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Thread: OC in Church

  1. #1
    Regular Member Steeler-gal's Avatar
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    Question OC in Church

    I understand that the law in VA doesn't prohibit from OCing in Church. I'm curious to know how many of you OC in church. I haven't yet. I have been looking around and don't see anyone in my church OCing. Do you OC?

  2. #2
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Virginia law does prohibit it.

    § 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

    If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.


    Now, the AG has opined that self defense is a "good and sufficient reason", but again, that is only his opinion (which does carry some weight). I would think a judge would follow along, but......
    Last edited by ProShooter; 11-07-2011 at 11:31 AM.
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    Regular Member Steeler-gal's Avatar
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    Oh, wow. I stand corrected. Thanks!
    No wonder I don't see anyone CCing.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    That's not a blanket prohibition, it's a conditional prohibition.

    "Good and sufficient reason" being subjective (as you imply) does not mean that the AG's opinion is flawed or invalid, only that you should probably consider the character of your congregation and your pastor, perhaps going as far as attending a meeting of the elders/vestry and asking their opinion of the practice.

    Because the only way you're going to get nicked for it is if someone calls the cops on you.
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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    That's not a blanket prohibition, it's a conditional prohibition.

    "Good and sufficient reason" being subjective (as you imply) does not mean that the AG's opinion is flawed or invalid, only that you should probably consider the character of your congregation and your pastor, perhaps going as far as attending a meeting of the elders/vestry and asking their opinion of the practice.

    Because the only way you're going to get nicked for it is if someone calls the cops on you.
    Or if there happens to be an anti-gun cop in attendance with you at the same time...

    TFred

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Somebody just needs to do it and get arrested. Then a court can decide what "good and sufficient" reason is since the legislature doesn't care to define it. By the way, I am not suggesting anyone volunteer. I am not religious, but my wife is and we took our son to a church-sponsored festival on Halloween. I OCed without incident.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Or if there happens to be an anti-gun cop in attendance with you at the same time...
    In uniform? On duty? In CHURCH?!?!

    Unlikely.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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    I've OCed at mine, but not while services are going on. The only other OC I've seen at church during services was by the VASP and local yokels who were in attendance on their way to or from duty.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    In uniform? On duty? In CHURCH?!?!

    Unlikely.
    I can think of a number of times where someone may be on duty in uniform in church. Some I have even done myself.
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  10. #10
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    I can think of a number of times where someone may be on duty in uniform in church. Some I have even done myself.
    Funeral?

    And let's not forget that the "prohibition" is specifically confined to during worship service, not for ancillary uses of the property and/or building.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Sitting there Sunday just after they collected offering, and thought to myself 'holy cr*p, it would be bad to kill some burglar in church...'.
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    Didn't the AG issue an opinion just this year that said that self-defense/personal protect = "good and sufficient reason" to carry in church during a service?

    That being said, it is may opinion, as well as the opinion of at least a few others on this forum, that OC might distract people from the service, and it would therefore be best to CC, if possible. Some might say that this is "giving in" to people who are uncomfortable around guns, but, when it comes to being at church on Sunday morning, I see it as being willing to respect others, so that we can all focus on what it is that we are there for in the first place.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Cool

    Yes, and James mentioned it above.

    That being said, I would tend to agree with your assertion except for the fact that my personal "feelings" on the matter should not impact someone else's RIGHT to do as they please.

    I have to stick to that tenet because I demand it of everyone else.

    Church is a place for worship and if you worship with a bunch of ninnies and namby-pambies (as most of us probably do, unfortunately) then you do what you feel is best to preserve the sanctity of the cage you built for the Lord.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Virginia law does prohibit it.

    § 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

    If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.


