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Thread: And the downword spiral begins....

  1. #1
    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    Thumbs down And the downword spiral begins....

    I have been watching with a serious amount of interest, and without saying a word, to the firearms community over the past few months. I have been paying close attention though I have remained silent. I will tell you one thing for sure, things have changed.

    It seems that this was all started to create a community of those that believed in what this country was founded on. And a way for people to band together and fight for one of our basic rights as human beings. One of the very things that our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines are not only fighting to protect, but dieing believing that this is the way it should be. But here at home, things are very different.

    There is celibration of the fact that we fell short of our goal of Constitutional Carry. There are tons of comments about how excited people are to get their permits, and how much they can't wait till theirs show up in the mail. Wisconsin Carry Inc has started offering courses and even started certifying instructors for their "Approved Free Course". What the He77 happend to fighting for our rights? What happened to guaranteed freedoms? What happened to instructors that wanted to help people save life instead of making money off people's fears and insecurities? What happened to being men and women of their words?

    I read the news reports, and I know all about the people that showed up in their WCI shirts like it was a badge of honor, when in fact it has become a symbol of not only the fact that there is a lot of fight left, but also a representation of people who immediately jumped on the band wagon and started creating courses to make as much money as possible before the details of what really happened came out. Isn't that right Auric, Hubert and Nik?

    For quite some time I have been telling people that this half assed training is going to get someone killed. There is nothing in this world that can teach you about self defense except actual experience. And VERY FEW instructors in this state have that experience. You can talk military, and LEO, and all that **** all you want, but the truth is that we sit in a totally different situation, even if we have that experience. The first time you have someone that defends themselves, it will cost us all. I really do hope that when that day comes, it does not cost innocent lives.

    Do I still train people? You bet your ass I do! But I am not teaching DOJ courses, or hunters safety, I am teaching people how to survive, and make sure they don't kill innocent people in the process. I still do it for free, and I will NEVER charge for what I do. I will not pat someone on the back for swooping in after the fact to try and get some popularity out of it. This has become a series of "Good Enough" statements in the firearms community. Good enough won't save your life, or the lives of your loved ones. It wont spare innocent people, or stop the lawsuits. It will get us all rite back where we started. There will never be groups again, because asking people to take care of their own costs is obviously too much to ask of people.

    There is no need to ask me if I am still training, or if I am still here. I am walking away from this community and I will continue this fight on my own if I have to. I don't need the backing of an organization, or a bunch of people that are willing to settle for good enough. I have taken the time and seen the truest of colors in this situation.

    And just so we are clear, if someone who thinks their training is good enough fires a weapon and a stray bullet comes in my direction, or that of my family, I will defend myself and my family!!!!!! Have a nice life all!!!
    I am Calico Jack,,,, And I approve this message!
    (Paid for by the blood of patriots, and Calico Jack Defense)
    Calico Jack Defense

  2. #2
    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    Chow!

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    A shall-issue license system is an incremental step towards Constitutional Carry. We do have a victory to rejoice in. We no longer have to do the Open Carry handgun shuffle every time we exit and enter a vehicle. A license now makes it lawful and practical to carry daily in order to better defend our families and ourselves


    In the few short months since Act 35 passed we now also have Act 51 passed and AB69 passed.


    You can't have it both ways.
    You can not claim to be the last person in support of Constitutional Carry and then bitch that the DOJ required training is not good enough and that there will be deaths because of it.
    So far as shooting back in the case of a stray bullet coming your way, I certainly hope that is not what you teach in your classes..
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 11-09-2011 at 03:38 PM.

  4. #4
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Zai Jian!
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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Hold on a second Calico Jack, everyone here is not happy about their "precious little licenses." No one here wants to be taxed to exercise a right. We all desire to have more training but some of us are having a hard enough time to afford the basic means of life. I, for one, desire more training. Unfortunately I do not have the funds to get more training at this time. I do hit the range every couple of weeks. I agree hitting a paper target does not prepare one for self defense, but it is better than not learning stance, breathing, sight picture, and trigger control.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  6. #6
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Dude. It's like D-Day.

    We won a major victory and now have a foothold in Germany.

    Could we have made it all the way to Berlin in a few weeks if it wasn't for that ***** Montgomery?

    Absofuckinglutely.


    Could we have had Constitutional Carry without Walker f*cking it up?


