touchdowntodd
Regular Member
agreed. .. i too am confused more now .. but i know between here and reading we will all learn in time
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open carry vs concealed carry? what defines concealed?
- Thread starter revolverrandy
- Start date
BROKENSPROKET
Regular Member
A permit allows you to conceal.
A permit allows you to CARRY, either open or concealed, it does not matter,
- in school zones, but not school grounds,
- in taverns, (unless posted) but you cannot consume,
- in public buildings (unless posted) not expressly prohibited.
Did you read the DOJ-FAQ?
Brass Magnet
Founder's Club Member
Yes, basically see:
https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/related/acts/35.pdf
http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/ConcealedCarry/ConcealedCarry.asp
The restrictions are the same except; arguably, for car carry. We still have the legal president from State v. Walls which you can read below the 941.23 statute:
You can be within 1,000 with a permit. You can't be on school grounds unless the weapon is unloaded and encased or locked in a vehicle mounted rack. Read: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/948.pdf
948.605 is what you are looking for.
With a CCL you can carry open or concealed in a tavern. Without a CCL you may only open carry with specific permission from the owner.
https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/941.pdf
Look for 941.237
Read. A lot. Don't take anyone's word for it. We (most of us anyway) are not lawyers and what we tell you should not be taken as legal advice.
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Interceptor_Knight
Regular Member
I have spoken at length with an attorney regarding "permission". The language of the Statute is "agent" Simply having a permission slip from the tavern owner may or may not be enough as "agent" is a legal term which normally infers more than a buddy with a permission slip. In other words, if you have an overly zealous LEO who responds and finds you armed in a tavern without a license, there is some amount of risk that you will be cited and have to defend the citation in court even if you possess a permission slip from the owner.
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rcawdor57
Campaign Veteran
New Folks To Carry...Please Read & Understand All The Laws Before....
you get in trouble. There are some nuances in the law(s) that some if not all of us "long time users" know. I can't complain about any of these posts pointing those new to carry in the right direction. There a few nuances I will point out that some of us have discussed and you can make your own personal choice in this matter:
If you are open carrying and have permission of the bar owner/manager you may consume alcoholic beverages legally in said bar. There is no law against drinking while open carrying except for being in a class b business while doing so without permission. Of course it is illegal to become intoxicated while carrying a firearm, same as being in control of a vehicle while under the influence.
My thoughts are if a person can consume a beer and drive home why can't that same person consume a beer while open carrying??
Another point of interest is the D.O.J. F.A.Q.'s are not all legally correct. I learned recently that the F.A.Q.'s state it is illegal for a seller of electric weapons to sell to a Wisconsin resident who does NOT have a Wisconsin concealed carry license. That is incorrect. A seller of electric weapons CAN legally sell to a resident of Wisconsin who does NOT have a Wisconsin concealed carry license. So....read the laws and understand them and use the F.A.Q.s to point you in the right direction.
ACT 35 Link: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/related/acts/35.pdf
Electric weapon portion is on page 16 in the pdf document. It is 941.295 (2) (d) 2 for selling to an unlicensed Wisconsin resident (it is legal).
you get in trouble. There are some nuances in the law(s) that some if not all of us "long time users" know. I can't complain about any of these posts pointing those new to carry in the right direction. There a few nuances I will point out that some of us have discussed and you can make your own personal choice in this matter:
If you are open carrying and have permission of the bar owner/manager you may consume alcoholic beverages legally in said bar. There is no law against drinking while open carrying except for being in a class b business while doing so without permission. Of course it is illegal to become intoxicated while carrying a firearm, same as being in control of a vehicle while under the influence.
My thoughts are if a person can consume a beer and drive home why can't that same person consume a beer while open carrying??
Another point of interest is the D.O.J. F.A.Q.'s are not all legally correct. I learned recently that the F.A.Q.'s state it is illegal for a seller of electric weapons to sell to a Wisconsin resident who does NOT have a Wisconsin concealed carry license. That is incorrect. A seller of electric weapons CAN legally sell to a resident of Wisconsin who does NOT have a Wisconsin concealed carry license. So....read the laws and understand them and use the F.A.Q.s to point you in the right direction.
ACT 35 Link: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/related/acts/35.pdf
Electric weapon portion is on page 16 in the pdf document. It is 941.295 (2) (d) 2 for selling to an unlicensed Wisconsin resident (it is legal).
Brass Magnet
Founder's Club Member
Just to add.......
Definitely don't take anyone's word for it if it isn't cited. We all get lazy from time to time but it's especially important with new members that we provide cites so that they can read them and make a more educated decision for themselves.
In fact, for the benefit of those who haven't yet read them, citing to authority is a rule here on OCDO: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
http://forum.opencarry.com/forums/showthread.php?96785-Rules-for-all-a-review
We've all been guilty of eschewing this in the past and when conversing amongst long time members but with the new comers in mind I would ask that we all try to follow it as much as possible.
