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Thread: do you know?

  1. #1
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    do you know?

    So a few days ago me and a couple of my friends were talking about guns and reasons to use one than one of my friends said if your getting attacked in anyway and you dont have your gun cocked back and ready to go when you pull it you could be going to jail.he said something along the lines of you had time to think to pull the trigger.

    is this true?
    do you have to have a round in the chamber to use your weapon?

    thank you all for your help on this and my other posts haven't had to much time to right back on them.
    i would ask the cop that goes to my school and lives down the street from me but he doesnt even know the laws about them.

  2. #2
    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    I'm not altogether sure as to what you are asking; but I will say that if you are going to carry a handgun it needs to be loaded, and if it is a semiautomatic pistol it needs to have a round in the chamber.

    If the pistol is not loaded with a round in the chamber, you could wind up in the morgue if you are ever attacked and need the weapon to defend yourself with.
    Proud Veteran ~ U.S. Army / Army Reserve

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  3. #3
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    repharse

    what im asking is my friend told me
    if im getting attacked and have to draw my weapon and if it is not cocked back ( not saying there isnt rounds in the mag) i have to pull my gun out cock it than fire that i could be the one going to jail b/c id have time to think about what to do.
    sounded kinda like bs to me but i want to double check.
    so too make things clear.
    if im being attacked in anyway, if my gun is not cocked back with a round already in the chamber. and i pull it out cock it than fie could i be the one who get sent to jail?

  4. #4
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by righttobarearms View Post
    what im asking is my friend told me
    if im getting attacked and have to draw my weapon and if it is not cocked back ( not saying there isnt rounds in the mag) i have to pull my gun out cock it than fire that i could be the one going to jail b/c id have time to think about what to do.
    sounded kinda like bs to me but i want to double check.
    so too make things clear.
    if im being attacked in anyway, if my gun is not cocked back with a round already in the chamber. and i pull it out cock it than fie could i be the one who get sent to jail?
    You have every right to rack the slide to chamber a round, flip the safety off, take your time in aiming, run you gun empty, reload and do it all over again if it is all needed to STOP the threat, as long as you are threatened the whole time.

    BUT, will you have time for all this before the threat puts you in a body bag?

    Notice though, most single action only automatics are designed to be carried COCKED AND LOCKED with a round in the chamber, the hammer cocked, and the safety on. And I figure if you are taking time to use single action then you are using a single action only, if not don't worry about pulling the hammer back, it'll go back fast enough with that trigger squeeze.

    Edit: Just because you have time to think about the situation and what to do next don't mean you have time to escape or defuse the situation.
    Last edited by 09jisaac; 11-10-2011 at 01:06 AM.

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    I should hope that one thinks before they shoot. I would argue the opposite, if you don't think before you shoot, then you risk going to jail. That being said, there are many tactical advantages by carrying "cocked and locked".

    EDIT: In addition: Where did your friend hear this? This is why we cannot accept what we hear second nature as good sound legal advice. Look at the law, look at judicial precedent, ask a lawyer. Obtaining legal advice from friends and cops cannot end well.
    Last edited by langzaiguy; 11-10-2011 at 03:53 PM.

  6. #6
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by langzaiguy View Post
    I should hope that one thinks before they shoot. I would argue the opposite, if you don't think before you shoot, then you risk going to jail. That being said, there are many tactical advantages by carrying "cocked and locked".

    EDIT: In addition: Where did your friend hear this? This is why we cannot accept what we hear second nature as good sound legal advice. Look at the law, look at judicial precedent, ask a lawyer. Obtaining legal advice from friends and cops cannot end well.
    By this, I assume, Langzaiguy means "Ask a lawyer knowledgeable in cases and laws dealing with firearms", lawyers talk about things they don't know too.

    And yea, cocked and locked for a gun designed to be carried that way is perfectly safe to be carried that way. But I prefer DA/SA, that way I have a long, heavy trigger pull for my safety.