    Absofuckinglutely.


    Well. Nothing has changed. Can't you at least let us take in this victory? The War ain't over but we did win a huge battle. Huge. And if you have been lurking you would know we have been saying this. The war is not over.

    And as far as the training thing goes. I'm sure everyone here who sat through a class hardly thinks that equates to any training on your level. But we do have lives. It's not like we can drop everything, drive across the state and take days of training on a whim. And who said we will not pursue further training? This is only the beginning for most of us.

    So thrash us with a wet noodle all you want. Just seems like a lot of wasted energy.



    p.s. You know what. It WAS a good feeling to get that piece of plastic in the mail. It is a TROPHY that represents (to me) my small contribution to the fight.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 11-09-2011 at 03:53 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Lightbulb I Understand Your Thought Process But We Still ARE Fighting For Our Rights...

    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    I have been watching with a serious amount of interest, and without saying a word, to the firearms community over the past few months. I have been paying close attention though I have remained silent. I will tell you one thing for sure, things have changed.

    It seems that this was all started to create a community of those that believed in what this country was founded on. And a way for people to band together and fight for one of our basic rights as human beings. One of the very things that our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines are not only fighting to protect, but dieing believing that this is the way it should be. But here at home, things are very different.

    There is celibration of the fact that we fell short of our goal of Constitutional Carry. There are tons of comments about how excited people are to get their permits, and how much they can't wait till theirs show up in the mail. Wisconsin Carry Inc has started offering courses and even started certifying instructors for their "Approved Free Course". What the He77 happend to fighting for our rights? What happened to guaranteed freedoms? What happened to instructors that wanted to help people save life instead of making money off people's fears and insecurities? What happened to being men and women of their words?

    I read the news reports, and I know all about the people that showed up in their WCI shirts like it was a badge of honor, when in fact it has become a symbol of not only the fact that there is a lot of fight left, but also a representation of people who immediately jumped on the band wagon and started creating courses to make as much money as possible before the details of what really happened came out. Isn't that right Auric, Hubert and Nik?

    For quite some time I have been telling people that this half assed training is going to get someone killed. There is nothing in this world that can teach you about self defense except actual experience. And VERY FEW instructors in this state have that experience. You can talk military, and LEO, and all that **** all you want, but the truth is that we sit in a totally different situation, even if we have that experience. The first time you have someone that defends themselves, it will cost us all. I really do hope that when that day comes, it does not cost innocent lives.

    Do I still train people? You bet your ass I do! But I am not teaching DOJ courses, or hunters safety, I am teaching people how to survive, and make sure they don't kill innocent people in the process. I still do it for free, and I will NEVER charge for what I do. I will not pat someone on the back for swooping in after the fact to try and get some popularity out of it. This has become a series of "Good Enough" statements in the firearms community. Good enough won't save your life, or the lives of your loved ones. It wont spare innocent people, or stop the lawsuits. It will get us all rite back where we started. There will never be groups again, because asking people to take care of their own costs is obviously too much to ask of people.

    There is no need to ask me if I am still training, or if I am still here. I am walking away from this community and I will continue this fight on my own if I have to. I don't need the backing of an organization, or a bunch of people that are willing to settle for good enough. I have taken the time and seen the truest of colors in this situation.

    And just so we are clear, if someone who thinks their training is good enough fires a weapon and a stray bullet comes in my direction, or that of my family, I will defend myself and my family!!!!!! Have a nice life all!!!

    C.J. I believe I understand what you are thinking and I tend to agree with you on some of it. However, we (me, myself and I) are still fighting for our rights. We cannot win this war all at once, we have to win it one battle at a time. I DO agree with you about those that seemingly have "swooped down" for the now required training and are out to make money from it. Myself, I have offered to become a concealed carry instructor for Wisconsin Carry and NOT charge anyone anytime anywhere. I do NOT have your life and death experience in small arms, explosives or whatever other items of destruction you are familiar with but I do have the ability to train others in what concealed carry is all about in Wisconsin I.A.W. the D.O.J. training requirements.

    I do not understand your comment about Hubert, Auric and Nik making money??? Wisconsin Carry doesn't make money, it's a non profit organization.