Definitely don't take anyone's word for it if it isn't cited. We all get lazy from time to time but it's especially important with new members that we provide cites so that they can read them and make a more educated decision for themselves.
In fact, for the benefit of those who haven't yet read them, citing to authority is a rule here on OCDO: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
http://forum.opencarry.com/forums/showthread.php?96785-Rules-for-all-a-review
We've all been guilty of eschewing this in the past and when conversing amongst long time members but with the new comers in mind I would ask that we all try to follow it as much as possible.
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Yooper
Regular Member
WI law seem pretty straight forward. Seems to be that where ever you can OC (w/o permit), you can OC/CC with a permit, plus having the permit expands the areas where you can carry (cars, school zones, etc).
If you want to scratch your head, come to MI. Here we have places that are off limits to OC (without CPL), and off limits to CC (with CPL), but are ok to OC (and OC only) with a CPL. So I guess if anyone with a WI permit comes to MI and isn't sure if they can CC in a particular place, all you have to do is OC (with your permit of course), and you'll be fine.
If you want to scratch your head, come to MI. Here we have places that are off limits to OC (without CPL), and off limits to CC (with CPL), but are ok to OC (and OC only) with a CPL. So I guess if anyone with a WI permit comes to MI and isn't sure if they can CC in a particular place, all you have to do is OC (with your permit of course), and you'll be fine.
Outdoorsman1
Regular Member
+ 1000
There does seem to be a LOT of questions asked lately that could be answered easily by simpley reading either past posts, the DOJ FAQ , oe even the law itself... Both of which are linked to many times in other posts...
Please do not get me wrong, a "Newbie" asking any question is a good thing, but so is studying, searching, and reading for ones self to discover the answer. Then if they are still not sure, ask here. Some questions seem obvious that no attempt was made to find the answer othe than jsut asking the question....
Outdoormsn1
Interceptor_Knight
Regular Member
As I mentioned, be careful with using a simple permission slip to carry in a tavern. I can not express strong enough how unwise it is to consume alcohol in a tavern (or anywhere else in public) while carrying. The PR damage alone is reason enough.
Be very careful with electric weapons. If you do not have a license it must remain in its case except for in your "own dwelling or place of business or on land which you own, lease, or legally occupy".
HandyHamlet
Regular Member
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Interceptor_Knight
Regular Member
What is unsubstantiated and nothing more than hearsay is that a permission slip makes you an "agent".
If you look at the Statute you see that a written permission slip is only clearly good for a "specific event of limited duration" and not a blanket get out of jail free card.
Here is where "agent" is mentioned.
If you are not an employee, your status to be legally an "agent" may be more than just a simple permission slip to possess the handgun. Feel free to risk it yourself but with no proof to the effect it is irresponsible at most to recommend someone violate a Statute based only on internet rumor. Please provide a cite if you have any.
paul@paul-fisher.com
Regular Member
OK, I agree with this. I always carry in a bar with permission, not as an agent.
HandyHamlet
Regular Member
Nice try deflecting there Perry Mason.
Let's try it again.
The opinions of your crack team of imaginary sock puppet lawyers mean absolutely nothing. It amounts to nothing more than internet hearsay and rumors. "Because my imaginary discussion with my elite staff of lawyer dudes* says so" is not a cite.
*Elite Staff of Legal Dudes.
Let's try it again.
The opinions of your crack team of imaginary sock puppet lawyers mean absolutely nothing. It amounts to nothing more than internet hearsay and rumors. "Because my imaginary discussion with my elite staff of lawyer dudes* says so" is not a cite.
*Elite Staff of Legal Dudes.
rcawdor57
Campaign Veteran
If It's Legal, It's Legal...
I do carry openly in a tavern usually once a week and I do consume an alcoholic beverage while doing so. Usually I am sitting with the two owners of the establishment at their bar discussing life in general when doing so. I'll call them "agents" just to fit your legal description. I know the owners (agents) extremely well and I do have blanket permission to open carry in their establishment as do many others that frequent their business. No law(s) are being broken. It's simple, if a person can sit in a bar and consume alcohol until hitting the legal limit of 0.08 and then drive thousands of pounds of metal on public highways legally and supposedly in full control (legally) of their faculties then a person can legally drink a beer while open carrying.
PR damage? The only PR damage that ever occurs is when someone makes something that they don't agree with into something that we are supposed to be ashamed of and hide from others. How many gun owners are afraid to let their neighbors even know they own firearms? All because of "PR". I am not hiding in my home because I want a beer while open carrying.
As for electric weapons I have read the law through and through several times and yes, I know the law well. The issue is most retailers in Wisconsin are still not going to sell to the general public because the D.O.J. F.A.Q.'s are wrong.
