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Thread: EMTs/Firearms/ ER

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    EMTs/Firearms/ ER

    I was just curious if there are any EMTs in the group to answer this question. How are you gonna handle your response to a person carrying a firearm versus your handling of a hunter carrying a firearm (who may have had a heart attack-which isnt uncommon in WI). Are they treated differently?

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    Most of the time they would be handed over to responding law enforcement for safe keeping

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    Have been on the side of being a firefighter and also carrying, Most every time there is a police officer on site, I don't think it would be the end of the world to me if I needed emergency help and wasn't capable of doing this myself, if i was unarmed and had the fire and placed in care of the officer on site. I mean sometimes your clothes need to be cut, need to be med flighted, all depends on how serious the injuries and or if you are awake and capable of making decisions. What does everyone else think?

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    I was talking with a friend of mine who works at a local hospital. Hes been told that LE WONT take posessoin of a firearm found on a person brought to the ER(sounds like the local LE doesnt want to do it). The hospital has designated him as the one to take posession and place it in the safe (which the hospital has yet to purchase)

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    My frist post I thought you were refering to how EMS would handle the persons weapons.

    I have never seen a person handled any differant unless they are threat at the time.

    EMS are called all the time by LEOs to treat really bad guys that have been shot hurt ect. They all seem to get top rate EMS care as along as they are not a threat. Even then I seen EMS do there best to treat even combative people the best they can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GlockRDH View Post
    I was just curious if there are any EMTs in the group to answer this question. How are you gonna handle your response to a person carrying a firearm versus your handling of a hunter carrying a firearm (who may have had a heart attack-which isnt uncommon in WI). Are they treated differently?
    First I will say that all patients recieve the highest level of care possible. Any different would me illegal for EMTs.

    I am an EMT-Basic student and I have asked several local Paramedics what their protocol is for firearms and treatment. The general consensus is that we are to remove the firearm(s) and give them to the LEOs. This is to make the scene 'safe'. I am all for carrying and all but I dont want to deal with a person in a altered mental state and a knife or a gun. What I would do is ask a conscious patient if I could remove the holster and place it away from others. In the unconscious patient, I would simply cut the belt and remove holster/firearm together. Then turn said weapon/firearm/gun to the LEO to deal with.

    Again, I dont like to see anyone disarmed if they dont have to be, but until I knew what kind of mental state/pain this person was in, firearms off and secure. As far as EMTs carrying, I dont think many if any agencies would allow that.
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    Regular Member xd40arff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xd40 neenah View Post
    First I will say that all patients recieve the highest level of care possible. Any different would me illegal for EMTs.

    I am an EMT-Basic student and I have asked several local Paramedics what their protocol is for firearms and treatment. The general consensus is that we are to remove the firearm(s) and give them to the LEOs. This is to make the scene 'safe'. I am all for carrying and all but I dont want to deal with a person in a altered mental state and a knife or a gun. What I would do is ask a conscious patient if I could remove the holster and place it away from others. In the unconscious patient, I would simply cut the belt and remove holster/firearm together. Then turn said weapon/firearm/gun to the LEO to deal with.

    Again, I dont like to see anyone disarmed if they dont have to be, but until I knew what kind of mental state/pain this person was in, firearms off and secure. As far as EMTs carrying, I dont think many if any agencies would allow that.
    I have been an Career EMT/FF for several years. Several years before that as a Volunteer. Not sure where you are getting your "general consensus" from about turning over to LEO's. In SE WI, there are a few different Standard Operating Guidelines, all of which are very close to each other. As far as lawful encounters with a licensed person, the weapon is to be transported with the person, secured in a pelican case inside the ambulance which has been tamper proof tagged and the tag number placed on the chain of custody form with a witnessed signature. Local LEO's basically want nothing to do with the chain of custody of a lawful persons firearm. The chain of custody will then be signed for by the hospital, then secured by hospital security staff. As far as EMT's carrying, I know of some places that are allowing it, and some places that are not. Persons carrying unlawful firearms, or firearms disturbance type calls will be handled the same way as before.

    http://www.sertacwi.org/SERTAC.html - this organization has comprised some suggested guidelines for legally concealed weapons, not available on their site at this time. But their contact info is there.

    Paitients lawfully carrying, but appearing to have an altered level of conciouseness will be handled according to the situation. Basically no different from how I would have handled a call on 10/31/11 as opposed to 11/1/11.

