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Thread: 357 Sig...what do you think?

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    357 Sig...what do you think?

    Good day everyone. I have been looking up different rounds lately and was wondering how many people out there shoot 357 sig and how they like it. I was also wondering what you think about it as a defensive round? I tried searching for 357 sig posts, but i can't seem to get anything when i search, so i hope i'm not repeating a discussion that has already been done. Anyway, I'm not trying to bring up the caliber debate, just wondering about this particular round.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    I usually carry an HK-USPc in 357 sig. The round is a bit of a boutique cartridge but the ballistics are there and it shoots very well. Being boutique, it's hard to find a wide range of ammo for it in local stores so that might be something you want to consider. I particularly like that it's head spaced on the shoulder as opposed to the case mouth or rim. If you reload this makes for a lot better control and less worry about case trimming. That being said, there isn't much neck to hold the bullet either which is a bit of a downside and was a problem with certain brands of ammo; especially Federal American Eagle, early on. I haven't seen any issues lately though and I think the manufacturers might have added a bit more neck tension.

    Anyway, it pretty much duplicates 357 mag 125gr ballistics in a semi auto pistol vs having a revolver or desert eagle with the longer 357 mag cartridge. So, as a self defense round it's more than capable.

    I like mine a lot and don't think I'd ever get rid of it.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 11-10-2011 at 09:14 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    I usually carry an HK-USPc in 357 sig. The round is a bit of a boutique cartridge but the ballistics are there and it shoots very well. I particularly like that it's head spaced on the shoulder as opposed to the case mouth or rim. If you reload this makes for a lot better control and less worry about case trimming. That being said, there isn't much neck to hold the bullet either which is a bit of a downside.

    Anyway, it pretty much duplicates 357 mag 125gr ballistics in a semi auto pistol vs having a revolver or desert eagle with the longer 357 mag cartridge. So, as a self defense round it's more than capable.
    +1

    it is a very good round. it is what the US Secret service carries in their sig's. amazing at penetrating glass and car doors as well. it will put em down. that's for sure
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    The .357 sig is just a .40 s&W necked down to shoot a 9mm bullet. So if you think the 9mm nato +p is enough for defensive purposes then the .357 sig will be too, because its something like ++P++.

    I have never shot a .357 or a .40, but I have been looking into the .357. It seems to fit me more than the .40. Remember though, ammo is hard to come by, like what was mentioned. It either has to be reloaded or ordered.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    A good friend of mine carries the Glock in .357 Sig. Nice shooter, and it does a very good imitation of a .357 Magnum on steel plates. I sometimes shoot at the same range that the local Air Marshalls use, and the ground is covered with .357 Sig nickel-plated brass the next day, as well as a couple dropped loaded Gold Dots, so that's what they are using.

    Texas DPS (including the Texas Rangers) moved to the .357 Sig to regain the penetration they used to have with the .357 Magnum when shooting at cars. They had gone with the .45 ACP when they moved to automatics.

    My personal opinion is that it is a little too much gun for average self-defense. It's hard to imagine a self-defense scenario that has one needing to shoot a threat that is behind serious cover. This is much more likely a possibility for police, however. But as long as you are aware of this penetration and can plan accordingly, I won't tell you not to use it. After all, there just may be a time when it could come in handy. And yes, I feel the same way about the .357 Magnum. When not carrying my .45, my .357 snubbie is loaded with .38 +P loads except for the last round of magnum hard-cast.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    The .357 sig is just a .40 s&W necked down to shoot a 9mm bullet. So if you think the 9mm nato +p is enough for defensive purposes then the .357 sig will be too, because its something like ++P++.

    I have never shot a .357 or a .40, but I have been looking into the .357. It seems to fit me more than the .40. Remember though, ammo is hard to come by, like what was mentioned. It either has to be reloaded or ordered.
    Just a note of caution here: The 357 sig has the same bolt face and is based on the 40 S&W but the sig case is just a wee bit longer. Basically, for reloaders, it's not a great idea to "neck down" a 40 case and try to load the sig. The neck area to grip the bullet is small enough already.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 11-10-2011 at 12:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by

    Anyway, it pretty much duplicates 357 mag 125gr ballistics in a semi auto pistol vs having a revolver or desert eagle with the longer 357 mag cartridge. So, as a self defense round it's more than capable.
    While the .357Sig has it merits it doesn't duplicate the ballitics of the .357mag, even when .357 mag is fired from a revolver.


