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Thread: Holster Requirements - Research Question

  1. #1
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    Holster Requirements - Research Question

    If this should be in a different forum, please move it accordingly.

    Recently our state House of Representatives did an interim study on gun rights, open carry being one of the things discussed. One of the speakers said there were some states that had holster requirements. Such as the holster had to use kind of retention device. In the year or so I have been reading these forums, I can't recall having seen anyone quote a state law that mentions a holster requirement.

    Does anyone know of a state that has this type of requirement? If so can you cite please?

    Also, is there somewhere on this site that links to state specific open carry laws? I would like to compile a list of them for reference. As well as if no state has a holster requirement, I would like to submit them along with that fact to the committee that did the interim study. The speaker that said this said up front he was not in favor of open carry, but more fixing our concealed carry laws to not criminalize the accidental showing.

    Thx in advance.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    First, here is a link to the open carry laws by state. Click on the state and it will bring up the detail about that state.

    http://opencarry.org/opencarry.html

    Second, Virginia has no holster requirements. Perhaps folks can chime in regarding their state.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    IF someone tried to introduce a specific requirement for holsters, the industry would set up an uproar.

    There might be state-level regulations for what law enforcement or armed security must use, but trying to impose specific requirements for what folks not bound by such already-existing restrictions should be a career ending move.

    All this is said without bothering to do any research to see if there actually is a law anywhere imposing some restriction on what kind/type/style of holster can be worn by law-abiding citizens who are not involved in a trade already subject to regulation.

    stay safe.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    PLEASE DISREGARD EVERYTHING I WROTE HERE AND SEE MY FOLLOW-UP POST BELOW.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrdware View Post
    ....

    As well as if no state has a holster requirement, I would like to submit them along with that fact to the committee that did the interim study. The speaker that said this said up front he was not in favor of open carry, but more fixing our concealed carry laws to not criminalize the accidental showing.

    Thx in advance.
    If this politician is really concerned about fixing the concealed law so as to not criminalize an accidental exposure, then he ought to concentrate on wording that would do that. Anything about regulating the level of retention or anything else is proof that he is a gun grabber.

    The fact that he is not in favor of OC is just another indication that he is a gun grabber. If he's afraid that guns will start jumping out of holsters that are not hidden by imposing some required level of retention he needs to be reminded that Level I seems has an excellent track record of preventing that from happening.

    Finally, if he's against OC then he really needs to address the fact that there are literally thousands of folks in OK who are already OCing without scaring the horses or causing the women to stampede - they are cops and armed security guards. If he's against OC then he needs to get that situation fixed.

    Can you tell I'm sort of fed up with folks like that politician?

    stay safe.
    Last edited by skidmark; 11-09-2011 at 11:45 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    If this politician is really concerned about fixing the concealed law so as to not criminalize an accidental exposure, then he ought to concentrate on wording that would do that. Anything about regulating the level of retention or anything else is proof that he is a gun grabber.

    The fact that he is not in favor of OC is just another indication that he is a gun grabber. If he's afraid that guns will start jumping out of holsters that are not hidden by imposing some required level of retention he needs to be reminded that Level I seems has an excellent track record of preventing that from happening.

    Finally, if he's against OC then he really needs to address the fact that there are literally thousands of folks in OK who are already OCing without scaring the horses or causing the women to stampede - they are cops and armed security guards. If he's against OC then he needs to get that situation fixed.

    Can you tell I'm sort of fed up with folks like that politician?

    stay safe.
    Unfortunately it wasn't a politician doing this, it was a professor of law, and while I agree with him on his wanting to fix the CC laws, I find it counter productive for him to be the primary speaker in a gun rights study that was brought on because the state was trying to pass an open carry law. I think some of what he was saying was incorrect, hopefully due to his not knowing, but maybe also by pushing his own agenda.

    One of the other things he spoke about were gun grabs. He did make the comment that there were some media reports (that he could not cite) about gun grabs from OC LACs. I have no idea where he got this information from .

