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Thread: What Would You Do? Shoot? Run? 911? Wait & See? Etc...

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Question What Would You Do? Shoot? Run? 911? Wait & See? Etc...

    The last few days we have been posting about our training or lack of training depending on who is posting. Some have posted very aggressive comments about our training or lack of training. Well, this morning I read in the November 10, 2011 Shotgun News an article by Vin Suprynowicz titled "When Do You Intervene?". It's rather long and well thought out and I could not find it online but I did find something similar posted on the Shotgun News website linked below:

    http://www.shotgunnews.com/2011/09/2...-would-you-do/

    Snip: "Well-known trainer Gabe Suarez has a site called Warrior Talk and commented recently on the Sept. 6 shooting at an International House of Pancakes in Carson, City, Nev. If you recall the incident, a man with a record of mental illness shot 12 people, killing four, including three National Guardsmen.

    The owner of a barbecue restaurant across the street told the local media he had a pistol at hand, but thought better of putting it up against the killer’s AK-47. “You just can’t believe the amount of rounds coming out of that gun. There was no way that I was gonna go up and try to shoot him. He had too much firepower,” he said."

    The article linked above does NOT have as much information as Vin's printed article and one should read Vin's article to get the full Monty. One thing that is missing (I think) from the article linked here is that this guys AK-47 had been modified professionally to full automatic and he had 10 or 12 (can't remember) fully loaded AK magazines of 30 rounds each available that morning.

    My question for all of us is: What would you do in this situation based on where you are? Across the street watching VS In the IHOP and let's assume we are armed with our handguns.
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

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    The author of the article is right on. The guy did the right thing, protect yourself and your family. Based on the information presented, we have no idea what the bbq owner could/couldn't see, just that shots were ringing off. If a clear shot was present (guy standing on the street corner), sure, try and take him down, but how does he return fire across the street with a handgun? Now that I think about it, it's not much of a choice, stay safe, or die...

    I would do just what he did, maintain cover with all the defense I could muster until the cavalry came. No way he could go toe to toe with a lunatic and a full auto AK.
    Last edited by svelectric; 11-11-2011 at 05:03 PM.

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    Regular Member Grant Guess's Avatar
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    “You just can’t believe the amount of rounds coming out of that gun. There was no way that I was gonna go up and try to shoot him. He had too much firepower,” he said."
    Since I was not in that man's moccasins, it is hard to fault him.

    The only thing that one could reasonably do if you had a sudden jolt of testosterone is to close the distance to where the handgun is effective and do it in a manner that does not end up making you one of the victims.
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    Regular Member TyGuy's Avatar
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    I'll piggy back off of this and ask, Gabe Suarez good or bad? I've heard good things about him from LEOs, but I've read bad things about him online.

    Umm, I would have to think about what I would do. Being a husband and father my #1 priority is to get my family out safely. After that I would want to help, as I would hate to do nothing while all those people died. Perhaps wait for a mag change?

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    If I was the owner if that BBQ restaurant you can bet I'd have a lot more than a pistol handy. This is a job for a rifle.

    With only a pistol at hand, I think he did the right thing by him. Anything more would have either been heroic, or stupid; much dependant upon the outcome.
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    Regular Member TyGuy's Avatar
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    I'm not saying I would go back, as I'm no hero, but it would be hard to sit there and watch those people die if you had a chance to help them.

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Question So...What About Carrying A Long Arm In Our Vehicles?

    Quote Originally Posted by svelectric View Post
    The author of the article is right on. The guy did the right thing, protect yourself and your family. Based on the information presented, we have no idea what the bbq owner could/couldn't see, just that shots were ringing off. If a clear shot was present (guy standing on the street corner), sure, try and take him down, but how does he return fire across the street with a handgun? Now that I think about it, it's not much of a choice, stay safe, or die...

    I would do just what he did, maintain cover with all the defense I could muster until the cavalry came. No way he could go toe to toe with a lunatic and a full auto AK.
    There is a lot left out of the short article. The BBQ guy was across the street a good distance away...IIRC about 100 yards and the gunman shot a lot of bullets from that distance in the parking lot into a bunch of store fronts. Snip from Vin's article: "Across the parking lot, about 100 yards away.XXX...was standing in his restaurant....when they heard gunfire."

    If the BBQ guy had a scoped rifle would it have changed his actions?

    Some people I know have discussed carrying a long arm in their vehicles now that the laws have changed here in Wisconsin. I have pondered it myself but haven't decided yet.
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Sit, stay put, and hope the threat did not come my way.... If it did, well then, as I have actually quoted Gabe Suarez in my sig... just read line 3....

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    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 11-11-2011 at 05:24 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Lightbulb It Is A Tough Choice....It All Started In The Parking Lot...Not In IHOP...

    Quote Originally Posted by TyGuy View Post
    I'll piggy back off of this and ask, Gabe Suarez good or bad? I've heard good things about him from LEOs, but I've read bad things about him online.