    As for all those posting about their licenses to conceal carry why does that bother you so much? We won a huge fight in Wisconsin going from banned concealed carry to shall issue concealed carry which also strengthened our right to open carry in many more places. I DO agree we should not have to pay for a right but we couldn't make the leap from an outright ban of many of our rights to Constitutional Carry in such a short time span. Many of us have opted to get the license so we can go through life with our firearm with us within the constraints of ACT 35. We shouldn't HAVE to but for now that is what it is. We will continue to fight this battle until we do have Constitutional Carry. Yes, we are paying for it and yes we are celebrating getting our "Rights" license but this is not the end of this war on restoring our rights.

    As for your comments about the "training" people will receive being inferior to yours you are probably correct! You obviously train on how to use your firearm in self defense to a much higher degree than what is required by law. For that I commend you!
    For you to state that anyone who gets training from an instructor that has no real life experience in self defense is not going to be "good enough" is a bit short sighted. Many of us who carry here in the real world are out of shape, have decaying eyesight, old, crippled to some extent or just plain disabled and will NEVER be able to perform the training agenda of the military in combat or SWAT or anything more strenuous than getting out of a wheel chair. Should we strip them of their right to protect themselves? How can anyone learn anything about self defense if they have not yet experienced it (according to your own statement)?? We have to start somewhere and those that carry as I do will seek out more training and stick to a gun they know well. Some will get the training and realize that they do not want the responsibility of carrying a firearm due to the liability issues. Others will continue on and train, train, train.

    Your "stray bullet" comment is out of line. I cannot imagine anyone sending a stray bullet toward you or your family or anyone else intentionally because they don't have the training and ability you do. Your comment leads me to believe that if a self defense situation occurs in your immediate vicinity and the person(s) defending themselves "sends a stray bullet" your way you are going to shoot them?!?

    I do hope you reconsider and not leave the "community" on OCDO or Wisconsin Carry. Most if not all of us still open carry and still educate the general population on their right to keep and bear arms in the state of Wisconsin.
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

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    I'd prefer to have my $50 back,my stamp money back,and my envelope back but when you get right down to it I won't miss the money or the time it took to fill out the app a month from now. Unlicensed carry would be nice but in reality what we have now does the same thing with a small amount of time and money invested. If you drew a scale from bad to good for concealed carried laws in this nation I think we'd be far closer to good than bad.

    So you want people to be able to carry at a whim but also to be trained by guys who have been there and done that.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Vandil's Avatar
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    Auf Wiedersehen

  10. #10
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    No matter how much we dislike ANY law, it is still the law. Financially, I for one cannot afford to fight the good fight by exercising my right to go against the law and carry without the permit, or drive through a school zone with a loaded firearm in my vehicle, or for that matter shoot someone without having the knowledge obtained in the NRA classes I have taken (not tactical swat team type classes) that at least give me some idea when a shoot would be considered justifiable.

    So although I do agree with your basic premise that why celebrate not getting what we wanted as in Constitutional Carry, I do feel that a battle won in a long term war is in fact is worth celebrating.

    On Point… CalicoJack, since day 1 of my involvement here I have considered you a excellent source of knowledge, information, and at times even inspiration.

    Just to let you know sir, none of that has changed.

    Good Luck in whatever quest you choose to engage.

    Outdsoorsman1
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

    George Cecil (1891–1970) American advertising copywriter

    Outdoorsman1
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    Member: Silver Lake Sportsmans Club
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  11. #11
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    You are right

    You are right on the money. The war has many battle fronts and we have a foot hold in Anzio or Normandy. It takes blood and guts to reclaim our founders vision. That is why I advocate Original Intent, not case based law that has taken us away from our '10 commandments.' I am from India and had to pass my constitutional test to get my citizenship. The average joe blow in the street doesn't even know our real history which was being revised even before the last ont breathed his last. Our schools and Marxists profs ( not all of them) don't even teach real American history nor real civics. I agree, we are in a mess, but a lone ranger will loose eventually. Those Rambo movies are only real on a piece of film. Yes we don't need to pay for our rights but you got to admit, progressive WI has come a long way. Maybe you can teach me. I still don't have a gun nor money for a liscence yet but I'll take a course from you.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Step away from the tin foil.

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  13. #13
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    I read the news reports, and I know all about the people that showed up in their WCI shirts like it was a badge of honor, when in fact it has become a symbol of not only the fact that there is a lot of fight left, but also a representation of people who immediately jumped on the band wagon and started creating courses to make as much money as possible before the details of what really happened came out. Isn't that right Auric, Hubert and Nik?
    Are you out of your ******* mind? How does giving free classes allow WCI to make money?

