open carry vs concealed carry? what defines concealed?

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

I guess I am not following your questions.

Here are the Cliff's notes:

Anyone can open carry anywhere in the state except for:

1. Where it is posted
2. Inside of a government building
3. Within 1000' of the edge of school ground while not on private property
4. In a place that serves liquor by the drink without specific permission from the owner
5. In a state park.

With a permit, you can:

1. Conceal.
2. Carry (open or concealed) in non-posted government (certain exceptions) buildings.
3. Carry (open or concealed) in bars without specific permission (assuming no posting).
4. Carry (open or concealed) in the 1000' school zone. Touching school property is a Class I felony with or without a license
5. Carry (open or concealed) in a state park, hatchery.
6. Conceal in a car

Please read this a couple times and ask additional questions for clarification if needed.

Please note, I am not a lawyer so the advice I will give you is worth exactly the amount of money you paid for it.

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Thanks . I'll continue to read and reread more and see if I am missing anything.

revolverrandy said:

.Could be some head butting occurring unintentionally just out of confusion.

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From my recent e-mail to a legislator:
"My concern is for his half-measures. How many applications have been
received and what is the average completion rate of an individual
staffer and of them collectively? The AG knows full well that he may
not comply with Act 35, but it is of no matter without an effective threat.

Thank you for making it personal, but I carry openly, recognizing the
only real benefit of a Wisconsin CWL is relief from the anxiety of
inadvertent concealment. Its significant downside is abridgement of my
Fourth and Fifth Amendment Rights, being required to produce my papers
on mere demand of an enforcer.

Act 35's real benefit will be as litigators' economic stimulus in years
to come."

revolverrandy said:

Even after reading the doj f.a.q.'s there is still is alot of things not clear in my opinion.I thought I could clear it up here but not so far.There are a number of things which are not clear and I don't feel comfortable assuming.I hope things are eventually written up so they take any assumptions out of the mix .I could see things getting messy and people having issues and run ins with the law as it currently is.Just look at how different the views and replies are in this thread.We are clearly not all on the same page.I mean no disrespect to anyone here and just want to carry within the law to avoid any trouble.In order to do so i will need to know without any doubt what is allowed and what is not.So far I am onloy finding more questions while trying to find answers.

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Just a note: FAQ's and "regulation pamphlets" are not the LAW. Most even come with disclaimers. The cites to the statutes and the case law surrounding them are what you should truly concern yourself with. The parts that are unclear and are argued over here have a simple fix: If your not sure, take the safe bet and don't do it.

The only things that are unclear so far in this thread are where IK just interjected his opinion about bars and car carry without a permit. Both easily fixable. If you are unsure, don't carry without a permit in an establishment with a class B liquor license and don't carry in your car without one. Cites are above; both in the same chapter, 941.237 and 941.23 respectively.

rcawdor57 said:

I do carry openly in a tavern usually once a week and I do consume an alcoholic beverage while doing so. Usually I am sitting with the two owners of the establishment at their bar discussing life in general when doing so. I'll call them "agents" just to fit your legal description. I know the owners (agents) extremely well and I do have blanket permission to open carry in their establishment as do many others that frequent their business.

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You misread the Statute and my post.
There are 2 exceptions which you may or may not qualify for. One is if you are authorized for a specific event of limited duration and the other is if YOU are an "agent" of the establishment.
There is a difference between what you may happen to get away with and what complies with the letter of the law. The letter of the law should be the advice we give someone who looks for it. There is alot of wishful thinking in this thread and a deliberate ignorance of the terms used here. Words mean something. An Agent of a business is normally someone who represents the business in a formal capacity and not simply a buddy who is just another customer.
The word agent was deliberately used which contrasts with someone who simply is authorized by the owner or manager, etc. If you read the whole Statute you see that you may only be authorized for a specific event of limited duration.

rcawdor57 said:

...It's simple, if a person can sit in a bar and consume alcohol until hitting the legal limit of 0.08 and then drive thousands of pounds of metal on public highways legally and supposedly in full control (legally) of their faculties then a person can legally drink a beer while open carrying....

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If you hit .08, you are already violating the law. There is no supposition of full control at .0799999. You may be convicted using only the evidence that your BAC is .08 or above and you may also be convicted if you demonstrate that you are under the influence with any detectable amount in your blood. For all other controlled substances you may be convicted with any detectable amount in your blood without having to demonstrate being under the influence.

Interceptor_Knight said:

You misread the Statute and my post.
There are 2 exceptions which you may or may not qualify for. One is if you are authorized for a specific event of limited duration and the other is if YOU are an "agent" of the establishment.
There is a difference between what you may happen to get away with and what complies with the letter of the law. The letter of the law should be the advice we give someone who looks for it. There is alot of wishful thinking in this thread and a deliberate ignorance of the terms used here. Words mean something. An Agent of a business is normally someone who represents the business in a formal capacity and not simply a buddy who is just another customer.
The word agent was deliberately used which contrasts with someone who simply is authorized by the owner or manager, etc. If you read the whole Statute you see that you may only be authorized for a specific event of limited duration.

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Please go back and look at the thread. You are the one who brought up the word agent.

Up to that point, all that was said is that you can oc in a bar with permission, which is true.

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

Please go back and look at the thread. You are the one who brought up the word agent.

Up to that point, all that was said is that you can oc in a bar with permission, which is true.

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Read my posts again.
Simple permission is only for a specific event which is a limited duration. The Statute states agent as one of the persons exempted along with the owner and manager.

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

Please go back and look at the thread. You are the one who brought up the word agent.

Up to that point, all that was said is that you can oc in a bar with permission, which is true.

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Exactly. IK, you only succeeded in needlessly interjecting confusion and opinion into the thread.