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    PLEASE DISREGARD EVERYTHING I WROTE HERE AND SEE MY FOLLOW-UP POST BELOW.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrdware View Post
    Unfortunately it wasn't a politician doing this, it was a professor of law, and while I agree with him on his wanting to fix the CC laws, I find it counter productive for him to be the primary speaker in a gun rights study that was brought on because the state was trying to pass an open carry law. I think some of what he was saying was incorrect, hopefully due to his not knowing, but maybe also by pushing his own agenda.

    Professors are found at colleges/universities. Colleges/universities are predominantly bastions of leftist liberal, socialist idealism. That makes the odds greatly in favor of the professor being a leftist liberal socialist idealist - unless he is too busy "occupying" something.

    Ask him to produce his bona fides in the firearms area, let alone the area of CC and OC. Actually, demand that he do so. He, as an academic, is obliged to do so or he violates certain canons of ethics and possibly contract obligations with his employer. If he cannot produce bona fides then he is worse that just some blowhard - he is a blowhard trying to pass his position as a professor off as having some import and having some specialized knowledge of the issue. In other words, a fraud. Don't be afraid to call him that - to his face and in the press.


    One of the other things he spoke about were gun grabs. He did make the comment that there were some media reports (that he could not cite) about gun grabs from OC LACs. I have no idea where he got this information from .
    There is an unofficial reward of (at last check) a three-figure sum being offered for any documented proof of a gun grab from an OCing LAC. That same reward is available to any documented case of a LOC OCer being shot first during the commission of a crime. Call the guy's bluff - ask him for the documentation of the media reports and tell him (preferably in public with the press in attendance) of the reward and ask why he is not willing to apply for it.

    I try to avoid finger-pointing (yes, in my case that is a bad pun) and accusing someone of anything without some basic research and evidence to back me up. But this is a case for which I will make an exception. This professor has too much going against him just from the brief description provided to not call him a fraud and accuse him of academic misrepresentation.

    Please have the courage to call him out.

    stay safe.
    Last edited by skidmark; 11-09-2011 at 11:47 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    There is an unofficial reward of (at last check) a three-figure sum being offered for any documented proof of a gun grab from an OCing LAC. That same reward is available to any documented case of a LOC OCer being shot first during the commission of a crime. Call the guy's bluff - ask him for the documentation of the media reports and tell him (preferably in public with the press in attendance) of the reward and ask why he is not willing to apply for it.

    I try to avoid finger-pointing (yes, in my case that is a bad pun) and accusing someone of anything without some basic research and evidence to back me up. But this is a case for which I will make an exception. This professor has too much going against him just from the brief description provided to not call him a fraud and accuse him of academic misrepresentation.

    Please have the courage to call him out.

    stay safe.
    If anyone has a link to the reward information I would appreciate it.

    I am slowly working through his presentation to make sure I hit everything in a single swipe. Going to send an email to all the reps that were part of the interim study.

    hrdware

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Follow-up post

    This is the follow-up post.

    First, I wish to publicly apologize to Professor Michael P. O'Shea for questioning his bona fides. I should also have done my research before I shot off my mouth about his most likely being a leftist liberal socialist idealist because the record seems to suggest otherwise. I am truly sorry for my behavior and humbly apologize.

    However, I do not withdraw my accusation that Professor O'Shea is a fraud. After reviewing a fair representative sample of his scholarly work (as found at the OKCU School of Law web site) it seems that Professor O'Shea has done quite a bit of scholarly work regarding the Second Amendment and is generally on the same side of the RKBA fence as the rest of us here. He has done some research into the state courts' opinions about RKBA that even I was not aware of, and makes several convincing arguments as to why laws such as are found in Illinois, and Chicago particularly, and New Your City are out of step with the mainstream of judicial and legislative thought.

    It is not a matter of notwithstanding the above, but precisely because of the above that I refuse to withdraw my accusation that Professor O'Shea is a fraud. Being as aware as he is of the state courts' positions vis a vis RKBA and the concept of Open Carry, his reluctance to support OC can be concluded to be no more than personal opinion hiding behind the skirts of scholarly work. Even in his review of the issue of Federalism as it applies to RKBA he reaches the conclusion that even with intermediate scrutiny at the state/local level there is little to support a prohibition against OC. Further, he freely admits that the "tactical advantage" of CC is not empirically established and only a cultural artifact of the CC side of the fence.

    stay safe.
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    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrdware View Post
    If anyone has a link to the reward information I would appreciate it.