    No **** the war ain't over! Obviously you haven't actually been reading what has been posted. Am I happy that we can car carry and conceal carry? Yes! Am I happy I had to pay $50 and get a license? No!

    You can bet you ASS I am going to continue pushing for Constitutional Carry. My Senator and Representative know EXACTLY where I stand. I have attended County Board meetings as well as city council meetings and made them aware that the silent majority will not be silent any more.

    Try to be a little less condescending since we obviously are paper patriots (tm)* compared to you.

    * springfield1911 I owe you a nickel.

  14. #14
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    ummm,,,

    I wonder if callicojack10 has received/will apply for or doesnt want a Wisconsin license?

    I wonder if he has any out of states licenses?
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  15. #15
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    We have won several victories lately under the Walker Adminstration. Several legislators fought against the DOJ's emergency rules because the see them as obstacles to getting Consititutional Carry later. I have spoken to legislators that say the Constitutional Carry and Stand Your Ground are on thier agenda for later sessions. The last JCRAR Executive Session is evidence of that.


    Beyond that, Calikojack, you sound like one of those elitist that believe only a few can be trusted to carry handguns. And the you believe that WCI Certified Handgun Safety Instructors are going to make the public less safe, I would say how I feel about your sentiment, but I would get banned.

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    Article I section 25:

    The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose.

    Anything else need to be said?

  17. #17
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    No matter how much we dislike ANY law, it is still the law. Financially, I for one cannot afford to fight the good fight by exercising my right to go against the law and carry without the permit, or drive through a school zone with a loaded firearm in my vehicle, or for that matter shoot someone without having the knowledge obtained in the NRA classes I have taken (not tactical swat team type classes) that at least give me some idea when a shoot would be considered justifiable.

    So although I do agree with your basic premise that why celebrate not getting what we wanted as in Constitutional Carry, I do feel that a battle won in a long term war is in fact is worth celebrating.

    On Point… CalicoJack, since day 1 of my involvement here I have considered you a excellent source of knowledge, information, and at times even inspiration.

    Just to let you know sir, none of that has changed.

    Good Luck in whatever quest you choose to engage.

    Outdsoorsman1
    Ok... My on point statement above holds true as to time frame stated "since day 1"... I stand by it

    But...

    After doing my homework and reading some of Calico's past posts to refresh my memory, I have to say this about my "None of that has changed" statement... well as Gilda Radner would say....

    "Nevermind"....

    On point... Hey Calico....

    C-ya....

    Outdoorsman1
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 11-09-2011 at 05:52 PM.
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

    George Cecil (1891–1970) American advertising copywriter

    Outdoorsman1
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Are you out of your ******* mind? How does giving free classes allow WCI to make money?

    No **** the war ain't over! Obviously you haven't actually been reading what has been posted. Am I happy that we can car carry and conceal carry? Yes! Am I happy I had to pay $50 and get a license? No!

    You can bet you ASS I am going to continue pushing for Constitutional Carry. My Senator and Representative know EXACTLY where I stand. I have attended County Board meetings as well as city council meetings and made them aware that the silent majority will not be silent any more.

    Try to be a little less condescending since we obviously are paper patriots (tm)* compared to you.

    * springfield1911 I owe you a nickel.
    Paul,

    Please allow me to offer you some assistance in your rebuttal...

    NOT Are you out of your ******* mind?
    but rather:
    I view with trepidation, your tenuous grasp on sanity.

    ----
    NOT No **** the war ain't over!
    consider a response of:
    We are in the preliminary stage of a prolonged period of effort towards the final goal.

    I have confidence in the ultimate triumph of your 4 digit IQ. (120.5 is 4 digit, right?)
    Last edited by E6chevron; 11-09-2011 at 05:53 PM.
    Wis. CCL #5x Springfield XDM 3.8 Compact .40 S&W, Utah CFP

  19. #19
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    Article I section 25:

    The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose.

    Anything else need to be said?
    Gee, how original! I'm glad only you and CJ know this.