    http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...t_detail&p=123

    http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...t_detail&p=103
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    Last edited by Marco; 11-16-2011 at 12:30 PM.
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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    Anyway, it pretty much duplicates 357 mag 125gr ballistics in a semi auto pistol vs having a revolver or desert eagle with the longer 357 mag cartridge. So, as a self defense round it's more than capable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent19 View Post
    While the .357Sig has it merits it doesn't duplicate the ballitics of the .357mag, even when .357 mag is fired from a revolver.
    That's kind of picking nits, I'd say that 100fps difference qualifies as "pretty much" duplicating the ballistics. I didn't claim it was equal.

    Gold Dot Personal Protection - 357 SIG
    Part Number Cartridge Bullet Wt. Bullet Type Box Count Bullet Coefficient
    23918 357 SIG 125 GDHP 20 0.141


    Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
    Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
    1350 1184 1066 506 389 316


    Trajectory if sighted at 25 yards Test Barrel Length in inches Usage
    25 yards 50 yards 75 yards 100 yards
    0.0 -0.5 -2.5 -6.2 4 1


    old Dot Personal Protection - 357 Magnum
    Part Number Cartridge Bullet Wt. Bullet Type Box Count Bullet Coefficient
    23920 357 Magnum 125 GDHP 20 0.14


    Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
    Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
    1450 1261 1118 584 441 347


    Trajectory if sighted at 25 yards Test Barrel Length in inches Usage
    25 yards 50 yards 75 yards 100 yards
    0.0 -0.3 -2.0 -5.2 4-V 1
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    That's kind of picking nits, I'd say that 100fps difference qualifies as "pretty much" duplicating the ballistics. I didn't claim it was equal.
    I don't see 340FPS as picking nits but to each their own......
    Corbon 125gr 125gr JHP =1680fps from a 5"bbl semi auto refer to my op click on picture.

    The .357sig does have it's merits and since you did say " the 125gr pretty much duplicates" I will concede the point.


    Higher velocity and lower pressures than 9mm +p+ with the same number of rounds as a .40S&W and slightly less felt recoil than most 40S&W SD ammo.
    Last edited by Marco; 11-16-2011 at 12:32 PM.
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    Havent fired it myself, but based on all accounts of it's use in action, I would'nt hesitate to make use of it. It's -so far- been reported to be roughly as effective as both .357 Mag. and .45 auto. (THE kings of fighting handgun rounds). And that's a LOT better than can be said of 9mm and .40 S&W, by a long shot.

    I cant imagine it NOT having a hefty/snappy recoil though- if one bases it on just 9mm+P, and the like , for comparison. But again, havent fired it yet to see.

    As for penetration, I think folks put way too much fear into that line of thought with a lot of calibers/rounds. My take is better safe, than sorry-. You never know when/where/under what conditions a defensive shooting might occur, nor what the enemy might be wearing.
    Especially during winter months, in cold environs when folks are wearing layers on top of layers,and with who knows what inside their pockets that may block or deflect the incoming round?
    Factor in also the possibility of being in or around your car if something goes down. If you have to shoot back, and your rounds just end up denting or bouncing off of sheet metal-then is NOT the time to regret having NOT gone with something with a bit more punch...
    Last edited by j4l; 11-16-2011 at 02:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent19 View Post
    I don't see 340FPS as picking nits but to each their own......
    Corbon 125gr 125gr JHP =1680fps from a 5"bbl semi auto refer to my op click on picture.
    Barrel length is a huge factor. My examples both compared 4" barrels. .357 mag can take more advantage out of a longer barrel than .357 sig as it's got a larger case capacity. The longer barrel gives the powder more time to burn and the sig reaches the area of diminishing returns before the mag.

    So, I'll in turn concede that the 357 mag gets even better than the Sig as barrel length increases.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 11-16-2011 at 02:45 PM.
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    The Virginia State Police carry the .357 Sig in a Sig 226; bur really if you want .357 ballistics then why not just carry a .357 revolver? If you just simply have to have a .357 semi, Coogan has their 1911 clone that fires regular revolver ammo (if you are one of those who believes carrying a 1911 in Condition One, which I don't. And let's not have that argument, it's been done to death. I don't believe in carrying one in the chamber and the hammer back.)