Interceptor_Knight said:

Read my posts again.
Simple permission is only for a specific event which is a limited duration. The Statute states agent as one of the persons exempted along with the owner and manager.

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I said "specific permission" and never used the word "agent"...huh, would you look at that, the statute that was cited with which to form one's own opinion, has another instance of permission. Geez man, start a new thread already. You are sooooooo stretching here. Damn.....Go try to confuse someone else.

Brass Magnet said:

Exactly. IK, you only succeeded in needlessly interjecting confusion and opinion into the thread.

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I succeeded in pointing out the actual language of the Statute. Please cite where the Statute allows you to carry with a blanket permission slip of unlimited duration and not for a specific "event"...

Interceptor_Knight said:

Read my posts again.
Simple permission is only for a specific event which is a limited duration. The Statute states agent as one of the persons exempted along with the owner and manager.

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I guess we are arguing just to argue? No kidding.

When I go to Lizzy's, I walk up to the door of the bar, wave at Lizzy and say "can I come in"? She says "Yes". It is a limited duration, until I leave. Next time I come in, I ask again. I never once implied the permission was permanent and irrevocable.

I do this when I go to any Class-B facility that I might have a drink at. Now with my license, if I'm trully there for just lunch, I don't bother asking because I am carrying on my permit.

Is that clearer now?

Interceptor_Knight said:

I succeeded in pointing out the actual language of the Statute. Please cite where the Statute allows you to carry with a blanket permission slip of unlimited duration and not for a specific "event"...

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Please cite where I said " blanket permission slip of unlimited duration"

Your constant contrariness is getting really old.

Once again, the king of strawmen; who even likes to redefine strawman if it can make him right, speaks.

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

I guess we are arguing just to argue? No kidding.

When I go to Lizzy's, I walk up to the door of the bar, wave at Lizzy and say "can I come in"? She says "Yes". It is a limited duration, until I leave. Next time I come in, I ask again. I never once implied the permission was permanent and irrevocable.

I do this when I go to any Class-B facility that I might have a drink at. Now with my license, if I'm trully there for just lunch, I don't bother asking because I am carrying on my permit.

Is that clearer now?

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It is clear that you are getting away with something which if cited for you may not be able to defend against in court. You are calling each of your visits to the establishment an "event" but it is obvious that they are not an official "event".

Brass Magnet said:

Please cite where I said " blanket permission slip of unlimited duration"

Your constant contrariness is getting really old.

Once again, the king of strawmen; who even likes to redefine strawman if it can make him right, speaks.

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If it is not of limited duration then it is of unlimited duration. Once again, please articulate what "event" of limited duration you are authorized to carry at. I suspect it is the same as Paul and you are simply mentally labeling your visit an "event" which lasts until you leave.

Interceptor_Knight said:

If it is not of limited duration then it is of unlimited duration. Once again, please articulate what "event" of limited duration you are authorized to carry at. I suspect it is the same as Paul and you are simply mentally labeling your visit an "event" which lasts until you leave.

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Please define "event"

Interceptor_Knight said:

It is clear that you are getting away with something which if cited for you may not be able to defend against in court. You are calling each of your visits to the establishment an "event" but it is obvious that they are not an official "event".

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The 'event' is dinner, or, karaoke, or, hanging out with my wife, or watching the World Series.

1. something that happens or is regarded as happening; anoccurrence, especially one of some importance.
2.the outcome, issue, or result of anything: The venture had nosuccessful event.

3.something that occurs in a certain place during a particularinterval of time.

Brass Magnet said:

Please define "event"

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Some examples would be a:
Banquet
Gun Show
Craft Show
Pig Roast
Concert


Something advertised as such would certainly help your case...

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

The 'event' is dinner, or, karaoke, or, hanging out with my wife, or watching the World Series.

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All of those may be "events" in your life but not events that the tavern is conducting unless it is an advertised "World Series Party", etc...

There is little left to say on the matter as I have made my point. I will agree to disagree in this thread and bow out except to reply to personal attacks..

Interceptor_Knight said:

All of those may be "events" in your life but not events that the tavern is conducting unless it is an advertised "World Series Party", etc...

There is little left to say on the matter as I have made my point. I will agree to disagree in this thread and bow out except to reply to personal attacks..

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Can you please provide a citation where 'event' is defined in the law? If not, it would be an interpretation issue up to initially the responding LEO and eventually the judge.

My reading is that the key is that the event is of limited duration, in other words, I can't be granted blanket permission unless, to your previous point, I am an agent, which, you are right, has a legal definition.

Interceptor_Knight said:

Some examples would be a:
Banquet
Gun Show
Craft Show
Pig Roast
Concert


Something advertised as such would certainly help your case...

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What ever happened to good ole' Webster?

Definition of EVENT

1
a archaic : outcome b : the final outcome or determination of a legal action c : a postulated outcome, condition, or eventuality <in the event that I am not there, call the house>

2
a : something that happens : occurrence b : a noteworthy happening c : a social occasion or activity d : an adverse or damaging medical occurrence <a heart attack or other cardiac event>


3

: any of the contests in a program of sports

4
: the fundamental entity of observed physical reality represented by a point designated by three coordinates of place and one of time in the space-time continuum postulated by the theory of relativity

5
: a subset of the possible outcomes of an experiment

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Now if you can show me something in the Wisconsin statutes that defines "event" as narrowly as you do I'll be impressed.

HandyHamlet said:

The opinions of your crack team of imaginary sock puppet lawyers mean absolutely nothing...

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I forget.. Is this guy actually Doug?

Interceptor_Knight said:

I forget.. Is this guy actually Doug?

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Well..... all I can say is I have personally met Mr Hamlet and he doesn't look like the gentleman who made the video describing the disconnect between 167.31 and 941.23.