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Thread: Getting legislation for EMS to carry firearms

  1. #1
    Regular Member Jay's Avatar
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    Getting legislation for EMS to carry firearms

    Gents and ladies,

    More and more these days I am reading incidents of EMS professionals being assaulted on the job this just happened recently in Arizona.

    http://www.jems.com/article/news/man...ing-emsa-medic

    40% of EMS related injuries are assault related calling cops before hand waiting for scene safety would have never helped this medic. Medic transported an ex girlfriend of this criminal to a hospital. While the medic was sitting in the seat of ambulance in the parking lot of the hospital with his window down. The ex boyfriend walked up and tried to cut him with a knife. The ex had prior felony convictions with firearms as well as a laundry list of other convictions. When does it stop!!!

    Some of you may or may not know that the regulations for EMS providers is governed by the Virginia Office of Emergency Medical Services a few years back there was a regulation that stated only law enforcement could carry a firearm. The office received much opposition about this and decided to retract it. There was one part in the regulation that wasn't retracted, but there is a letter from the director saying they will not enforce the regulation. That is all fine and dandy.

    However the issue still remains that individual county and city governments can still forbid it. I will love to see a regulation get passed that takes it out of the control of the individual entity to forbid. I understand I should contact my local legislature, but I am looking for help, guidance, and most importantly support!!

    Thoughts??
    "Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again"

  2. #2
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    First step Jay.

    Write it. Every time I have legislation introduced, I have to write it.
    Find a Patron. He'll rewrite what you worked so hard on.
    Lobby for it.

  3. #3
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Just some thoughts... any such legislation would have to override all other authorities that prohibited you to carry. Just like LEOs. You will never know where you might be called to treat someone who is ill or injured, you can't be concerned with school property lines, or federal buildings, etc, etc, etc.

    TFred

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    I understand where your coming from and truly see the need but now I'll be the bad guy here...
    I don't agree with creating another 'special class' of citizen so I wouldn't support it.
    The long list of restrictions (infringements) need to be eliminated for all people.

  5. #5
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    TFred makes an excellent point. Such legislation would be a paper tiger if EMS were still prohibited from carrying on school grounds, in courtrooms, hospital private property with signage, etc. unless lockable gunboxes were installed to secure the weapon before entry to a prohibited place. This necessarily would involve handling loaded firearms in emergency situations, which is a recipe for disaster and a public relations nightmare. Jails I wouldn't worry about, because even LEOs can't carry inside a jail. The only problem there is if the EMS provider didn't want his coworkers to know he was armed. Choices have to be made.

    Toad makes another excellent point. Maybe I'm biased, but I think EMS (and fire) should be treated differently, just as LEOs are treated differently. Other than finding a different job, we don't have a choice to not go into dangerous or prohibited places.

    As much as I'd like a clean law that says on duty EMS is authorized to carry a firearm, employers will have a fit. One way to offset opposition is to require candidates to complete an LEO firearm qualification course and to have a CHP. This would allow for firearm proficiency and law knowledge standards to be met without having to create a new EMS firearm course. Successful completion of these requirements would have to be filed with the employer, and the employer I'm sure would still insist on certain stipulations upon the armed employee such as concealed carry only, safety features of firearm and holster, factory ammo, disqualification of the privilege due to negligence, etc. Personally, I would require armed EMS providers to carry in a removable bag (like Bagmaster) or fanny pack so that storage could take place quickly and without displaying the firearm if I my agency frequented places like prisons, although I do know of one agency that requires prison personnel to bring patients to them, outside the gate. Virtually all ambulances have lockable compartments that can be used for storage of firearms.

    Alternatively, with the cooperation of local LEOs and/or the courts, armed EMS could become certified as jailers through an online class and be considered Sheriff's volunteers, or could become Conservators by the Circuit Court. I know less about these routes to arming EMS.

    I also would like such a law to be worded carefully to allow ALL 911 EMS to carry, and possibly ALL transport EMS personnel. Transport EMS personnel also go to dangerous places, since they have no choice in assignment when returned ED patients to their homes, and occasionally provide mutual aid to 911. My case in point, I work in a rural 911 setting, but I am there on contract. My employer is a private health care system that prohibits firearms possession. If a law were to be passed, would it apply to me and my employer, since I do not work for a municipality? Depends on the wording.

    Do any other states authorize EMS to carry? That's the best place to start looking for model legislation and regulation.

