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Thread: open carry vs concealed carry? what defines concealed?

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    open carry vs concealed carry? what defines concealed?

    Wisconsin now has open carry as it always has and now concealed carry,if you have the permit.
    So ,must the weapon be totally out of sight to be considered concealed carry and if any part of it is visible ,is it then that you are open carrying which has totally different regulations on where you can legally carry?
    Or ,if I have a concealed carry permit,does it mean I then can carry it hidden,or in view on a side holster,or however I choose to, and it falls within the concealed carry rules?
    Why this makes a difference is ,for example,With concealed carry it states you cannot go on school grounds.With open carry it states you actually have to stay within 1000 feet of the school property line.So if I am carrying concealed I can walk past a school on a sidewalk.If I am open carrying I cannot get within 1000feet of the school property line.
    So if I have a concealed carry permit and the gun is in a side holster,am I then subject to follow open carry rules and stay within 1000 feet of the school or will it then fall into concealed carry guidelines ?


    Or have the open carry rules changed recently perhaps since I was here last?
    Last edited by revolverrandy; 11-10-2011 at 01:24 AM.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Have you read the DOJ-FAQ? If not, I would start there.

    http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/...q-20111020.pdf

    You can Open Carry anywhere you can Conceal Carry.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 11-10-2011 at 01:57 AM.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    In other words, your license does not require you to carry concealed but allows you to carry concealed if you wish. So long as you are a licensee, you may carry openly within a GFSZ just not on school grounds

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    We carry firearms or pistols or sidearms and CC licenses.


    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by revolverrandy View Post
    Wisconsin now has open carry as it always has and now concealed carry,if you have the permit.
    So ,must the weapon be totally out of sight to be considered concealed carry and if any part of it is visible ,is it then that you are open carrying which has totally different regulations on where you can legally carry?
    Or ,if I have a concealed carry permit,does it mean I then can carry it hidden,or in view on a side holster,or however I choose to, and it falls within the concealed carry rules?
    Why this makes a difference is ,for example,With concealed carry it states you cannot go on school grounds.With open carry it states you actually have to stay within 1000 feet of the school property line.So if I am carrying concealed I can walk past a school on a sidewalk.If I am open carrying I cannot get within 1000feet of the school property line.
    So if I have a concealed carry permit and the gun is in a side holster,am I then subject to follow open carry rules and stay within 1000 feet of the school or will it then fall into concealed carry guidelines ?


    Or have the open carry rules changed recently perhaps since I was here last?
    The concealed carry license allows you to:

    1. Conceal.
    2. Carry (open or concealed) in non-posted government (certain exceptions) buildings.
    3. Carry (open or concealed) in bars without specific permission (assuming no posting).
    4. Carry (open or concealed) in the 1000' school zone. Touching school property is a Class I felony with or without a license
    5. Carry (open or concealed) in a state park, hatchery.
    6. Conceal in a car

    So... it is mislabeled. While it does allow concealed carry, it expands the places where on can open carry.

    The law is rather specific that it does not restrict open carry in any way more than conceal carry.

    I practice 'casual carry'. In other words, I have an OC holster and if my shirt/jacket happens to cover all or some of the firearm, so be it.

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    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I practice 'casual carry'. In other words, I have an OC holster and if my shirt/jacket happens to cover all or some of the firearm, so be it.
    That's the ticket. I'll mostly be doing this as well unless I need deep concealment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post

    I practice 'casual carry'. In other words, I have an OC holster and if my shirt/jacket happens to cover all or some of the firearm, so be it.
    This is what I'm doing during winter. In summer I'll probably use my MTAC.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    The only problem I have with "casual carry" as I see Paul coined it; is that IMHO, it's more likely to result in a MWAG call if it's not done with a little care. What I mean is that I think it's better off either being completely open or completely concealed. I've been carrying everywhere I can since getting the CWL and lately it's been mostly with an OWB Serpa for comfort BUT I've got a jacket that completely covers the holster. So, when I'm wearing the jacket I'm CC and when I'm not, I'm OC.

    What I'm trying to say is that if someone sees it out in the open they know you aren't trying to hide it. If someone doesn't see it at all, they don't even think about it. If someone isn't quite sure but thinks they saw something they might believe you are trying to be sneaky about it.