    I am slowly working through his presentation to make sure I hit everything in a single swipe. Going to send an email to all the reps that were part of the interim study.

    hrdware
    I am afraid I cannot provide you with a direct link to the reward offer*. However, I will personally guarantee an amount of $100.00 for either a verified gun grab** or a OCer was shot first*** criminal event. If anyone wishes, I will agree to escrow that sum.

    stay safe.

    * - I will ask my "partners in crime" to come and provide additional back-up regarding the existence of the reward offer. One of them may recall the precise source of the offer.

    ** - A gun grab is not a situation where an OCer was robbed and among the personal property taken was their handgun, but a direct gun grab where the focus and intent was to obtain the OCer's handgun.

    *** - to qualify there needs to be proof that the criminal intentionally first shot the OCer before proceeding to commit the base criminal act.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  10. #10
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrdware View Post
    If anyone has a link to the reward information I would appreciate it.

    I am slowly working through his presentation to make sure I hit everything in a single swipe. Going to send an email to all the reps that were part of the interim study.

    hrdware
    The reward, though seldom mentioned, was thousands of dollars of "gotcha" satisfaction.

    I may well be the originator of these OC Challenges - any prior posting of such would predate dirt.

    Without further adieu, for your consideration I offer both.

    1) Show me one (1) instance in modern times anywhere in these United States where an honest OCer has ever been preemptively taken out. Verifiable cites required. Note that LEOs, security officers and military are excluded.

    2) Show me one (1) instance in modern times anywhere in these United States where an honest OCer has ever been the victim of a gun grab/snatch while going about his/her normal daily routine. Again, Verifiable cites required and LEOs, security officers and military are excluded. Several alleged instances have been pointed out in the past - they were either blatant set-ups or falsely reported.

    Both challenges were made in response to a falsely manufactured feeling that OC was not safe and as such required controls.

    Be aware of the hidden "fish hook" in the challenges as actually finding one (someday it will happen) will only add strength to the OC is safe and effective school. Why and how you say? It's simple really when you consider the number of people OCing times the number of potential opportunities (weeks, days and hours) that do not end in disaster, simply don't happen. It was suggested that when and if such did occur that the resultant numerical expression would be something in the neighborhood of 0.0001%. Pretty darn good odds, me thinks.

    Don't be suckered into defending/citing the position that OC is safe - instead required them to cite with authority why it is not and it must be pervasive. Don't forget to wish them luck!
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    I can haz reward...

    2 or 3 years ago,, there was a false report of a gun grab. the guy finally admitted it and showed the stolen gun to the cops.

    1 or 2 years ago,, a wisconsinite, known as the gun guy in his neighborhood, was walking, OCing and was robbed at gunpoint
    of his wallet, watch and pistol. this made many news reports and is fairly well documented.
    someone from OCDO said they knew him and that it was a true robbery.
    I and many others feel that it was a fake, settup to provide public pressure to advance the need for a CC law in that state.

    In this last year an OCer entered an eatery that serves alcohol in in a state that requires you to OC in that case.
    An enraged man confronted him, yelling that he was a Cop and that he was going to take his gun, that he was breaking the law.
    The OCer didnt believe him and wanted to defend his gun from being taken.
    The Fake Cop faught with the OCer and the OCer fought back. After much struggle the gun clattered across the floor away from them both.
    A waiter picked up the gun and put in the office.
    The real cops came and hauled away the fake cop.

    I would like to win the money you have offered and I do remember the old reward offer.
    I do not want either of them enough to actually dig back and find the cites to back up my recollections, but they are in here, somewhere.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  12. #12
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    2 or 3 years ago,, there was a false report of a gun grab. the guy finally admitted it and showed the stolen gun to the cops.

    1 or 2 years ago,, a wisconsinite, known as the gun guy in his neighborhood, was walking, OCing and was robbed at gunpoint
    of his wallet, watch and pistol. this made many news reports and is fairly well documented.
    someone from OCDO said they knew him and that it was a true robbery.
    I and many others feel that it was a fake, settup to provide public pressure to advance the need for a CC law in that state.