    Umm, I would have to think about what I would do. Being a husband and father my #1 priority is to get my family out safely. After that I would want to help, as I would hate to do nothing while all those people died. Perhaps wait for a mag change?
    Too bad I cannot quote the printed article. It is much more informative and goes into quite a bit of detail...what the people did INSIDE IHOP VS people in the parking lot and in the BBQ restaurant. The gunman got out of his minivan and shot the first person he saw which was a woman standing next to a motorcycle. That is how it started...not IN IHOP.

    If you were in IHOP when this started OUTSIDE...that should perk anyone's ears and put them in Condition RED.
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyGuy View Post
    I'm not saying I would go back, as I'm no hero, but it would be hard to sit there and watch those people die if you had a chance to help them.
    My comment wasn't aimed at you or anything. In fact I didn't see your post until after I posted. I agree it would be hard to sit there and take it.

    Yes, like I implied, a rifle would make a huge difference. 100 yards, no problem. As long as a safe shot could be made I think I'd take it.

    The odds of getting hit by spray and pray at 100 yards are pretty slim.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 11-11-2011 at 05:27 PM.
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    Regular Member TyGuy's Avatar
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    I didn't think that it was aimed at me. No worries.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    To add to the confusion, you are across the street see the bullets flying and the BG comes OUT of the restaurant, stops and looks around. You have cover, a support for your aim (bumper) and your firearm is in your hand. Do you shoot him? After all he killed a bunch of people incl. National Guard and he's getting away.

    Alternately, do you follow him, film him, try to get a license number, or stay out of it?
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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    either stay out of it or try to get a license number....

    But, say if all this was happening and all of a sudden a UFO came out of no where and laned in the midle of the street, and about 3 or 4 green aliens came out butt naked with their ray guns, well then what...????

    Just Sayin....

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    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 11-11-2011 at 05:39 PM.
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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    I post without reading anyone elses response.

    I assume that such a person would have tunnel vision with whatever goal he had and could not excercise good situtational awareness which would lend a bit of a tactical advantage to close the distance.

    IF I could I would cross the street and find cover. IF I could I would get within handgun range under cover. IF I had an opportunity to make a good shot with Viridian Laser Sights, I would take it. The need to save and protect innocent people would override the fear of dying. But I will not commit suicide by being reckless.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    The odds of saving the life of another must be greater than those of loosing my own life in order for me to put myself in harm's way in such a situation.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 11-11-2011 at 05:58 PM.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    If I was the owner if that BBQ restaurant you can bet I'd have a lot more than a pistol handy. This is a job for a rifle.
    I like the way you think. Seriously, why wouldn't we take the same approach at our business that we would with home defense. Tactically, the shotgun will serve most situations, but you never know if you would ever be outgunned and pinned down. Statistically probably never happen, but like they say, it is better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    I didn't know much about Gabe Suarez before this except that he was known to many. If he was criticizing this man, then that is all I need to know about him.

    Was any criticism launched at the UNARMED people who were much better positioned to actually do something?

    Brass Magnet is dead on. The sidearm is for your side and is for close, personal defense. ALWAYS have a long gun available in the home, vehicle, and business.
    Last edited by MAC702; 11-11-2011 at 06:06 PM.
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    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    The odds of saving the life of another must be greater than those of loosing my own life in order for me to put myself in harm's way in such a situation.
    Lebanese financier Nassim Nicholas Taleb's Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable.

    http://www.amazon.com/Black-Swan-Imp...1052668&sr=8-1 #1000 in 'books', #24 in 'management', #18 in 'philosophy'

    Taleb has lost more money than I will ever see. He would point out the Ludic Fallacy in your hypothetical. Life is not a game and its odds are unknowable.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 11-11-2011 at 06:14 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyGuy View Post
    I'm not saying I would go back, as I'm no hero, but it would be hard to sit there and watch those people die if you had a chance to help them.
    Out of all those people in the IHOP NO ONE was carrying? Not to be an *******, but this **** seems to happen ALL THE TIME now-a-days. If you're out in public at a restaurant, walking downtown, whatever and you're not carrying then it's your problem. Every time I step outside my home to go for a walk or take the family out for dinner I stay strapped. Why? Because I am expecting crime to happen. I am expecting an active shooter scenario to happen. I'm not paranoid, I'm prepared. Every type of place I've been to has been a crime scene. Now I don't mean the exact geographic location, but what I mean is when I go to church, IHOP, the mall, a walk down town, etc. Places just like this are where crime happens.

    To get back to the point of what I am trying to say- it would appear that no one in this IHOP was armed. While it was indeed the shooter's 'fault' that this terrible event happened, it is important to note that all of these people decided to go out that day with out the means to protect themselves and their families from the inevitable crime that happens day in and day out in this world.


    With that said, my heart goes out to the troops in uniform who were killed. I'm don't know personally if they were the type to carry 24/7 when off duty, but I do know that being they were in uniform they were most likely on their way to or from work. Work which takes place on a military installation. I also know first hand that carrying on military installations is prohibited even in your vehicle. (Perhaps there are exceptions out there, but I have been to plenty of military bases and I know of none that let you keep your gun in your car when you're at work. Also see US CODE TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 930) So, even if these young troops were the carrying type, their government and ranking officers made it illegal for them to possess a gun to and from work which made their stop at IHOP fatal.