    With winter hitting fast it'll be mostly CC for me but thanks to having to wear a heavy jacket I'll only need to wear my crossbreed CC holster when I go to places that don't really want OC. For example, relatives homes. When summer comes back I'll probably be mostly OC.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 11-10-2011 at 09:43 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    The only problem I have with "casual carry" as I see Paul coined it; is that IMHO, it's more likely to result in a MWAG call if it's not done with a little care. What I mean is that I think it's better off either being completely open or completely concealed. I've been carrying everywhere I can since getting the CWL and lately it's been mostly with an OWB Serpa for comfort BUT I've got a jacket that completely covers the holster. So, when I'm wearing the jacket I'm CC and when I'm not, I'm OC.

    What I'm trying to say is that if someone sees it out in the open they know you aren't trying to hide it. If someone doesn't see it at all, they don't even think about it. If someone isn't quite sure but thinks they saw something they might believe you are trying to be sneaky about it.

    With winter hitting fast it'll be mostly CC for me but thanks to having to wear a heavy jacket I'll only need to wear my crossbreed CC holster when I go to places that don't really want OC. For example, relatives homes. When summer comes back I'll probably be mostly OC.
    However. The person who would do a MWAG call seeing your "casual" carry, would also very likely MWAG call if you were fully open carry. I can't think of any person who would do a MWAG call that would call for one but not the other.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    The only problem I have with "casual carry" as I see Paul coined it; is that IMHO, it's more likely to result in a MWAG call if it's not done with a little care. What I mean is that I think it's better off either being completely open or completely concealed. I've been carrying everywhere I can since getting the CWL and lately it's been mostly with an OWB Serpa for comfort BUT I've got a jacket that completely covers the holster. So, when I'm wearing the jacket I'm CC and when I'm not, I'm OC.
    Are you sure Paul coined it? I have carried casually at different levels and I was trying to think of terms for each. Maybe Paul can help me. I have carried my XD-45 in a Seprpa at 3:00 where a little jacket of coat will coneal it. No jacket, then it is open. That is what I assume Paul is calling 'casual carry'. But I also carry my PT145 in a High Ride-OWB at 4:00 where a big enough shirt not tucked in will coneal it. If I take the shirt off, then I am open carrying, but with this mode of carry, it is alot easier to discretely conceal a little deeper than 'casual carry'. Is there a term for that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    What I'm trying to say is that if someone sees it out in the open they know you aren't trying to hide it. If someone doesn't see it at all, they don't even think about it. If someone isn't quite sure but thinks they saw something they might believe you are trying to be sneaky about it.
    I think you worry too much, unless you happen to be in a Costco.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Are you sure Paul coined it?
    I stole it from someone in Madison on 11/1, was it you?

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    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    But I also carry my PT145...
    OT, but I have no shame...

    How do you like this pistol? I have a PT111 and love it. But I'm currently considering a G36 as it's known to be a slim concealer. The G36 and PT145 are close in size I believe, and the PT145 appeals to me more due to the 10+1 versus 6+1 of the G36.

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Thumbs up With The License I Will Just "Carry"....And...Question About The PT 145?!

    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Are you sure Paul coined it? I have carried casually at different levels and I was trying to think of terms for each. Maybe Paul can help me. I have carried my XD-45 in a Seprpa at 3:00 where a little jacket of coat will coneal it. No jacket, then it is open. That is what I assume Paul is calling 'casual carry'. But I also carry my PT145 in a High Ride-OWB at 4:00 where a big enough shirt not tucked in will coneal it. If I take the shirt off, then I am open carrying, but with this mode of carry, it is alot easier to discretely conceal a little deeper than 'casual carry'. Is there a term for that?


    I think you worry too much, unless you happen to be in a Costco.
    I agree, don't worry much about it. Sooner or later some of us WILL have police interaction due to someone calling 911 "MWAG".... Around my home now I wear a light wind breaker which sometimes covers all but the lower portion of my Glock or doesn't cover any of it if the wind breaker happens to open fully. I'm not going to worry about it. The law does not state that we must conceal or openly carry in any situation (I'm assuming the person has a license to legally conceal or open carry where a license is required...I.E. GFSZ's). That is a good thing since some states DO specify complete covering of the firearm for concealed carry and some states have "no printing" as well. Be thankful that we don't have that to deal with.