    In this last year an OCer entered an eatery that serves alcohol in in a state that requires you to OC in that case.
    An enraged man confronted him, yelling that he was a Cop and that he was going to take his gun, that he was breaking the law.
    The OCer didnt believe him and wanted to defend his gun from being taken.
    The Fake Cop faught with the OCer and the OCer fought back. After much struggle the gun clattered across the floor away from them both.
    A waiter picked up the gun and put in the office.
    The real cops came and hauled away the fake cop.

    I would like to win the money you have offered and I do remember the old reward offer.
    I do not want either of them enough to actually dig back and find the cites to back up my recollections, but they are in here, somewhere.
    None of these meet the criteria - documented w/verifiable cites + the circumstances refute the claim.

    Now go wash your hands. They're dirty.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    No you cannot haz reward

    1245A -

    Sorry, but not even close.

    First you fail to provide the required proof. Heck, we might as well go along with my saying I am a kind and pleasant fellow.

    Second, neither one qualifies as described by me or Grapeshot.

    Third, BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. You fail!

    Next contestant, please.

    stay safe.
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    If this qualifies I'll go dig up the info, but figured I would post about it first before digging everything up. About six months ago now (maybe slightly longer?) there was a person eating in a restaurant in either AZ or NM and was OCing (which I believe was technically illegal since the place served alcohol, but the OCer wasn't drinking). A man entered the restaurant, saw the gun, and proceeded to attempt to take the gun. He claimed he was from a federal agency (I believe he claimed to be DEA, but am not positive) before demanding the gun. The insane man (no really, he was insane and was killed in a shoot out with the cops a few months later) did not suceed in getting the gun (I believe a bystander managed to secure the gun while the two men were fighting over the gun), but he did attempt to take the gun.

    So granted it wasn't a successful grab, but it was an attempt and I didn't see the rules state that it had to be a successful gun grab.
    Last edited by Aknazer; 11-09-2011 at 02:13 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    If this qualifies I'll go dig up the info, but figured I would post about it first before digging everything up. About six months ago now (maybe slightly longer?) there was a person eating in a restaurant in either AZ or NM and was OCing (which I believe was technically illegal since the place served alcohol, but the OCer wasn't drinking). A man entered the restaurant, saw the gun, and proceeded to attempt to take the gun. He claimed he was from a federal agency (I believe he claimed to be DEA, but am not positive) before demanding the gun. The insane man (no really, he was insane and was killed in a shoot out with the cops a few months later) did not suceed in getting the gun (I believe a bystander managed to secure the gun while the two men were fighting over the gun), but he did attempt to take the gun.

    So granted it wasn't a successful grab, but it was an attempt and I didn't see the rules state that it had to be a successful gun grab.
    That's because all of the rules haven't been published. Decision of the judge(s) shall be final.

    Of course it has to be a successful gun grab. Otherwise it is NOT a gun grab.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Uh HUH!!

    post above has better memory than me!

    Police: 2 Wrestle Over Gun Inside Restaurant

    The fake cop DEA, had only one motive for the attack,,, To take away that gun!
    The faker did succeed during the fight to take possession of the gun, then passed it to someone else, who then gave it the the employee.
    watch the video, then read the story, very carefully!

    Now I really do want my reward!
    ive been belittled and challenged.
    i actually had to back up something i said.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  17. #17
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    post above has better memory than me!

    Police: 2 Wrestle Over Gun Inside Restaurant

    The fake cop DEA, had only one motive for the attack,,, To take away that gun!
    The faker did succeed during the fight to take possession of the gun, then passed it to someone else, who then gave it the the employee.
    watch the video, then read the story, very carefully!

    Now I really do want my reward!
    ive been belittled and challenged.
    i actually had to back up something i said.
    Nay, nay not belittled only challenged and a good find that was too - first time I have seen that one, though it was forecast to happen sometime, somewhere.

    You sir do win the prize (duplicate awards will NOT be made for the same occurrence). Do you prefer you "attaboys" all at one time or as an annuity? Congratulations you are now an honorary member of the 0.00001% community.