    I am old enough to remember when everyone oohed and aahhed over the .357 and claimed it could "penetrate an engine block" and stop a car cold. That is patently BS, as I hope everyone now knows.

    IMO, if what you carry doesn't use ammo you can regularly get with a trip to a commonly available ammo dealer, then you aren't going to be able to stay in practice with your carry weapon. The premise of this site is that carrying a firearm is as normal as carrying a bag of groceries, but the difference is you don't need to practice eating food (and in fact several of us are a bit over-enthusiastic in that regard) in order to nourish yourself.

    If having .357 ballistics in a semi-auto which can be safely carried Condition Two is so important, I should think that someone would have taken a cue fron Coogan and designed a clone of the HK/USP. Practically the only thing that differs in the Coogan from a standard 1911 is the design of the chamber and extractor and the design of the magazine. I see no reason why someone could not re-design a DA/SA semi to fire standard .357 revolver cartridges similarly.

    The way I see it, SIG .357 is destined to go the way of the GyroJet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    The Virginia State Police carry the .357 Sig in a Sig 226; bur really if you want .357 ballistics then why not just carry a .357 revolver? If you just simply have to have a .357 semi, Coogan has their 1911 clone that fires regular revolver ammo (if you are one of those who believes carrying a 1911 in Condition One, which I don't. And let's not have that argument, it's been done to death. I don't believe in carrying one in the chamber and the hammer back.)

    I am old enough to remember when everyone oohed and aahhed over the .357 and claimed it could "penetrate an engine block" and stop a car cold. That is patently BS, as I hope everyone now knows.

    IMO, if what you carry doesn't use ammo you can regularly get with a trip to a commonly available ammo dealer, then you aren't going to be able to stay in practice with your carry weapon. The premise of this site is that carrying a firearm is as normal as carrying a bag of groceries, but the difference is you don't need to practice eating food (and in fact several of us are a bit over-enthusiastic in that regard) in order to nourish yourself.

    If having .357 ballistics in a semi-auto which can be safely carried Condition Two is so important, I should think that someone would have taken a cue fron Coogan and designed a clone of the HK/USP. Practically the only thing that differs in the Coogan from a standard 1911 is the design of the chamber and extractor and the design of the magazine. I see no reason why someone could not re-design a DA/SA semi to fire standard .357 revolver cartridges similarly.

    The way I see it, SIG .357 is destined to go the way of the GyroJet.
    Points well taken; well, except for the 1911 carrying conditions.... The revolver vs. auto debate has been rehashed many times as well. As far as ammo availability, Winchester white box in 357sig is always in stock at my local Wal-Mart and self defense ammo at my local Gander Mt. If it ever becomes less available I can see your point; however, I reload anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcabbie View Post
    Practically the only thing that differs in the Coogan from a standard 1911 is the design of the chamber and extractor and the design of the magazine. I see no reason why someone could not re-design a DA/SA semi to fire standard .357 revolver cartridges similarly.

    The way I see it, SIG .357 is destined to go the way of the GyroJet.
    You do know several LEA's have adopted .357Sig to include several Federal agencies, it's here to stay it may not become as common as 40S&W but is not vanishing tomorrow.

    First Coogan is a Clint Eastwood character.. Coonan is the firearm.. and Conan is the barbarian...
    Have you ever handled or fired a Coonan or are just reading what others have wrote in gun rags, it is a 1911 variant not a clone.

    As to the DA/SA issue to each their own...

    Yes, barrel length is an issue but even from a 6" barrel .357Sig falls short.

    http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/357sig.html

    The Sig is still just shy of .357mag even fired from a 6"bbl.
    The 6"barrel Coonan in my Avatar launchs several manufacters 125gr jhp @ over 1700fps, something the Sig could only dream of.



    9mm+P+ pretty much duplicates the .357Sig when fired from Service sized semi auto's:
    http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...t_detail&p=119

    .357 Sig is 9mm +p+/.38 Super/9x23 WITH LOWER PRESSURE
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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent19 View Post

    Yes, barrel length is an issue but even from a 6" barrel .357Sig falls short.

    http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/357sig.html

    The Sig is still just shy of .357mag even fired from a 6"bbl.
    The 6"barrel Coonan in my Avatar launchs several manufacters 125gr jhp @ over 1700fps, something the Sig could only dream of.