    Here's a quick sample piece of legislation I just cooked up:


    EMS PROVIDERS' SAFETY AND RIGHT TO SELF DEFENSE ACT OF 2011


    On duty EMS (Emergency Medical Services) personnel are authorized to carry firearms and other tools for safety and self defense, to include edged, impact, chemical and electrical devices, provided certain conditions are met and all other firearms law are observed.

    On duty EMS personnel may be armed at all times except when entering the secured areas of correctional facilities.

    1. The on duty EMS provider must have satisfactorily completed a VA DCJS firearms qualification program and hold a valid permit to conceal a firearm before carrying a firearm under this statute.

    2. The on duty EMS provider must remain in compliance with his employer's guidelines for carrying a firearm pertaining to concealment, safety systems of the firearm and holster, and requirement of factory manufactured ammunition.

    3. The on duty EMS provider must remain in compliance with his employer's guidelines for carrying other self defense tools.

    4. The on duty EMS provider may have his privilege of carrying any or all tools under this statute suspended or revoked by his employer for unsafe or dangerous actions related to the tools listed. Employers shall not prohibit employees from carrying self defense tools without cause.

    An on duty EMS provider is defined as 1. A person certified by the Virginia Department of Health, Division of EMS; and 2. Any career or volunteer EMS provider who is either staffing a licensed EMS vehicle or EMS station, or who is "on call" and has responded to a request for EMS services.

    VA DCJS certification satisfies compliance with the statute for the purposes of training.

    VA DCJS certified law enforcement officers who are exempt from 18.2-308 for the purpose of obtaining a Concealed Handgun Permit are exempt from the carry permit requirement of this statute.


    FINDINGS

    EMS providers have proven themselves responsible citizens, capable of making appropriate decisions in life threatening situations.

    EMS providers are at unusual risk of assault due to their unique status as first responders.

    EMS providers respond to incidents that have the potential to become violent.

    EMS providers respond to scenes where the exact nature of the problem cannot be verified by their dispatcher.

    EMS providers respond to scenes where there is no law enforcement presence.

    EMS providers regularly receive patients who are brought to the EMS station without advance notice, to include patients who have been the victims of assault.

    EMS providers and vehicles have been the target of unprovoked violence.

    EMS personnel and vehicles have been identified as high value targets by criminals and terrorists.

    EMS personnel are often prohibited from carrying self defense tools by their employer without cause.
    Last edited by paramedic70002; 11-11-2011 at 12:29 PM.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    For some very explicit discussions of the subject, look here: http://ambulancedriverfiles.com/ . Kelly also has links to other EMS-specific blogs where the issue has also been discussed withi the professional ranks.

    As an uninvolved spectator I have to say that as much as I wish there were no restrictions on who could carry or where they could carry, arming EMS raises concerns primarily because of the diversion in situational awareness in order to attend to patients. Maybe an assigned shotgun guard? I just don't know where the "most elegant" answer is to be found.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Skid, I'll give you my answer. I carried a Glock 19 in a Bagmaster for years when I did volunteer EMS in Suffolk. I will neither confirm nor deny whether I ever answered a call inside a prohibited place. Suffolk is not a nice place when you're riding the medic on Saturday night. Suffolk EMS providers have been subject to numerous assaults and threats over the years.

    http://www.bagmaster.com/cart/produc...k%20Medium.htm

    The Bagmaster rode in the 3:30 position. There was no way it could open by accident. You have to run the zipper around the top to access the firearm. No quick-zip pull strap. Adds a second to the draw but necessary in that environment. It could fall off if struck unusually hard and at the right angle but would remain closed. The heavy metal clip ensured you would have to be unconscious or stupid not to know it was being removed from your belt.

    It was set slightly rear of 3:00 so could be protected/deflected by the arm, and away from the patient. It was "EMS black" and completely overlooked. If you were to sew a Star of Life on it, even better.

    Were there times when I was totally involved in patient care? Yes. Times I wouldn't have known my GUN was being diddled with or someone was threatening me? NO F'IN WAY!

    In another EMS job, where I had to wear a button down instead of a tee shirt, I wore a Taurus 38 snub under and forward of my left armpit in that natural pocket between manbreast and spare tire using a high belly band with security strap. Completely invisible, not going to fall out, and I knew where it was at all times.

