I WAS working the polling station untill about 30 min ago OC related

ProShooter · Nov 8, 2011

I had a feeling that this would happen.

I spent alot of time (my own choice) re-writing the policy on weapons during elections because it was wrong. Now, my angle was that of voters with guns not necessarily officers of elections who were carrying, although I think the same rules apply.

My contact is no longer with the agency so I don't really have much of a dog in the fight. I am anxious however to see how this plays out.

Pagan · Nov 8, 2011

I went to Va. Beach yesterday to pick up my mother, so she could watch my 3 little ones, while I was at the polling station all day.

Then I had to explaine why I was home when they all woke up this morning, since I had been talking about the upcoming election for a while now. It is all quite embarrassing to be honest; to have to explain to my children that daddy was sent home and even harder to encourage faith and trust in our system of government when a violation of our basic God given rights hits so close to home.

wylde007 · Nov 8, 2011

Pagan said:
... and even harder to encourage faith and trust in our system of government when a violation of our basic God given rights hits so close to home.

Better that they learn sooner rather than later.

Mine will.

2a4all · Nov 8, 2011

thebigsd said:
I am here at my polling place now. I am an Assistant Chief in Lorton. I am Open Carrying a full-size Springfield XD-45. I have had a couple questions but no issues. I will give a full update on my thread at the end of the night.

I will say this. It is 100% legal to open carry while serving as an election officer. In my opinion, they did not have grounds to ask you to leave. I did some extensve research and found no prohibition.

Edit: In order to remove a person from the polling place they must be disturbing or interferin with the election. It requires the majority of the election officers to ask a person to leave. I am not sure how much authority the registrar has in this regard.

§ 24.2-607. Prohibited conduct; intimidation of voters; disturbance of election; how prevented; penalties.

A. It shall be unlawful for any person to hinder, intimidate, or interfere with any qualified voter so as to prevent the voter from casting a secret ballot. The officers of election may order a person violating this subsection to cease such action. If such person does not promptly desist, the officers of election, or a majority of them, may order the arrest of such person by any person authorized by law to make arrests, and, by their warrant, may commit him to the county or city jail, as the case may be, for a period not exceeding twenty-four hours. Any person violating this subsection shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

B. No person shall conduct himself in a noisy or riotous manner at or about the polls so as to disturb the election or insult or abuse an officer of election. Any person authorized to make arrests may forthwith arrest a person engaging in such conduct and bring him before the officers of the election, and they, by their warrant, may commit him to the county or city jail, as the case may be, for a period not exceeding twenty-four hours; but they shall permit him to vote if he is so entitled.

Pagan, this statute is very subjective. All it would take is for someone to complain (which it appears did happen), and you become the object of unwanted attention. The "any person" term doesn't appear to exclude officers of election. If the registrar is in error, she'll be able to claim "it's on the side of caution".

MSC 45ACP · Nov 8, 2011

I'm really saddened to see this happen to you, Ryan. I can't carry to the polling place as it is at an Elementary school. I agree that "Carole" just left a steaming pile upon your head. We can only hope you are able to return the favor in Civil Court or a public apology at the very least.

Good Luck, Brother.

Mike

Pagan · Nov 8, 2011

2a4all said:
Pagan, this statute is very subjective. All it would take is for someone to complain (which it appears did happen), and you become the object of unwanted attention. The "any person" term doesn't appear to exclude officers of election. If the registrar is in error, she'll be able to claim "it's on the side of caution".

I was neither HINDERING nor INTERFERRING and certainly not INTIMIDATING anybody, from the few voters I was able to check in, ALL of them were polite, friendly even, and seemingly in good spirits. And since I was seated behind a table and a computer with my weapon only visible from very close proximity, highly doubtful any non officers were even aware of my it.

thebigsd · Nov 8, 2011

Pagan said:
I was neither HINDERING nor INTERFERRING and certainly not INTIMIDATING anybody, from the few voters I was able to check in, ALL of them were polite, friendly even, and seemingly in good spirits. And since I was seated behind a table and a computer with my weapon only visible from very close proximity, highly doubtful any non officers were even aware of my it.