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    I was a FF/ EMT for 27 yrs. Before CCW we regularly gave firearms to LEO's. Times change. Talking with some friends still in the business. The Leo's and EMS positions have changed. Firearms are personnel property just like a wallet. The firearms will go to the hospital just like everything else. Most hospitals will have some type of locker for them and will be returned to the owner when discharged. How ever some of the Hospitals have yet to set a policy, which means they will not know what to do until they get a firearm. We transported to 3 hospitals in our service are. 2 have lockers and a return policy and the 3rd has not done anything yet. This is something that will have to be worked out. Not a good answer but it is the best that I have. I understand that some services are contacting gun shops to get some training on handling firearms safely. Simply put Leo's do not take personnel property unless it is used in a crime. EMS will take the Firearms to hospital and the Hospital will have to deal with it.
    Last edited by Grizz272; 11-06-2011 at 02:25 PM.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xd40arff View Post
    I have been an Career EMT/FF for several years. Several years before that as a Volunteer. Not sure where you are getting your "general consensus" from about turning over to LEO's. In SE WI, there are a few different Standard Operating Guidelines, all of which are very close to each other. As far as lawful encounters with a licensed person, the weapon is to be transported with the person, secured in a pelican case inside the ambulance which has been tamper proof tagged and the tag number placed on the chain of custody form with a witnessed signature. Local LEO's basically want nothing to do with the chain of custody of a lawful persons firearm. The chain of custody will then be signed for by the hospital, then secured by hospital security staff. As far as EMT's carrying, I know of some places that are allowing it, and some places that are not. Persons carrying unlawful firearms, or firearms disturbance type calls will be handled the same way as before.

    http://www.sertacwi.org/SERTAC.html - this organization has comprised some suggested guidelines for legally concealed weapons, not available on their site at this time. But their contact info is there.

    Paitients lawfully carrying, but appearing to have an altered level of conciouseness will be handled according to the situation. Basically no different from how I would have handled a call on 10/31/11 as opposed to 11/1/11.
    If LEO want nothing to do with it, would they alteast unload it for a EMT/FF that does not have sufficient knowledge of handguns before it is secured as SOP's mandate?

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    Regular Member xd40arff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    If LEO want nothing to do with it, would they alteast unload it for a EMT/FF that does not have sufficient knowledge of handguns before it is secured as SOP's mandate?
    I may have mis-stated that. They want nothing to do with taking custody of the firearm. They will assist with unloading / securing in the case if needed. However SERTAC guidelines are stating to leave it in the condition found, then place it into the secured pelican case. Muzzle direction is marked on the case, with the muzzle direction in a safe direction at all times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xd40arff View Post
    I have been an Career EMT/FF for several years. Several years before that as a Volunteer. Not sure where you are getting your "general consensus" from about turning over to LEO's. In SE WI, there are a few different Standard Operating Guidelines, all of which are very close to each other. As far as lawful encounters with a licensed person, the weapon is to be transported with the person, secured in a pelican case inside the ambulance which has been tamper proof tagged and the tag number placed on the chain of custody form with a witnessed signature. Local LEO's basically want nothing to do with the chain of custody of a lawful persons firearm. The chain of custody will then be signed for by the hospital, then secured by hospital security staff. As far as EMT's carrying, I know of some places that are allowing it, and some places that are not. Persons carrying unlawful firearms, or firearms disturbance type calls will be handled the same way as before.

    http://www.sertacwi.org/SERTAC.html - this organization has comprised some suggested guidelines for legally concealed weapons, not available on their site at this time. But their contact info is there.

    Paitients lawfully carrying, but appearing to have an altered level of conciouseness will be handled according to the situation. Basically no different from how I would have handled a call on 10/31/11 as opposed to 11/1/11.
    I was talking, specifically, with the police chief and EMT-I in Blackcreek(?). He is an aid to our EMT class. He was stating that his agency's policy is not to transport firearms in the ambulance. I also spoke with some paramedics working for Gold Cross. They said the same thing. So, with the information that I was given, I would in fact call that a general consensus. I understand that LEOs dont want to have to handle legal firearms but they then have the option to deliver them to the hospital to be stored with the other belongings.

    Just sayin.
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    Been on the fire dept but know most all the local emts. few departments around here all say there is no firearms allowed on the rig, unless its police asking injured person question, etc. And wife works at the hospital, there is no policy or rules for firearms. looks like there needs to be something set up. Been reading that there are a lot of departments that don't allow firearms on the rigs, and quite a few hospitals don't have anything set up to handle firearms.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xd40arff
    SERTAC guidelines are stating to leave it in the condition found, then place it into the secured pelican case. Muzzle direction is marked on the case, with the muzzle direction in a safe direction at all times.
    That's kinda cool. Overkill, but cool. If there's no finger on the trigger, it's not gonna go bang.
    This is an interesting question, though. Will do some calling around to MKE-area hospitals & ambulance services & see what the policies are.
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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    .... If there's no finger on the trigger, it's not gonna go bang.
    ....
    Only if the gun is in good repair and unmodified. This is a stupid policy. If an EMT takes a gun from a gangbanger's crotch and expects it to be on "safe" and in factory approved condition he is gambling with people's lives, in contrast to his stated goals.... If the Penguin case is dropped and the right factors are present, the gun WILL discharge.
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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    I think a couple of you mistook the intent of my question...im wondering if the SITUATIONS are treated differently...(hunter having had heart attack, rifle laying there VS. another person carrying a firearm)... Im in health care also, i realize that EVERY patient recieves the best quality care at all times.

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