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    If you're carrying a modern firearm for self defense, you had better have one in the chamber waiting, otherwise you're just carrying a chunk of steel to throw at someone.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    You'd be surprised that amazing crap you hear from people. I was at a shooting range and a guy told me if I use silhouette shooting targets then shoot someone in SD you could be charged with premeditated murder. He said his friend who is a chief of police told him that. This guy was an idiot though. Told me to OC in Michigan I had to have a CPL and that there is no way to transport a handgun in Michigan without one. Ugh idiots!
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    I'm pretty certain your friend was speaking of a da/sa revolver, as in cocking the hammer and firing in single action rather than firing the gun double action. I believe massad ayoob recently done an article on this, basically if you cock the hammer, the prosecuting att. Can argue it was premeditated, or you are some vicious person bent on killing BC you made your weapon more dangerous by cocking hammer. There have actually been murder convictions on good people simply for this reason. This is why many police agencies went to DAO revolvers, then DAO pistols when departments started switching, that way some attorney couldn't argue they were malicious for cocking their firearm. This is why the "professionals" tend to say buy or make your revolver DAO, and to not fire a DA/SA pistol in SA mode for your first shot. In the majority of Ky you don't even have to worry about this, only in the bigger cities could I see you firing SA actually being a problem.
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 11-10-2011 at 10:38 PM.

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    There have actually been murder convictions on good people simply for this reason.
    sauce?
    Last edited by Schlitz; 11-10-2011 at 10:45 PM.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post

    If you are involved in a shooting:
    (1)Who is going to know if you cocked the weapon before you pulled the trigger, unless it is SAO in which case it can't be fired unless cocked?
    THIS IS A GOOD POINTTTTTTTT
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    It doesn't matter if you rack the slide, cock the hammer or dance a jig before the shoot.

    If deadly force is justified by the law, it wouldn't matter if you stabbed the perp to death with a spork from KFC or blew him up with a legally registered grenade.

    Deadly force is deadly force.

    Some fella at work said I could only carry in my car if the gun was "3 movements away" and that in Kentucky, it's legal to shoot your wife and her boyfriend if you catch them in the act because "It's a crime of passion".

    The law is the law. It's in writing and easily accessible online.

  13. #13
    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flb_78 View Post
    If deadly force is justified by the law, it wouldn't matter if you stabbed the perp to death with a spork from KFC or blew him up with a legally registered grenade.
    This made me laugh, because it reminded me of a comic I used to read called Johnny the Homicidal Maniac.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
    Why open carrying is a good idea: http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...encounter.html

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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    I'm not trying to insult you, but your grammar and spelling is lacking, and I think that is why people misunderstood your question. I didn't really understand it myself.

    Also, unless you're making a statement about showing off your weapon(s), you misspelled your username. Bare = to show off. Bear = to hold onto/to carry.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

    "Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!" - Malcolm Reynolds

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    @Sovereign: Who are you to oppress the short-sleeved? Are you implying that someone does not have the right to bare their own arms? I'll wear a freak'n tank top if I want to....

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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by langzaiguy View Post
    @Sovereign: Who are you to oppress the short-sleeved? Are you implying that someone does not have the right to bare their own arms? I'll wear a freak'n tank top if I want to....
    lol hey, bare all you want. I just want to make sure this guy is sending the message that he wants to send.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

    "Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!" - Malcolm Reynolds

    EDC = Walther PPQ 9mm

  17. #17
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flb_78 View Post
    It doesn't matter if you rack the slide, cock the hammer or dance a jig before the shoot.

    If deadly force is justified by the law, it wouldn't matter if you stabbed the perp to death with a spork from KFC or blew him up with a legally registered grenade.

    Deadly force is deadly force.

    Some fella at work said I could only carry in my car if the gun was "3 movements away" and that in Kentucky, it's legal to shoot your wife and her boyfriend if you catch them in the act because "It's a crime of passion".

    The law is the law. It's in writing and easily accessible online.
    Does anyone know where that "3 movements away" came from??? My brother-in-law told me the same thing.

  18. #18
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post

    Yes, it comes from ignorance of the law, arrogance to think that you know details of a subject that you know nothing about, laziness that prevents you from looking up the real information, timidity that tells you it is too much trouble to ask where a person got his asinine information, computers that allow people to rely on others on the internet for their education, and general stupidity that lets people believe anything some half wit tells them without asking for proof and then spreading it to others as fact. It can also come from getting legal advice from a brother-in-law. My brother-in-law is full of useless misinformation. The difference is I ignore him.