    For our listening audience, please tell us how this single act changes anything.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    If I remember correctly the OC'er was in violation of the NM law for carrying in an establishment that serves liqueur without a CC permit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrdware View Post
    If I remember correctly the OC'er was in violation of the NM law for carrying in an establishment that serves liqueur without a CC permit.
    This is correct.

    @Grapeshot even if the person doesn't succeed it is still an attempted gun grab. Granted you make the rules of the contest for if it has to be successful or not, but an attempted gun grab is still a gun grab. Oh and doesn't really change anything. It just shows how extremely rare it is that it took an insane person to attempt it; someone who shouldn't of even been on the street but he had a politically connect family member (I think it was his dad).

    Also when I posted about it I didn't realize defender had already posted the incident. Guess ill need to be quicker next time.

  20. #20
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The whole purpose of the challenge is to cause people to understand that these things are exceptionally rare - not normal occurrences. I think it does that admirably.

    Please note that the prize is being held for review in that there is a claim that the OCer was NOT and honest citizen by virtue of carrying in a manner not legal.

    "Attempted" is definitely not the same as accomplishing the goal i.e. attempted murder is not murder; attempted rape is not the same as rape; and an attempted gun grab/snatch is not a gun snatch.

    We understand each other and IMO can agree to agree.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  21. #21
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Nooooo!!!

    2) Show me one (1) instance in modern times anywhere in these United States where an honest OCer has ever been the victim of a gun grab/snatch while going about his/her normal daily routine. Again, Verifiable cites required and LEOs, security officers and military are excluded.


    I had a feeling that a NEW technicality would be injected in a vein attempt to derail my quest for 0.00001 prize!

    I contend that the OCer was honest. I contend that the OCer lacked sufficient knowledge to the crime of unlawful OC in that place.


    I can HAZ my prize now!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    2) Show me one (1) instance in modern times anywhere in these United States where an honest OCer has ever been the victim of a gun grab/snatch while going about his/her normal daily routine. Again, Verifiable cites required and LEOs, security officers and military are excluded.


    I had a feeling that a NEW technicality would be injected in a vein attempt to derail my quest for 0.00001 prize!

    I contend that the OCer was honest. I contend that the OCer lacked sufficient knowledge to the crime of unlawful OC in that place.


    I can HAZ my prize now!
    You can NOT haz a prize! Not now and probably not never, nohow!

    Proofs? Where are they?

    All the three of you have done is talk about something that you say happened. Where are the police reports and the court documents? Just because Grapeshot says that Aknazer correctly remembers that something you say happened is not verification. You are going to have to do all the required work or your failing grade remains a failing grade.

    Heck, even I can round up someone who will say they heard someone else say I was a nice guy. That does not prove I am.

    stay safe.
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    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    2) Show me one (1) instance in modern times anywhere in these United States where an honest OCer has ever been the victim of a gun grab/snatch while going about his/her normal daily routine. Again, Verifiable cites required and LEOs, security officers and military are excluded.


    I had a feeling that a NEW technicality would be injected in a vein attempt to derail my quest for 0.00001 prize!

    I contend that the OCer was honest. I contend that the OCer lacked sufficient knowledge to the crime of unlawful OC in that place.


    I can HAZ my prize now!
    So you contend that ignorance of the law is an excuse? I would agree, but hasten to add that it is not a valid one.

    I do note that you did not submit your entry on the required forms within the time frame allotted. Thank you for playing the game and better luck next time.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    north mason county, Washington, USA
    Posts
    4,381

    read all of the posts...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    post above has better memory than me!

    Police: 2 Wrestle Over Gun Inside Restaurant

    The fake cop DEA, had only one motive for the attack,,, To take away that gun!
    The faker did succeed during the fight to take possession of the gun, then passed it to someone else, who then gave it the the employee.
    watch the video, then read the story, very carefully!

    Now I really do want my reward!
    ive been belittled and challenged.
    i actually had to back up something i said.

    Now I can HAZ my prize!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    Now I can HAZ my prize!
    This is at least the second time you were told police and court reports are needed for verification purposes. It is apparent you just do not want to follow the rules.

    Not only can you NOT haz a prize, you are smitten with the bannschwerk of shame and may never play the game again.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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