I do carry openly in a tavern usually once a week and I do consume an alcoholic beverage while doing so. Usually I am sitting with the two owners of the establishment at their bar discussing life in general when doing so. I'll call them "agents" just to fit your legal description. I know the owners (agents) extremely well and I do have blanket permission to open carry in their establishment as do many others that frequent their business. No law(s) are being broken. It's simple, if a person can sit in a bar and consume alcohol until hitting the legal limit of 0.08 and then drive thousands of pounds of metal on public highways legally and supposedly in full control (legally) of their faculties then a person can legally drink a beer while open carrying.
PR damage? The only PR damage that ever occurs is when someone makes something that they don't agree with into something that we are supposed to be ashamed of and hide from others. How many gun owners are afraid to let their neighbors even know they own firearms? All because of "PR". I am not hiding in my home because I want a beer while open carrying.
As for electric weapons I have read the law through and through several times and yes, I know the law well. The issue is most retailers in Wisconsin are still not going to sell to the general public because the D.O.J. F.A.Q.'s are wrong.
oak1971
Regular Member
Nice try deflecting there Perry Mason.
Let's try it again.
The opinions of your crack team of imaginary sock puppet lawyers mean absolutely nothing. It amounts to nothing more than internet hearsay and rumors. "Because my imaginary discussion with my elite staff of lawyer dudes* says so" is not a cite.
*Elite Staff of Legal Dudes.
Probably the same "legal team" that I outed last time around. A kid a few years out of college working in Madistan at a job his daddy arranged.
HandyHamlet
Regular Member
The one who insisted we bow down to the superior intellect of all DOJ employees? For they were the ones who gifted us the permission to exercise our Constitutional Right? Even though they had nothing to do with it?
No, I don't remember....
No, I don't remember....
revolverrandy
Regular Member
i see lots of concerns
Even after reading the doj f.a.q.'s there is still is alot of things not clear in my opinion.I thought I could clear it up here but not so far.There are a number of things which are not clear and I don't feel comfortable assuming.I hope things are eventually written up so they take any assumptions out of the mix .I could see things getting messy and people having issues and run ins with the law as it currently is.Just look at how different the views and replies are in this thread.We are clearly not all on the same page.I mean no disrespect to anyone here and just want to carry within the law to avoid any trouble.In order to do so i will need to know without any doubt what is allowed and what is not.So far I am onloy finding more questions while trying to find answers.
Even after reading the doj f.a.q.'s there is still is alot of things not clear in my opinion.I thought I could clear it up here but not so far.There are a number of things which are not clear and I don't feel comfortable assuming.I hope things are eventually written up so they take any assumptions out of the mix .I could see things getting messy and people having issues and run ins with the law as it currently is.Just look at how different the views and replies are in this thread.We are clearly not all on the same page.I mean no disrespect to anyone here and just want to carry within the law to avoid any trouble.In order to do so i will need to know without any doubt what is allowed and what is not.So far I am onloy finding more questions while trying to find answers.
HandyHamlet
Regular Member
Ah, Grasshopper.
Soon you will able to snatch the stones from my palm.
You are not alone. As you see some parts of the law are clearly defined. While others are subject to interpretation of imaginary sock puppet lawyers and Judges.
Sometimes there are no right answers. We just have to wait and see. And act within the law as best we can.
paul@paul-fisher.com
Regular Member
I guess I am not following your questions.
Here are the Cliff's notes:
Anyone can open carry anywhere in the state except for:
1. Where it is posted
2. Inside of a government building
3. Within 1000' of the edge of school ground while not on private property
4. In a place that serves liquor by the drink without specific permission from the owner
5. In a state park.
With a permit, you can:
1. Conceal.
2. Carry (open or concealed) in non-posted government (certain exceptions) buildings.
3. Carry (open or concealed) in bars without specific permission (assuming no posting).
4. Carry (open or concealed) in the 1000' school zone. Touching school property is a Class I felony with or without a license
5. Carry (open or concealed) in a state park, hatchery.
6. Conceal in a car
Please read this a couple times and ask additional questions for clarification if needed.
Please note, I am not a lawyer so the advice I will give you is worth exactly the amount of money you paid for it.
Here are the Cliff's notes:
Anyone can open carry anywhere in the state except for:
1. Where it is posted
2. Inside of a government building
3. Within 1000' of the edge of school ground while not on private property
4. In a place that serves liquor by the drink without specific permission from the owner
5. In a state park.
With a permit, you can:
1. Conceal.
2. Carry (open or concealed) in non-posted government (certain exceptions) buildings.
3. Carry (open or concealed) in bars without specific permission (assuming no posting).
4. Carry (open or concealed) in the 1000' school zone. Touching school property is a Class I felony with or without a license
5. Carry (open or concealed) in a state park, hatchery.
6. Conceal in a car
Please read this a couple times and ask additional questions for clarification if needed.
Please note, I am not a lawyer so the advice I will give you is worth exactly the amount of money you paid for it.
revolverrandy
Regular Member
Thats the feeling I am getting.The scary thing with that is how will this make things between a citizen trying to understand and do whats right and a law enforcement officer trying to do his job.Could be some head butting occurring unintentionally just out of confusion.