    Since EMS providers are frequently kneeling, squatting or sitting, an ankle holster is another viable option as long as it is set high and the pants are hemmed low. I used to wear an extra black sock over mine to make it more invisible, which worked great when I had a backup while working.

    Most EMS providers wear cargo pants or shorts. Perfect place for your gat and can be reinforced for retention by adding velcro or snaps.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
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  8. #8
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    The real challenge will be to find a legislator willing to carry the water on this one. It is not without controversy or opposition.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  9. #9
    Regular Member Mayhem's Avatar
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    I have to disagree

    Hello to everyone and a thank you to all the vets out there who have served our great country.

    @Jay... With what you have provided, I am not convinced we need to enact new legislation to arm medics with firearms. This would require so many laws, local, state, and federal to allow medics into locations that the rest of the public may not be allowed to go armed.

    In the news story you provided, the bad guy is outside the ambulance and not even a patient being treated. This makes the situation no different than the rest of us “working people” driving down the road.

    The last paragraph makes it clear that there is no dire need to arm medics. It seems that it is very rare in Tulsa for medics to even be attacked.

    "Stevens said attacks on medics aren’t unheard of but happen very rarely in Tulsa."

    I would submit that taxi drivers and pizza delivery people are at higher risk and should also be allowed to go armed before medics.

    So with that in mind… how do we decide who gets to be armed at work?

    The police are attacked and many killed each year so they have an obvious need to be armed. We are paying taxes for them to go to the danger and get the bad guy. Medics do not have that same duty or expectation. They can wait for the police to declare the scene safe before they enter. There is always going to be risk in anything you do.

    Everyone should be permitted to go to work armed but most of us work for an employer who sets the rules. I do not think the state should have the right the tell employers to take on additional risk and liability and mandate that an employee can carry a firearm that is not required to carry out their job.

  10. #10
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Hello to everyone and a thank you to all the vets out there who have served our great country.

    @Jay... With what you have provided, I am not convinced we need to enact new legislation to arm medics with firearms. This would require so many laws, local, state, and federal to allow medics into locations that the rest of the public may not be allowed to go armed.

    Federal issues could be sidestepped by having EMS certified as jailers or Conservators as previously mentioned.

    In the news story you provided, the bad guy is outside the ambulance and not even a patient being treated. This makes the situation no different than the rest of us “working people” driving down the road.

    The last paragraph makes it clear that there is no dire need to arm medics. It seems that it is very rare in Tulsa for medics to even be attacked.

    "Stevens said attacks on medics aren’t unheard of but happen very rarely in Tulsa."

    I would submit that taxi drivers and pizza delivery people are at higher risk and should also be allowed to go armed before medics.

    Good point but the slope is a fair bit steeper on that hill. maybe EMS is the camel's nose under the tent.

    So with that in mind… how do we decide who gets to be armed at work?

    The police are attacked and many killed each year so they have an obvious need to be armed. We are paying taxes for them to go to the danger and get the bad guy. Medics do not have that same duty or expectation. They can wait for the police to declare the scene safe before they enter. There is always going to be risk in anything you do.

    Medics have a duty to respond. Failure to respond will get you sued and out of work real quick. LEOs less so since SCOTUS said they have no mandate to protect citizens. Most Medics either get payed with tax money or otherwise benefit from said monies. Medics FREQUENTLY arrive on scene without LEOs to find active crime scenes that the 911 caller "forgot" to mention. BTDT.

    Everyone should be permitted to go to work armed but most of us work for an employer who sets the rules. I do not think the state should have the right the tell employers to take on additional risk and liability and mandate that an employee can carry a firearm that is not required to carry out their job.

    Mandating authorization should largely negate increased risk and liability. Does having store clerks check IDs for alcohol and tobacco sales substantially increase or decrease 7-11's liability?
    ...
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  11. #11
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Jay -

    While not directly related, I just wanted to throw this out there. On the back burner is a gun safety class that I have been writing for EMS personnel who may have to remove/secure a handgun from a patient. I did some research and was told by one rescue squad member that the police give a short presentation on the topic, but that its pretty much hands off the gun and let the police handle it.

    What do you think of such a class?
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
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  12. #12
    Regular Member Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    For some very explicit discussions of the subject, look here: http://ambulancedriverfiles.com/ . Kelly also has links to other EMS-specific blogs where the issue has also been discussed withi the professional ranks.