    9mm+P+ pretty much duplicates the .357Sig when fired from Service sized semi auto's:
    http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...t_detail&p=119

    .357 Sig is 9mm +p+/.38 Super/9x23 WITH LOWER PRESSURE
    Haha You and I are saying the same thing my friend. The longer the barrel, the more advantage 357 mag has OVER 357 sig. As the barrels get shorter, the advantage get's smaller.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 11-17-2011 at 09:53 AM.
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    The Glock 20 and Glock 32 have been on my "next to buy list" for a while now. I was planning on buying the 10mm this weekend, but ordered a .357 sig this morning instead. The main reason I ordered the 32 now, is I have a million accessories and holsters for the 19/23/32 frame, and I didn't want to spend the extra money I would need for carry options for the 10mm with Christmas shopping season in full swing. My local gun shop carries a brand of .357 sig that's actually reloads, but they seem to be pretty good quality. They're 125 grain fmj's, and run 20 bucks for a box of 50. Although they are reloads, I'm told the powder is excellent quality and won't burn as dirty as the cheap stuff you can order in bulk on the internet does (who wants Communist bullets anyway?). The owner says she sells them to the state police here who practice with them, and they have given nothing but great feedback. It's been a very very long time since I have bought a caliber of gun that I've never previously owned, but hopefully I will be happy with the Glock 32. Time and bullets will tell.

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    Its an interesting cartridge, but if I were to break my own rule about not acquiring any more pistol calibers than I have today (6), I would opt for 10mm instead.
    Last edited by oak1971; 11-17-2011 at 07:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    Haha You and I are saying the same thing my friend. The longer the barrel, the more advantage 357 mag has OVER 357 sig. As the barrels get shorter, the advantage get's smaller.
    And the heavier the bullet.
    140gr Barnes XPB @ 1500fps


    I think Sig has merits, but for those that don't have an issue with 1911's or G20/29 get a 10mm and you could always get conversion barrels/kits in .22LR, .40 S&W, .357Sig and 9x25Dillion.
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    I picked up a used P226 stainless in 40S&W a while back to have another caliber in case 45acp continued to be rare at Walmart.

    After hemming and hawing about it I finally picked up a 357sig barrel for it for another caliber. After buying the barrel I was a bit underwhelmed since I was expecting 357mag fireballs to be shooting out my Sig. ;-)

    The felt recoil seems equal to or less than the 40S&W (which is good) but the ammo cost was right up there if not more than 45acp.

    I debated selling the barrel since I don't plan to carry either 40 or 357 but held onto it just in case. :-) I tend to do that and accumulate guns I can't bear to part with.

    So while it does have some good balistics, I don't think they necessarily justify the cost. I like having the capacity but have other guns with higher capacity in 45acp.

    For me it is a novelty that I will use occassionaly. I don't like having another caliber to stock and haven't for the most part.

    I personally think that 45acp makes a big enough hole and has enough penetration that I don't need to carry anything else. 45acp's two criticisms are capacity and cost. 357sig only solves one of those.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    Barrel length is a huge factor. My examples both compared 4" barrels. .357 mag can take more advantage out of a longer barrel than .357 sig as it's got a larger case capacity. The longer barrel gives the powder more time to burn and the sig reaches the area of diminishing returns before the mag.

    So, I'll in turn concede that the 357 mag gets even better than the Sig as barrel length increases.
    Another thing to think about:

    When the measurement is quoted on revolver barrels, it includes everything from the face of the cylinder to the muzzle. When auto-loader barrel measurements are quoted, it usually includes everything forward of the breach: i.e. the chamber and everything forward.

    So, the effect is: if you have a 4" autoloader and a 4" revolver, the 4" auto actually has about 2.4" of useful barrel length for 9mm length cartridges ~1.6" of chamber... but the revolver still has 4", minus the cylinder gap effect

    357 SIG has about 20 grains of H2O capacity, .357 MAG has about 27--but the SIG isn't 30% less powerful as you'd expect by that difference, and also considering the difference in barrel length: 357 SIG actually has a slightly higher max pressure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CO-Joe View Post
    Another thing to think about:

    When the measurement is quoted on revolver barrels, it includes everything from the face of the cylinder to the muzzle. When auto-loader barrel measurements are quoted, it usually includes everything forward of the breach: i.e. the chamber and everything forward.