I agree. The hindering or intimidating is directly related to their ability to vote. If you are not coercing or bothering a VOTER then they should not ask you to leave. My understanding is that it takes a majority of the officers in order to ask you to leave. Unauthorized individuals can be asked to leave if they are loitering. As an election officer you are authorized to be at the polling place. I think this registrar overstepped her bounds.

MSC 45ACP · Nov 8, 2011

The Chief Registrar (or whatever her exhalted title is) certainly overstepped her bounds. I hope she gets the politically incorrect version of a mammogram performed by someone higher up the food chain for violating Ryan's rights and embarrassing him in public!!!

Pagan · Nov 8, 2011

I was just informed via phone call that as an Election Officer, I am an employee of the electoral board, and subject to their rules of employment, even if I'm unaware of them.

I just had a thought don't rules for employment have to be written down somewhere? Or can they just be made up on the fly?

627PCFan · Nov 8, 2011

Bump it up the line a bit - Ken' Cuccinelli. Hed love to get a hold of this for a media standpoint-

grylnsmn · Nov 8, 2011

Pagan said:
I was just informed via phone call that as an Election Officer, I am an employee of the electoral board, and subject to their rules of employment, even if I'm unaware of them.

Make sure you request dated, written documentation of those rules. If the rule of employment isn't documented, then it isn't actually a rule.

skidmark · Nov 8, 2011

We may want to wait for User or another of the attorneys here to weigh in on

§ 24.2-607. Prohibited conduct; intimidation of voters; disturbance of election; how prevented; penalties.

A. It shall be unlawful for any person to hinder, intimidate, or interfere with any qualified voter so as to prevent the voter from casting a secret ballot. The officers of election may order a person violating this subsection to cease such action. If such person does not promptly desist, the officers of election, or a majority of them, may order the arrest of such person by any person authorized by law to make arrests, and, by their warrant, may commit him to the county or city jail, as the case may be, for a period not exceeding twenty-four hours. Any person violating this subsection shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

B. No person shall conduct himself in a noisy or riotous manner at or about the polls so as to disturb the election or insult or abuse an officer of election. Any person authorized to make arrests may forthwith arrest a person engaging in such conduct and bring him before the officers of the election, and they, by their warrant, may commit him to the county or city jail, as the case may be, for a period not exceeding twenty-four hours; but they shall permit him to vote if he is so entitled.

and any case law related to it, but it seems to me that there specific elements to the crmes stated in Section A and Section B. My guess is that the actions are going to be defined mostly by common law notwithstanding that there is a statutory definition of "riot" because the word used is an adverb and not a verb.

I strongly suggest asking all the other folks working at the polling place to give you written statements about what they heard and saw from the time you arrived until the time you left. Having contemporaneous statements that fail to show you committing any of the elements listed in the statute will be very helpful as your resolution of the situation progresses.

Please do not let this get swept under the table. Folks called me "hero" and all sorts of other stuff for standing up against a jackbooted hired thug. Here you are dealing with an official one.

stay safe.

Glockster · Nov 8, 2011

Pagan said:
I was just informed via phone call that as an Election Officer, I am an employee of the electoral board, and subject to their rules of employment, even if I'm unaware of them.

I just had a thought don't rules for employment have to be written down somewhere? Or can they just be made up on the fly?

Wow, color me silly I guess as I just assumed that these folks were volunteers!

Pagan · Nov 8, 2011

I was told that it was U.S.C 1973ib and i need to go to a law library to get the rules, federal law for state issue, sounds fishy.

peter nap · Nov 8, 2011

Pagan said:
I was just informed via phone call that as an Election Officer, I am an employee of the electoral board, and subject to their rules of employment, even if I'm unaware of them.

I just had a thought don't rules for employment have to be written down somewhere? Or can they just be made up on the fly?

If that is the case that makes you a State Employee and yes, in that case they must be written down.