    As an uninvolved spectator I have to say that as much as I wish there were no restrictions on who could carry or where they could carry, arming EMS raises concerns primarily because of the diversion in situational awareness in order to attend to patients. Maybe an assigned shotgun guard? I just don't know where the "most elegant" answer is to be found.

    stay safe.
    Skid in all honesty I think concealed carry would be the best when on an ambulance or if outside level III all the way.
    "Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again"

  13. #13
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    ProShooter,

    Here's something I put together a couple years ago. Feel free...

    http://www.emsworld.com/article/1032...ackin-patients
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  14. #14
    Regular Member Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Hello to everyone and a thank you to all the vets out there who have served our great country.

    @Jay... With what you have provided, I am not convinced we need to enact new legislation to arm medics with firearms. This would require so many laws, local, state, and federal to allow medics into locations that the rest of the public may not be allowed to go armed.

    In the news story you provided, the bad guy is outside the ambulance and not even a patient being treated. This makes the situation no different than the rest of us “working people” driving down the road.

    The last paragraph makes it clear that there is no dire need to arm medics. It seems that it is very rare in Tulsa for medics to even be attacked.

    "Stevens said attacks on medics aren’t unheard of but happen very rarely in Tulsa."

    I would submit that taxi drivers and pizza delivery people are at higher risk and should also be allowed to go armed before medics.

    So with that in mind… how do we decide who gets to be armed at work?

    The police are attacked and many killed each year so they have an obvious need to be armed. We are paying taxes for them to go to the danger and get the bad guy. Medics do not have that same duty or expectation. They can wait for the police to declare the scene safe before they enter. There is always going to be risk in anything you do.

    Everyone should be permitted to go to work armed but most of us work for an employer who sets the rules. I do not think the state should have the right the tell employers to take on additional risk and liability and mandate that an employee can carry a firearm that is not required to carry out their job.
    Possibly like Paramedic has said some type of certification by local sheriff I know in Albemarle County there are 50 reserve volunteer deputies that are allowed to carry they are all volunteers. I am not trying to make this though where we are there to enforce laws and arrest people. I want this to protect ourselves if a situation goes bad and the cops are not their to protect us. If we know before hand that the scene is not good to go in we do not go in armed or not we wait for the cops to do their job.

    As far as no dire need I have given one example of what happened. Here are two more off the top of my head within the past year. How many examples do you need isn't one enough?? At what point will it be worth it to you or to my life??? I will say it again 40% of all EMS related injuries are the result of an assault.

    New York I believe Long Island Ambulance service responded for a motor vehicle accident they get there before police does. Does this sound like something you need to wait for the police to show up for?? Well it is not, however when the crew approached one of the wrecked vehicles without warning. One of the "patients" got out of the vehicle and began shooting at EMS that were approaching it.

    San Antonio Texas EMT and Paramedic responded for difficulty breathing. (no need for police for this) When they arrived they determined the patient really needed to go to the hospital. The patient wanted to refuse treatment they suggest because of his condition it was not a good idea. I know from past experience patients that are in dire need to go even if they refuse we still try to convince them for at least ten minutes or so. To make sure they fully understand the consequences that could happen. The patient pulled a gun on them and it turned into a two hour standoff.

    In Florida a women pulled a gun on EMT's that were sent to her house from a family member who was out of state because they were doing a welfare check.

    Based on these three and I am sure I can find tons more there is no way the responding EMS would have known that they would have needed police before hand.

    And I beg to differ with you we have the same duty to respond as law enforcement does. When we are on duty and a 911 call comes we can't just say ahh the hell with it I am not going on this one.
    "Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again"

  15. #15
    Regular Member Jay's Avatar
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    Paramedic7002 what you wrote is terrific. I was brainstorming some ideas for legislation as well which I will send to you. I really want to try and get something done about. I have seen dummer laws then this passed, but then again who knows. I will message you what I got maybe we can brainstorm a little. Are you near Albemarle at all??
    "Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again"

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    ProShooter,

    Here's something I put together a couple years ago. Feel free...

    http://www.emsworld.com/article/1032...ackin-patients
    Very interesting. Looks like we both were thinking along the same lines. Well done.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  17. #17
    Regular Member Mayhem's Avatar
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    Military combat medics

    @paramedic70002

    "Federal issues could be sidestepped by having EMS certified as jailers or Conservators as previously mentioned."