    When I go out to lunch with my friends during the duty day I feel like I am naked. I simply can't make a trip to the house, to a restaurant, and back to the house, then back to work. So in the name of 'lunch' I take the same risk these individuals took. Shame on our legislators and anyone else who helps institute these outrageous rules and laws.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
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    There was no one carrying in this place, because IHOP is a victim enhancement zone. To make it worse, they learned nothing from this event and are still posted to this day.
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    ..Taleb has lost more money than I will ever see. He would point out the Ludic Fallacy in your hypothetical. Life is not a game and its odds are unknowable.
    I feel pity for Agnostics...

    A man should not have to know without uncertainty before taking action while lives are in the balance...

    The capacity of man himself is only revealed when, under stress and responsibility, he breaks through his educational shell, and he may then be a splendid surprise to himself no less than to this teachers.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    With that said, my heart goes out to the troops in uniform who were killed. I'm don't know personally if they were the type to carry 24/7 when off duty, but I do know that being they were in uniform they were most likely on their way to or from work. Work which takes place on a military installation. I also know first hand that carrying on military installations is prohibited even in your vehicle. (Perhaps there are exceptions out there, but I have been to plenty of military bases and I know of none that let you keep your gun in your car when you're at work. Also see US CODE TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 930) So, even if these young troops were the carrying type, their government and ranking officers made it illegal for them to possess a gun to and from work which made their stop at IHOP fatal.
    I am struggling how to say this without cussing. Our country sends them into war either to defend and preserve our freedom (or oil dependence) and then strips them of their right to defend themselves. That is purely assinine.

  23. #23
    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    OK, I'm going to throw out a lot of ifs here...

    IF I knew he would still be a danger after his attack and

    IF I could safely (behind cover) get within 50 yards of the entrance to ambush him and

    IF I could have my pistol on a rest and

    IF I thought I could get a safe shot (safe behind the target) and

    IF I could identify the shoot before he walks out (I don't want to shoot someone that subdued him and then took his weapon) and

    IF I thought I could stop him before he had time to realize I was even there (basically: can I tell whether or not he's wearing body armor. I'm confident I could make a center mass shot at 50 yards, but not so confident about a head shot)...

    I might think about going across the street and taking this guy out. I mean, I'm not the kind to say that we need to go vigilante and use our permits as police badges. But this was an obviously very dangerous situation-I'm not going to mistake full auto AK fire for a self defense situation or anything else, this guy was obviously out for blood. And how am I supposed to know he's not going to come across the street and shoot up my place?

    I would definitely feel my life is in danger and want to stop the threat while I still have the upper hand (I can't remember about NC, but we have no duty to retreat in TN). This is one of those situations where you'll have to live with whatever decision you make for the rest of your life. After this guy walks out of the building, he shoots some chick in the head trying to get away on a motorcycle. Granted, she didn't die (miraculously), but if I knew I could have prevented more deaths outside of the building and didn't, it would be hard for me to live with that decision.

    I know to not go looking for or running towards danger. But in this situation I haven't found danger, danger has found me and it's right across the street. I have no duty to retreat (not in TN and not in AZ) and I'm not storming into the building, but I would feel my life is in danger with a crazed gunman in a building across the street. Putting myself in a safe position and shooting to stop the threat seems like a reasonable course of action to me.

    A couple more things: I'd have someone else call 911 or do it myself before hand if I'm alone. Also, if this guy had a pistol, it would change things greatly. On the one hand, I wouldn't feel so out-gunned and have an easier time facing him off. But at the same time, a pistol doesn't have the reach his rifle does, so I don't think I'd feel like I was in as much danger across the street. That may cause me to want to stay where I'm at and wait for the cavalry, protecting myself if he came towards me.

    Honestly, I think the decision is easier knowing this guy had a full auto rifle, capable of firing across the street and down near the next neighborhood. Across the street I'm in the kill zone. With a pistol, not so much.
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    Regular Member RR_Broccoli's Avatar
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    "Be a good witness" comes to mind. I am not going to fault anyone for not going up against an AK platform rifle with a pistol. It's so obvious, it seems to me like a waste of article space. Talk about the situations where there isn't an obvious answer and the discussion is more interesting.

    Those people walked into IHOP knowing there wouldn't be any concealed carriers there legally. They know what they signed up for, and presumably knew small difference in the risks and thought the risk of attack was smaller than the risk of a concealed carrier... well, dunno what additional risk that would be aside from the risk REDUCTION of a little protection from a law abiding citizen.

    IF I didn't think IHOP sucked already, having a "easy victim zone" probably would deter me from visiting them.
    "I can only be held responsible for my own stupidity." - Captain Nemo

  25. #25
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    This is a tough one. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. If the BG comes out of IHOP and you start popping off rounds at him, he is liable to go back in and kill some more. I think that without a fair chance of hitting him (and not a bystander) I'd hold off until I thought firing wouldn't send him back in. Without a long gun your options are limited (as Leo found out in Oakland a few years ago).
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