    One thing for all of us to keep in mind: When any of us uses the Wisconsin license or any other concealed carry license in another state I hope all of us peruse the laws of that state about concealed and open carry. Handgunlaw.us is a great place to get the laws for the state you are traveling in. Keep in mind that some states even disallow concealed carry at rest stops. Be aware...don't commit a crime in another state because you didn't know the laws.


    Greg, question about the PT145: How do you like it!? I was looking at one and thought it sure is a good price for such a small .45ACP firearm. Your thoughts?
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trip20 View Post
    OT, but I have no shame...

    How do you like this pistol? I have a PT111 and love it. But I'm currently considering a G36 as it's known to be a slim concealer. The G36 and PT145 are close in size I believe, and the PT145 appeals to me more due to the 10+1 versus 6+1 of the G36.
    I love it. 10+1 in .45ACP is huge for a CC gun. It fits my hands comfortably and fires very well.

    The gun is not huge, the aspect of 10+1 .45ACP in a CC gun is.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 11-10-2011 at 10:50 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Trip20, I Carry A Glock 36 Daily....Love It!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trip20 View Post
    OT, but I have no shame...

    How do you like this pistol? I have a PT111 and love it. But I'm currently considering a G36 as it's known to be a slim concealer. The G36 and PT145 are close in size I believe, and the PT145 appeals to me more due to the 10+1 versus 6+1 of the G36.
    I carry my Glock 36 daily. I've added the Pierce grip extender to two of my magazines so I actually have 7+1 rounds of .45 ACP. I have looked (online) at the PT 145 and also wondered how it handles. I have a Taurus Pro/DS in .45 ACP (12+1) and carried it for about a week before deciding not to use it for my carry weapon. The Taurus I have is a great gun but after wearing it for hours on end it causes back pain. It's too heavy for me. So....I'm donating it to my son the next time I see him.

    I've carried my Glock 36 for 8 years now and it has always been a great carry gun. It's rather thin, lightweight and with 7 rounds of .45 ACP the confidence level is high. It rides close to my torso in a Bianchi Evader holster and with practice the draw times are minimal. One word of caution though about the Glock 36: It is the red headed step child of Glocks. Getting aftermarket items for it is difficult but can be done with a lot of Internet searching. I replaced the recoil rod assembly with a Wolff assembly and it was difficult to find. Getting a standard length replacement barrel for it (not Glock) is also all but impossible. A Glock 21 barrel will fit but it of course will protrude out the slide. Still, I like the G36 more than any other carry firearm I've ever worn.

    Another thought: You may want to look hard at the Glock 30. It's a nice looking gun and it has 10+1 rounds of .45 ACP. It doesn't seem to be much bigger than the G36 with four more rounds of .45 ACP.
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwguy11 View Post
    However. The person who would do a MWAG call seeing your "casual" carry, would also very likely MWAG call if you were fully open carry. I can't think of any person who would do a MWAG call that would call for one but not the other.
    Outside of our circle very few are aware of the laws. Some don't even know we have CC yet and I found one of those the other day! I understand your point but I'm just expressing a slight; albeit valid IMO, concern. How many times has someone asked "are you a cop" for instance? I think just about everyone here has gotten that gem before. That's why I think full open is better than badly concealed.

    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Are you sure Paul coined it? I have carried casually at different levels and I was trying to think of terms for each. Maybe Paul can help me. I have carried my XD-45 in a Seprpa at 3:00 where a little jacket of coat will coneal it. No jacket, then it is open. That is what I assume Paul is calling 'casual carry'. But I also carry my PT145 in a High Ride-OWB at 4:00 where a big enough shirt not tucked in will coneal it. If I take the shirt off, then I am open carrying, but with this mode of carry, it is alot easier to discretely conceal a little deeper than 'casual carry'. Is there a term for that?


    I think you worry too much, unless you happen to be in a Costco.
    I'm not really worrying, just giving my humble opinion but the Costco incident does give my concern greater weight. If his gun had been carried open they may have just thought he was a cop and if it was completely concealed they never would have known.