    I would have to question the roll the medics treating me if they are cross-certified. If I was being treated after an auto accident and they were asking me questions about drugs or alcohol... this information would be privileged under HIPPA. But am I… voluntarily telling a LEO or a medic??

    "Good point but the slope is a fair bit steeper on that hill. Maybe EMS is the camel's nose under the tent."

    But the question is there... Why a medic first and not one of the other professions that have a greater risk? We would need a blanket that would permit all professions to carry at work.

    "Medics have a duty to respond. Failure to respond will get you sued and out of work real quick. LEOs less so since SCOTUS said they have no mandate to protect citizens. Most Medics either get payed with tax money or otherwise benefit from said monies. Medics FREQUENTLY arrive on scene without LEOs to find active crime scenes that the 911 caller "forgot" to mention. BTDT."

    I think all public safety jobs, police, fire, and ems have a duty to go to the call for service. But none of them have an obligation to enter a scene that is not safe. None of the three would be expected to rush up to a house with a sniper shooting at them. If a fire or EMS unit determines a scene is a danger, would you have them deploy firearms and go in anyway?

    "Mandating authorization should largely negate increased risk and liability. Does having store clerks check IDs for alcohol and tobacco sales substantially increase or decrease 7-11's liability?"

    I disagree. It makes no difference if a company elects to do it or if the state forces them to. The simple fact that the employees could now do something that could cause the company to be liable for injury or death of another would certainly cause the company’s insurance rates to go up or possibly get dropped.

    I doubt there is any insurance liability involved in selling a kid a beer or a pack of smokes. That employee could be arrested at best. But we are not talking about items for sale at a store; we are talking about people being armed when their job description does not require it.



    @Jay

    “How many examples do you need isn't one enough??”

    Sorry Jay, But just because something happens (even if only once) is no justification to make change. That argument could be made against all us gun owners so easily by the gun grabbers.

    One can argue: How many children have been injured by unsecured guns? Therefore, we need a law to force gun owners to use trigger locks.


    Can either of you show me what percentages of medics have received serious injury or death that could have been prevented had they been in possession of a firearm?

    In my opinion, I do not see the immediate need to have EMS armed and trained like a military combat medics. Maybe I have not seen enough stories on the news.

    My mind is open… I am just not convinced yet.

  18. #18
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    Paramedic7002 what you wrote is terrific. I was brainstorming some ideas for legislation as well which I will send to you. I really want to try and get something done about. I have seen dummer laws then this passed, but then again who knows. I will message you what I got maybe we can brainstorm a little. Are you near Albemarle at all??
    Nah I pretty stick close to home in the Franklin area.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  19. #19
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    http://www.emsnetwork.org/artman2/pu...assaults.shtml

    Hey Jay don't forget that Long Island NY EMT that was shot in the back and killed a couple years ago while running away from a psychotic patient with a rifle.

    The NC Paramedic who was shot by a drunk she was trying to give a ride home.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  20. #20
    Regular Member Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    @Jay

    “How many examples do you need isn't one enough??”

    Sorry Jay, But just because something happens (even if only once) is no justification to make change. That argument could be made against all us gun owners so easily by the gun grabbers.

    One can argue: How many children have been injured by unsecured guns? Therefore, we need a law to force gun owners to use trigger locks.


    Can either of you show me what percentages of medics have received serious injury or death that could have been prevented had they been in possession of a firearm?

    In my opinion, I do not see the immediate need to have EMS armed and trained like a military combat medics. Maybe I have not seen enough stories on the news.

    My mind is open… I am just not convinced yet.
    A lot of states do have regulations that require owners to lock firearms if children are around, and hold them criminally liable if a child is injured by an improperly stored firearm.

    I am not looking at making them military combat medics even though a lot of police agencies are arming EMT's & Medics as Tactical Medics across the county. I am looking at allowing "us" to carry a firearm for the times when we don't know that a scene will turn unsafe for us with no PD around.

    No I do not have statistics I know there have been a couple times that I have had very close calls personally over sixteen years. The only thing I do know is and I will repeat it again 40% of EMS injuries are assault related.

    My final statement before you pass judgement on if you think we should be armed. Are you an EMT? Paramedic? Firefighter? Police Officer? any type of First Responder involved in street level public safety? If not I really do not understand how you can think or possibly know what we need and do not need? There is a lot of stuff that never makes it to the media more so now with HIPPA.
    "Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again"

  21. #21
    Regular Member Mayhem's Avatar
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    Agree to disagree

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    A lot of states do have regulations that require owners to lock firearms if children are around, and hold them criminally liable if a child is injured by an improperly stored firearm.