    Now, the AG has opined that self defense is a "good and sufficient reason", but again, that is only his opinion (which does carry some weight). I would think a judge would follow along, but......
    The good and sufficient reasons do abound.
    http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...sive-list.html

    I do admit that I CC in a house of worship as a personal practical choice.
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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VApatriot View Post
    SNIP That being said, it is may opinion, as well as the opinion of at least a few others on this forum, that OC might distract people from the service, and it would therefore be best to CC, if possible. Some might say that this is "giving in" to people who are uncomfortable around guns, but, when it comes to being at church on Sunday morning, I see it as being willing to respect others, so that we can all focus on what it is that we are there for in the first place.
    Does OC distract people watching movies, eating dinner, walking down the street, etc? No, so why should it be any different at a church. People won't get used to it unless people do it.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  16. #16
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    Funeral?

    Yes, among other times.


    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    And let's not forget that the "prohibition" is specifically confined to during worship service, not for ancillary uses of the property and/or building.
    No, the prohibition applies to a time when a meeting for religious purposes is taking place.

    Confession
    Choir practice
    Pastor/deacons discussing an upcoming service

    I'm sure there's more.
    Last edited by ProShooter; 11-07-2011 at 04:34 PM.
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  17. #17
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    No, the prohibition applies to a time when a meeting for religious purposes is taking place.

    Confession
    Choir practice
    Pastor/deacons discussing an upcoming service
    I believe you are giving a MUCH broader meaning to "religious" purposes (read: worship) than was intended... HOWEVER, I would not put it past LE nor the courts to interpret at will and place the burden on the citizen.
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  18. #18
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    I believe you are giving a MUCH broader meaning to "religious" purposes (read: worship) than was intended... HOWEVER, I would not put it past LE nor the courts to interpret at will and place the burden on the citizen.
    I don't think its broad at all. If 10 people get together for choir practice, is that not a "meeting for religious purposes" ? Nothing says that they have to go through a whole service. It simply says a meeting for religious purposes. Common sense would dictate that my examples count.
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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Virginia law does prohibit it.

    § 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

    If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.


    .
    This is pretty much the way it is in Mississippi too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steeler-gal View Post
    Oh, wow. I stand corrected. Thanks!
    No wonder I don't see anyone CCing.
    How would you know if they were "CCing" or did you mean "OCing"?

  21. #21
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Virginia law does prohibit it.

    § 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

    If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.


    Now, the AG has opined that self defense is a "good and sufficient reason", but again, that is only his opinion (which does carry some weight). I would think a judge would follow along, but......
    Quote Originally Posted by MilProGuy View Post
    This is pretty much the way it is in Mississippi too.

    millproguy has been schooled in the mississippi forum about LOTS of things!

    he should know by now, that it is NOT pretty much as it is in mississippi!

    read this thread and see that it is NOT ILLEGAL to open carry in church in mississippi!

    of coarse that fact will not help milproguy because he will not open carry.

    How many are active here in Mississippi? Answer Up

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  22. #22
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Since the phrase "good and sufficient reason" is not definitive, then it is going to be left up to open interpretation by whomever: police, a judge, and attorney, etc. I think most folks on this site would consider that the protection of their lives and those of their loved ones more than suffices for "good and sufficient reason".

    So since this phraseology is so nebulous and open ended, then why not just CC in these surrounds and be done with it? You would clearly not be definitively breaking any laws, only interpretively. So not seen is not an issue.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 11-08-2011 at 07:37 AM.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Virginia law does prohibit it.

    § 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

    If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.


    Now, the AG has opined that self defense is a "good and sufficient reason", but again, that is only his opinion (which does carry some weight). I would think a judge would follow along, but......
    Quote Originally Posted by MilProGuy View Post
    This is pretty much the way it is in Mississippi too.
    Cite please.
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  24. #24
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Common sense would dictate that my examples count.
    I did not disagree with the possibility that your perception would be the one with which an officer or a fellow churchgoer might side.

    If anything, this exchange only further illustrates that "definitions" are not definitive. In a brief search of the state code I could find no entry for "religious purposes" but I would not personally consider choir practice nor a board meeting as such.

    Perhaps we should ask the AG to issue an opinion on that, too.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
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  25. #25
    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Cite please.
    Common sense.

    If it is illegal to carry a handgun / firearm into a house of worship concealed, it is illegal to openly carry a handgun / firearm into a house of worship openly.
    Last edited by MilProGuy; 11-08-2011 at 11:26 AM.
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