    I wear mine about 3:30 with a forward cant which works best for me both with my OC and CC rigs. I can conceal easily as it doesn't make me look fatter than I already am. I'm still working on car carry though as 3:30 doesn't work too well there. I'm thinking about a truck mount or a cross draw.

    P.S. Please don't take your shirt off!
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 11-10-2011 at 10:58 AM.
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    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    P.S. Please don't take your shirt off!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9QdrGZSmy0

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57 View Post
    I carry my Glock 36 daily. I've added the Pierce grip extender to two of my magazines so I actually have 7+1 rounds of .45 ACP. I have looked (online) at the PT 145 and also wondered how it handles. I have a Taurus Pro/DS in .45 ACP (12+1) and carried it for about a week before deciding not to use it for my carry weapon. The Taurus I have is a great gun but after wearing it for hours on end it causes back pain. It's too heavy for me. So....I'm donating it to my son the next time I see him.

    I've carried my Glock 36 for 8 years now and it has always been a great carry gun. It's rather thin, lightweight and with 7 rounds of .45 ACP the confidence level is high. It rides close to my torso in a Bianchi Evader holster and with practice the draw times are minimal. One word of caution though about the Glock 36: It is the red headed step child of Glocks. Getting aftermarket items for it is difficult but can be done with a lot of Internet searching. I replaced the recoil rod assembly with a Wolff assembly and it was difficult to find. Getting a standard length replacement barrel for it (not Glock) is also all but impossible. A Glock 21 barrel will fit but it of course will protrude out the slide. Still, I like the G36 more than any other carry firearm I've ever worn.

    Another thought: You may want to look hard at the Glock 30. It's a nice looking gun and it has 10+1 rounds of .45 ACP. It doesn't seem to be much bigger than the G36 with four more rounds of .45 ACP.
    I have too much invested in custom holsters for my PT145 to switch now. Besides, I love it. The only thing I don't like about it is that in the owner's manual it say to not use +P ammo.

    My next gun will something like a Taurus Slim 740 or a Ruger LC9 for deeper concealment.

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    confusing

    So if I get a concealed carry permit I can carry either open or concealed following concealed carry rules?


    If someone does not have a concealed carry permit are the rstrictions still same as they were for open carry or do they change withconcealed carry now?


    I still do not understand the school zone thing.With a concealed permit ,must I still stay at least 1000 feet away from school property line or just cannot be on school grounds?


    And,do I understand his correctly,if I have a concealed carry permit I can enter a tavern with a concealed weapon as long as I am not drinking but cannot open carry in a tavern?

    Right now,I still am more confused than ever before and I bet many are.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by revolverrandy View Post
    So if I get a concealed carry permit I can carry either open or concealed following concealed carry rules?


    If someone does not have a concealed carry permit are the rstrictions still same as they were for open carry or do they change withconcealed carry now?


    I still do not understand the school zone thing.With a concealed permit ,must I still stay at least 1000 feet away from school property line or just cannot be on school grounds?


    And,do I understand his correctly,if I have a concealed carry permit I can enter a tavern with a concealed weapon as long as I am not drinking but cannot open carry in a tavern?

    Right now,I still am more confused than ever before and I bet many are.
    Please read the DOJ FAQ and did you read my previous reply?

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    agreed. .. i too am confused more now .. but i know between here and reading we will all learn in time

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by revolverrandy View Post
    So if I get a concealed carry permit I can carry either open or concealed following concealed carry rules?


    If someone does not have a concealed carry permit are the rstrictions still same as they were for open carry or do they change withconcealed carry now?


    I still do not understand the school zone thing.With a concealed permit ,must I still stay at least 1000 feet away from school property line or just cannot be on school grounds?


    And,do I understand his correctly,if I have a concealed carry permit I can enter a tavern with a concealed weapon as long as I am not drinking but cannot open carry in a tavern?

    Right now,I still am more confused than ever before and I bet many are.
    A permit allows you to conceal.

    A permit allows you to CARRY, either open or concealed, it does not matter,
    - in school zones, but not school grounds,
    - in taverns, (unless posted) but you cannot consume,
    - in public buildings (unless posted) not expressly prohibited.