    I am not looking at making them military combat medics even though a lot of police agencies are arming EMT's & Medics as Tactical Medics across the county. I am looking at allowing "us" to carry a firearm for the times when we don't know that a scene will turn unsafe for us with no PD around.

    No I do not have statistics I know there have been a couple times that I have had very close calls personally over sixteen years. The only thing I do know is and I will repeat it again 40% of EMS injuries are assault related.

    My final statement before you pass judgement on if you think we should be armed. Are you an EMT? Paramedic? Firefighter? Police Officer? any type of First Responder involved in street level public safety? If not I really do not understand how you can think or possibly know what we need and do not need? There is a lot of stuff that never makes it to the media more so now with HIPPA.
    Virginia does not require people to lock up their guns. Only keep them out of the reach of children. And I would like it that way so I could have quick access to a loaded gun since I have no kids in my house.

    No, I do not work in public safety. But I feel that medics are not expected to enter a dangerous situation and can wait for the police. I have heard of the medics "staging" and waiting for police to show before they go in where it might be dangerous.

    I do not see the need to arm medics with firearms. I do not know of any community that is so bad that medics need to sneak up to the victim's door, guns drawn at the low ready, and give medical assistance. LOL

    My greatest fear is that our cops do not appear to get enough training, and now we would have medics with far less training deploying firearms!! Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are getting at. But we have to draw the line on duties. I would not want a cop cross trained to give me an IV for heat stroke since he does not do it every day. Same goes for a medic deploying a firearm and shooting at what he believes is a threat.

    If the community is that bad on a daily basis... it sounds like the medic unit needs to add a police swat team member!!

    So we can agree to disagree on this.
    Last edited by Mayhem; 11-12-2011 at 08:49 PM.

  22. #22
    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Virginia does not require people to lock up their guns. Only keep them out of the reach of children. And I would like it that way so I could have quick access to a loaded gun since I have no kids in my house.

    No, I do not work in public safety. But I feel that medics are not expected to enter a dangerous situation and can wait for the police. I have heard of the medics "staging" and waiting for police to show before they go in where it might be dangerous.

    I do not see the need to arm medics with firearms. I do not know of any community that is so bad that medics need to sneak up to the victim's door, guns drawn at the low ready, and give medical assistance. LOL

    My greatest fear is that our cops do not appear to get enough training, and now we would have medics with far less training deploying firearms!! Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are getting at. But we have to draw the line on duties. I would not want a cop cross trained to give me an IV for heat stroke since he does not do it every day. Same goes for a medic deploying a firearm and shooting at what he believes is a threat.

    If the community is that bad on a daily basis... it sounds like the medic unit needs to add a police swat team member!!

    So we can agree to disagree on this.
    Do you carry a firearm for your personal safety? If so why?
    A large number of times ambulance crews are dispatched to areas that are normally safe, for what seams to be a routine call.
    A while back a medic unit here was dispatched for a general illness call, on arrival the patient suddenly attacked one of the medics beating him severly and putting him out of work for some time. If the attacker had picked up a weapon the medic would have been killed.
    I just want to be allowed to do at work what I can do when I'm off. It would be no different than I have to do as far as knowing when I can and can't use my firearm when I'm off and on my own.

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    Virginia does not require people to lock up their guns. Only keep them out of the reach of children. And I would like it that way so I could have quick access to a loaded gun since I have no kids in my house.

    Better to teach the children gun safety. Would you not want "quick access" if there were children in the house?

    No, I do not work in public safety. But I feel that medics are not expected to enter a dangerous situation and can wait for the police. I have heard of the medics "staging" and waiting for police to show before they go in where it might be dangerous.

    What one "feels" is not relevant - the point is that situations can change in a heart beat.

    I do not see the need to arm medics with firearms. I do not know of any community that is so bad that medics need to sneak up to the victim's door, guns drawn at the low ready, and give medical assistance. LOL

    Over exaggeration is the tool of an anti. BTW - where is this mythical community that is so safe that people do NOT need the ability to defend themselves.