Skidmark...
Hero isn't what Poindexter's been calling you!:lol::lol::lol::lol:

jmelvin · Nov 8, 2011

Here's the statute for reference from Cornell Law:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/usc_sec_42_00001973---i000-.html

§ 1973i. Prohibited acts

(b) Intimidation, threats, or coercion
No person, whether acting under color of law or otherwise, shall intimidate, threaten, or coerce, or attempt to intimidate, threaten, or coerce any person for voting or attempting to vote, or intimidate, threaten, or coerce, or attempt to intimidate, threaten, or coerce any person for urging or aiding any person to vote or attempt to vote, or intimidate, threaten, or coerce any person for exercising any powers or duties under section 1973a (a), 1973d,[1] 1973f, 1973g,[1] 1973h, or 1973j (e) of this title.

Directly from the US Government: 42 USC 1973I
http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t41t42+3177+0++() A

Glockster · Nov 8, 2011

Pagan said:
I was told that it was U.S.C 1973ib and i need to go to a law library to get the rules, federal law for state issue, sounds fishy.

[Deleted - paste wasn't complete, and see that jmelvin was a moment faster on the trigger anyway!]

skidmark · Nov 8, 2011

Pagan said:
I was told that it was U.S.C 1973ib and i need to go to a law library to get the rules, federal law for state issue, sounds fishy.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode42/usc_sec_42_00001973---i000-.html

§ 1973i. Prohibited acts

How Current is This?

(a) Failure or refusal to permit casting or tabulation of vote No person acting under color of law shall fail or refuse to permit any person to vote who is entitled to vote under any provision of subchapters I–A to I–C of this chapter or is otherwise qualified to vote, or willfully fail or refuse to tabulate, count, and report such person’s vote.

(b) Intimidation, threats, or coercion No person, whether acting under color of law or otherwise, shall intimidate, threaten, or coerce, or attempt to intimidate, threaten, or coerce any person for voting or attempting to vote, or intimidate, threaten, or coerce, or attempt to intimidate, threaten, or coerce any person for urging or aiding any person to vote or attempt to vote, or intimidate, threaten, or coerce any person for exercising any powers or duties under section 1973a (a), 1973d,[SUP][1][/SUP] 1973f, 1973g,[SUP][1][/SUP] 1973h, or 1973j (e) of this title.

It has specific elements, none of which I see apply to your reported behavior.

stay safe.

ETA - not fishy at all, just grasping for straws.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/...-generally-light-turnout-expected-ar-1443788/

9:17 a.m.
Voting is under way across Virginia today in state and local races.

Without any statewide or U.S. offices at stake, turnout is likely to be light, ....

They are looking for a way to make this as big as they can by pulling in the Voting Rights Act when state law would do just fine in being totally inapplicable to your reported situation.

grylnsmn · Nov 8, 2011

jmelvin said:
Here's the statute for reference from Cornell Law:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/usc_sec_42_00001973---i000-.html

§ 1973i. Prohibited acts

(b) Intimidation, threats, or coercion
No person, whether acting under color of law or otherwise, shall intimidate, threaten, or coerce, or attempt to intimidate, threaten, or coerce any person for voting or attempting to vote, or intimidate, threaten, or coerce, or attempt to intimidate, threaten, or coerce any person for urging or aiding any person to vote or attempt to vote, or intimidate, threaten, or coerce any person for exercising any powers or duties under section 1973a (a), 1973d,[1] 1973f, 1973g,[1] 1973h, or 1973j (e) of this title.

Darnit, you beat me to posting that.

If that's what they are going to try to claim, then they have a flimsy claim and an uphill battle. It's pretty well established in Virginia law that the mere act of being armed does not constitute threats, intimidation, or coercion.

thebigsd · Nov 8, 2011

This is User's post from my thread about election officers.

user said:
I researched that entire issue a couple of years ago for some folks in Fauquier. I don't remember the details, but the head election person (I've forgotten the title) is a law enforcement officer for all purposes while engaged in his official duties. An election officer is just plain folks with some obligation to enforce rules, and can pretty much carry where just plain folks can carry.

I argue that a building is not a "school"; a school is a collection of people, as a "court" is the name of a procedural event, not a place; therefore, a "polling place" is not a "school" while the area is in use as a polling place, even if school is going on in other parts of the building (there is no school on election day where I live). There are no cases saying so, however, and I wouldn't want to be the one to test the hypothesis.

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