    Obviously we need to keep fighting! No one said we are settling. This is a brief rest stop on the road to Constitutional Carry. It may be a rest stop with a broken vending machine and the toilets don't flush, but at least we can take a breath before pushing on to the final goal

  20. #20
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    Article I section 25:

    The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose.
    Anything else need to be said?
    Plenty...
    We now have an alternative to concealed carry in a vehicle. You may Openly "Carry" a loaded handgun with no license with the only restriction being GFSZ. That is a Federal Code.

    The concealed weapons statute is a restriction on the manner in which firearms are
    possessed and used. It is constitutional under Art. I, s. 25. Only if the public benefit
    in the exercise of the police power is substantially outweighed by an individual’s need
    to conceal a weapon in the exercise of the right to bear arms will an otherwise valid
    restriction on that right be unconstitutional, as applied. ....
    First, under the circumstances, did the defendant’s interest
    in concealing the weapon to facilitate exercise of his or her
    right to keep and bear arms substantially outweigh the
    State’s interest in enforcing the concealed weapons statute?
    Second, did the defendant conceal his or her weapon . . .
    because concealment was the only reasonable means under
    the circumstances to exercise his or her right to bear arms?
    Put differently, did the defendant lack a reasonable
    alternative to concealment, under the circumstances, to
    exercise his or her constitutional right to bear arms?
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 11-09-2011 at 06:29 PM.

  21. #21
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    Happy

    I am happy I received a license... I am happy for castle domain... I am happy about a lot of things. Does this mean I will be complacent and stop the fight? No way! The RIGHTS of all Americans are and will continue to be under attack. I write my legislators not only about 2A rights but about anything that irks me.

    Please join in if you live in Dane County and tell the officials that are proposing a "WHEEL TAX" that we are tired of excessive taxation without representation. < That is just an example.

    I am semi-retired so I am not able to afford the luxury of continuing education but I can assure you I can defend myself.. Albeit ... maybe not to your level of expectations.

    But I do know one thing.... I will remain steadfast in my quest and thirst for knowledge. No one can predict how a scenario will turn out. In combat there are too many variables you can throw in the mix.
    Most people can think for themselves.

    So I have enjoyed your postings and the somewhat devil’s advocate stimulation as that does indeed open one’s eyes. It is just too bad that you cannot take but only seem to give criticism. Look in the mirror. What do you see? I personally would like for you to stay here but then again that is your choice not mine.
    May I see your First, Fourth And Thirteenth Amendment Permits, please?

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    think killing makes you a killer. You can kill
    someone with a baseball bat or a car, but no one is
    trying to ban you from driving to the ball game. (Andy Rooney RIP)

  22. #22
    Regular Member msteinhilber's Avatar
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    I don't follow this forum as often as most here, but I was never under any bit of an impression that WCI or anybody else here had given up fighting for constitutional carry. In fact, I can recall e-mails stating this was all but a stepping stone towards constitutional carry.

    Somebody needs to get their panties untangled.

  23. #23
    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msteinhilber View Post
    I don't follow this forum as often as most here, but I was never under any bit of an impression that WCI or anybody else here had given up fighting for constitutional carry. In fact, I can recall e-mails stating this was all but a stepping stone towards constitutional carry.

    Somebody needs to get their panties untangled.
    Sounds to me like you read the forum just fine. I agree with you 100%.

    I am still basking in my $50 of freedom. I will bask for a little, as I feel we worked hard to see it happen. I would love to see what we all spent on gas alone just to see this permit system happen.

    Without question, all I have at this time is $50 of freedom, and yes I want more.

    When I get over my happy feeling, I will start up once again. I am not done just yet.

    WCI is still very young, and still very needed. I can't wait for my next membership sticker from them, as I put them on my front door, and my truck.

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    Paul:

    I sincerely hope you are correct.

  25. #25
    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    wisconsin
    Posts
    445

    I truly know where...

    ...your coming from Jack. As you've watched the fire in the eyes of the once vibrant Constitutional warrior fade, I to have seen it transform into the dim glow that illuminates the coveted plastic card. Knowing the momentum that it took to achieve what has been done will be slow; if not impossible to regain, it troubles me. I've tried to fan the embers of the once powerful flame that roared with energy. Though some of the embers glow, many of the gathers of wood that supplied the fuel for the force now sit idle. A storm approaches in the form of AB 237 but very few show it the deserved attention. Like you sir, I will grow tired of being a force for many with the will of one. I'll not stop fighting, not as long as I draw a breath, for I will not stand an injustice, not as long as I shall live. boar out.

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