    Difference?

    I asked where it came from, thinking so many people couldn't have come up with this myth by themselves, so it MUST have a single source. I never once said I believed it, I knew the laws before he was ever my brother-in-law. Timidity? I asked for a source, all he could say was it was "law". And I never once told ANYONE that it was fact.

    Everything comes from somewhere, even lies with no base in truth.

    Gutshot, You are full of knowledge. We all can tell this. So when we ask a question we can take your answers as fact or fallow your sources to formulate our own opinion of the laws. But just because we ask for the origin, don't mean that we believe where it came to us at.

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    Regular Member Johnburns15's Avatar
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    A
    Last edited by Johnburns15; 11-13-2011 at 08:12 PM.

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by langzaiguy View Post
    @sovereign: Who are you to oppress the short-sleeved? Are you implying that someone does not have the right to bare their own arms? I'll wear a freak'n tank top if i want to....
    rotflmbo
    Got SIG? MOLON LABE

  21. #21
    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Mas Ayoob has one objective in everything he writes and says. That objective is to sell his books and articles and to sell his services as a trainer and expert witness. If he can invent a controversy he may get hired to settle it. I enjoy his writing and appreciate his point of view, but try to keep in mind the audience he writes for.

    If you are involved in a shooting:
    (6)The best defense is and always has been "the man attacked me and I feared for my life". That is all that the law requires and anything more than that just clouds the issue. Just repeat it over and over.
    Once again, a very insightful posting Gutshot. I once sat in one of Mas' classes when I worked in Florida, he was there for a training class with us and the man is pretty dead-on about most of his information and insight, not to say that you're wrong because I know as well as the next guy, money talks. *LOL*

    The way I view all of Mas' information and insight is that his analysis is from a post-incident, law enforcement POV, this is based upon the fact that he has law enforcement background and works with the courts for LE and civilain sides as per the cases. I have a great respect doe what hee's written even though there have been times that I begged to differ on some of his points but the man is old than me and has seen more action than I have.

    Granted, Mas' is more CC oriented than OC but he has mentioned in some of his writing's, the advantage of OC.

    As for this topic; I carry a SIG, there's NO SAFETY per se and I do carry with the round in the chamber, JIC. I totally & whole-heartedly agree with you on Point #6!
    Got SIG? MOLON LABE

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    This thread is cracking me up.

    Sound advice as always gutshot.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharleyCherokee View Post
    This made me laugh, because it reminded me of a comic I used to read called Johnny the Homicidal Maniac.
    I prefer Invader Zim myself

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    On topic:

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  24. #24
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    Prosecuting attorneys could know someone cocked their hammer frOm a police report maybe? When you've just shot someone and the law arrives wantIng to know everything you've done, most people would tell them, being as they are jacked up On adrenaline, and probably terrified. Once that is written down as you know, it goes into the report. And I'm sure as you know attorneys will do and say anything for a conviction. As far as mas, I believe the majority of what he says/writes because he has about as much experience in the field as anyone could, being as he has been an expert witness in such trials for years, and worked as a police prosecutor in new Hampshire. The article I read mentiOned nothing of his books, just provided case law of past prosecutions, and information so we wouldn't be in the same positiOn. I'm fairly certain this was in American handgunner, several months back, and the article is always very informative in every issue, and as for his books, I've read them all, and thoroughly enjoyed them.

  25. #25
    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnburns15 View Post
    The "3 step firing" comes from being in possession of enough of a controlled substance to traffic.
    If your firearm is in your reach and takes less then 3 steps to fire (1.load mag, 2. Cock gun, 3. Safety, 4. Fire) then it is considered a felony firearm possession. And I have talked to a lawyer about this, and when possible I will get the source of his information.

    But this ONLY applies if you have an amount of a controlled substance (i.e marijuana, cocaine, illegal prescription pills) to traffic.
    Don't waste your time looking for a citation, it doesn't exist. If you are in possession of a controlled substance, the violation would be under 18USC922(g).
    Speed is fine
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