    So, the effect is: if you have a 4" autoloader and a 4" revolver, the 4" auto actually has about 2.4" of useful barrel length for 9mm length cartridges ~1.6" of chamber... but the revolver still has 4", minus the cylinder gap effect

    357 SIG has about 20 grains of H2O capacity, .357 MAG has about 27--but the SIG isn't 30% less powerful as you'd expect by that difference, and also considering the difference in barrel length: 357 SIG actually has a slightly higher max pressure.
    Revolver barrels are measured from the forcing cone to the tip of the barrel.
    The cylinder gap causes gas/pressure to escape, something the semi auto doesn't experience, though part of the barrel length is lost to the cartridge in a semi auto all the pressure/gas is directed forward.
    An semi auto and revolver with the same barrel length and chambered in the same caliber the semi auto will produce the higher velocity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent19 View Post
    Revolver barrels are measured from the forcing cone to the tip of the barrel.
    The cylinder gap causes gas/pressure to escape, something the semi auto doesn't experience, though part of the barrel length is lost to the cartridge in a semi auto all the pressure/gas is directed forward.
    An semi auto and revolver with the same barrel length and chambered in the same caliber the semi auto will produce the higher velocity.
    Right. So, unless you decide the nominal +/- 0.006" from the cylinder face to the forcing cone doesn't count, what I said doesn't apply how? Not much power is lost through the gap. Folks with Thompson contenders have measured it, and it's on the order of 25-40fps at most for many calibers. Another thing you're ignoring is the energy required to cycle the action, you know, it comes from some place--so that likely equals it out.

    Still doesn't change the fact that you'll need a 5.25"+ barrel in an auto pistol to have the same rifled bore as you would have in a 4" revolver.

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    Question

    Para LDA 3" bbl=1081 fps
    S&W 625 3"bbl =972 fps
    ammo used = 45acp Corbon 185gr jhp+p

    S&W 627 5.6"bbl =1505 fps
    Coonan 5" bbl = 1680 fps
    Coonan 6" bbl = 1770
    ammo used = .357 mag Corbon 125gr jhp

    STI 6"bbl =1550
    Ammo used = .357Sig Corbon 125gr jhp

    Believe what you like.
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    I want to start off by saying that I am new to the community and I am in no way trying to start any argument, just stating an opinion.

    I own a P250 with two barrels, .40 and 357 sig. I personally love the 357. I love the way it shoots and the higher FPS.

    Regarding the mag vs sig in FPS, my sig has a short barrel, so I don't have to worry about the decreased FPS and the mag being "too far superior" to the sig round.

    Regarding limited supply of sig ammo, I have found that all of my local gun shops and sportsmen stores have plenty of it in stock, including critical defense, poly tips, and more. My only complaint is that it is more expensive, however I feel that you pay for your defense.

    I also agree that you can never be more prepared for what might happen. You might get mugged at point blank, or you might be sitting in your car in a parking lot with your windows up. Whatever the case you need to be able to take down your target. That being said, with that penetration power you need to be able to observe the entire situation and determine the best shot with no colateral dammage, and all under a stressful situation, and fast.

    I know I have beaten a dead horse here a little bit, but I guess my major point is that if you like that round, then use it. I regularly use both the 40 and the 357, along with other calibers of course with other guns, but in the P250 platform, I most enjoy the 357.

    Hope this aided in a healthy conversation about the 357 sig.

    Happy shooting!

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Franklin, N.C. & Savannah, Ga.
    Posts
    37
    OK, my eyeballs are going round & round in my head from all the statistics on this thread. I shoot 357sig from a sub-compact Glock & from a S&W M&P with a 5" barrel. I love this round for self defense. I carry the Glock with 40S&W in the spring & summer months and switch over to a 357sig barrel for the fall & winter to take advantage of the added penetration through winter coats. I also own a Glock20 and love shooting 10mm as well, but I don't carry it. Both rounds cost alot more than 9mm or even the 40s&w ammo, but I don't shoot a lot of it at the range. I opt for 9mm when target shooting normally to save my wrist & my wallet. If you are considering getting a 357sig then look into swapping barrels between 40s&w, 357sig & 9mm. The investment in the two extra barrels will pay off in the long run.
    Soldiers are dying for our freedom. The least we can do is vote.

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