    My greatest fear is that our cops do not appear to get enough training, and now we would have medics with far less training deploying firearms!! Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are getting at. But we have to draw the line on duties. I would not want a cop cross trained to give me an IV for heat stroke since he does not do it every day. Same goes for a medic deploying a firearm and shooting at what he believes is a threat.

    Ah so - the truth comes out. Apparently you believe that only those with a certain mandated level of training have the right to self-defense and that they should only be trained in one discipline. Will you refuse first aid from a LEO?

    If the community is that bad on a daily basis... it sounds like the medic unit needs to add a police swat team member!!

    Again the mythical safe community. Doesn't have to happen on a daily basis - just once is too often, a 10 sec interval.

    So we can agree to disagree on this.
    My responses bolded in blue.

    Yep and I do disagree........ with the lack of logic.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf_shadow View Post
    Do you carry a firearm for your personal safety? If so why?
    A large number of times ambulance crews are dispatched to areas that are normally safe, for what seams to be a routine call.
    A while back a medic unit here was dispatched for a general illness call, on arrival the patient suddenly attacked one of the medics beating him severely and putting him out of work for some time. If the attacker had picked up a weapon the medic would have been killed.
    I just want to be allowed to do at work what I can do when I'm off. It would be no different than I have to do as far as knowing when I can and can't use my firearm when I'm off and on my own.
    I carry for self-protection because I do not have a police/fire/ems radio that can call a ton of cops who will run code 3 to get to me. I open carry in the summer months, CC in the winter months, and I do not get to carry at my job either.

    My problem with this whole EMS can carry is ANOTHER special class of citizens. It is bad enough that cops get to carry all over the place where the rest of us cannot. But now some want to grant EMS this same ability too. All under the facade that crap "could" happen while they are working.

    I have still not seen any statistic to show how often medics are killed or even injured to such a degree where a firearm could have prevented it. Maybe you should look into the use of a taser instead?

    If you want to tip the scales... show me some numbers to justify firearms and I will buy in 100%. But as it stands... medics do not appear to be in any more danger than any other job. As I said.. Taxi drivers should get first consideration for going to work armed.

    Medics have the option to wait for cops to clear up the scene before they go in to save lives. If a medic goes into a dangerous scene... it is no different than one of us who open carry walking into a fist fight happening. It is our own fault if we get punched in the face. But I will guess you will say something about medics have to go into danger. If so, please show me where they have been successfully sued for not doing so.

    The problem is that you want the ability to carry on the job and can make up anything you want to justify it. I need some hard proof to agree you need it over the rest of us citizens who cannot. Don't get me wrong... I wish we could all carry on the job. But what makes EMS better than the rest of us workers?



    "Much of what is known about taxi robbery is based on information recorded on assaults and homicides by occupation.† These data consistently show that, as an occupation or industry, taxi drivers have the highest or among the highest risk of job-related homicide and assault.1 Robbery is the motive for more than half of all work-related homicides (80 percent) and non-fatal assaults (60 percent).2 A U.S. study that did look at robbery victimization data by occupation also found that taxi drivers were among those most often robbed.

    Factors Contributing to Robbery of Taxi Drivers

    Taxi drivers are at risk of robbery due to a combination of factors related to the nature of their job:
    •They have contact with a large number of strangers or people they do not know well.
    •They often work in high-crime areas.
    •They usually carry cash with them in an unsecured manner and handle money as payment.
    •They usually work alone.
    •They often go to, or through, isolated locations.
    •They often work late at night or early in the morning.

    These risk factors, among others, have been mentioned in a number of studies of workplace homicide and violence in general"

    Source

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    ....snip....

    My problem with this whole EMS can carry is ANOTHER special class of citizens. It is bad enough that cops get to carry all over the place where the rest of us cannot. But now some want to grant EMS this same ability too. All under the facade that crap "could" happen while they are working.

    I have still not seen any statistic to show how often medics are killed or even injured to such a degree where a firearm could have prevented it.
    It would seem you want such restrictions/limitations on EMS personnel because there are some restrictions on others. Strange premise. Yep, we do carry for what might happen - explain please the fallacy of that.

    Since when are numbers, statistics relevant to the question? Would it be more justified if the figures demonstrated an immediate need? Why is not the personal right to self-defense enough? Surely it cannot be that this in not your right that is being questioned.

    At any given time, the odds are against needing such ability. It is for the benefit of the unusual and extreme need that any of us carry,
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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