    Did you read the DOJ-FAQ?

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by revolverrandy View Post
    So if I get a concealed carry permit I can carry either open or concealed following concealed carry rules?
    Yes, basically see:
    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/201...ed/acts/35.pdf
    http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/...ealedCarry.asp


    Quote Originally Posted by revolverrandy View Post
    If someone does not have a concealed carry permit are the rstrictions still same as they were for open carry or do they change withconcealed carry now?
    The restrictions are the same except; arguably, for car carry. We still have the legal president from State v. Walls which you can read below the 941.23 statute:

    A handgun on the seat of a car that was indiscernible from ordinary observation
    by a person outside, and within the immediate vicinity, of the vehicle was hidden from
    view for purposes of determining whether the gun was a concealed weapon under this
    section. State v. Walls, 190 Wis. 2d 65, 526 N.W.2d 765 (Ct. App. 1994).

    Quote Originally Posted by revolverrandy View Post
    I still do not understand the school zone thing.With a concealed permit ,must I still stay at least 1000 feet away from school property line or just cannot be on school grounds?
    You can be within 1,000 with a permit. You can't be on school grounds unless the weapon is unloaded and encased or locked in a vehicle mounted rack. Read: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...atutes/948.pdf
    948.605 is what you are looking for.


    Quote Originally Posted by revolverrandy View Post
    And,do I understand his correctly,if I have a concealed carry permit I can enter a tavern with a concealed weapon as long as I am not drinking but cannot open carry in a tavern?
    With a CCL you can carry open or concealed in a tavern. Without a CCL you may only open carry with specific permission from the owner.

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...atutes/941.pdf
    Look for 941.237

    Quote Originally Posted by revolverrandy View Post
    Right now,I still am more confused than ever before and I bet many are.
    Read. A lot. Don't take anyone's word for it. We (most of us anyway) are not lawyers and what we tell you should not be taken as legal advice.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 11-10-2011 at 12:26 PM.
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    With a CCL you can carry open or concealed in a tavern. Without a CCL you may only open carry with specific permission from the owner.

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...atutes/941.pdf
    Look for 941.237



    Read. A lot. Don't take anyone's word for it. We (most of us anyway) are not lawyers and what we tell you should not be taken as legal advice.
    I have spoken at length with an attorney regarding "permission". The language of the Statute is "agent" Simply having a permission slip from the tavern owner may or may not be enough as "agent" is a legal term which normally infers more than a buddy with a permission slip. In other words, if you have an overly zealous LEO who responds and finds you armed in a tavern without a license, there is some amount of risk that you will be cited and have to defend the citation in court even if you possess a permission slip from the owner.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 11-10-2011 at 12:42 PM.

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    Lightbulb New Folks To Carry...Please Read & Understand All The Laws Before....

    you get in trouble. There are some nuances in the law(s) that some if not all of us "long time users" know. I can't complain about any of these posts pointing those new to carry in the right direction. There a few nuances I will point out that some of us have discussed and you can make your own personal choice in this matter:

    If you are open carrying and have permission of the bar owner/manager you may consume alcoholic beverages legally in said bar. There is no law against drinking while open carrying except for being in a class b business while doing so without permission. Of course it is illegal to become intoxicated while carrying a firearm, same as being in control of a vehicle while under the influence.

    My thoughts are if a person can consume a beer and drive home why can't that same person consume a beer while open carrying??

    Another point of interest is the D.O.J. F.A.Q.'s are not all legally correct. I learned recently that the F.A.Q.'s state it is illegal for a seller of electric weapons to sell to a Wisconsin resident who does NOT have a Wisconsin concealed carry license. That is incorrect. A seller of electric weapons CAN legally sell to a resident of Wisconsin who does NOT have a Wisconsin concealed carry license. So....read the laws and understand them and use the F.A.Q.s to point you in the right direction.

    ACT 35 Link: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/201...ed/acts/35.pdf

    Electric weapon portion is on page 16 in the pdf document. It is 941.295 (2) (d) 2 for selling to an unlicensed Wisconsin resident (it is legal).
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

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