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Thread: VSP website has incorrect information! "A Permit is Not Necessary..."

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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    VSP website has incorrect information! "A Permit is Not Necessary..."

    Anybody see anything wrong with the below information? Hmmm? I can think of something pertinent that could go on this list. Can you???

    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_...FollowingCircu

    A Permit is Not Necessary in the Following Circumstances:

    Any person while in his own place of abode or the curtilage thereof.
    • Any person while in his own place of business;
    • Any law-enforcement officer, wherever such law-enforcement officer may travel in the Commonwealth;
    • Any regularly enrolled member of a target shooting organization who is at, or going to or from, an established shooting range, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
    • Any regularly enrolled member of a weapons collecting organization who is at, or going to or from, a bona fide weapons exhibition, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
    • Any person carrying such weapons between his place of abode and a place of purchase or repair, provided the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
    • Any person actually engaged in lawful hunting, as authorized by the Board of Game and Inland Fisheries, under inclement weather conditions necessitating temporary protection of his firearm from those conditions. Possession of a handgun while engaged in lawful hunting shall not be construed as hunting with a handgun if the person hunting is carrying a valid concealed handgun permit;
    • Any retiree described in paragraph B 7 of 18.2-308.
    • For purposes of applying the reciprocity provisions of subsection P, any person granted the privilege to carry a concealed handgun pursuant to this subdivision, while carrying the proof of consultation and favorable review required, shall be deemed to have been issued a concealed handgun permit.
    • Any attorney for the Commonwealth or assistant attorney for the Commonwealth, wherever such attorney may travel in the Common-wealth.
    • Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel.
    I sent them an email asking if the missing info could be footnoted. Have you spotted the omission yet???
    Last edited by paramedic70002; 11-11-2011 at 09:17 PM.
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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Anybody see anything wrong with the below information? Hmmm? I can think of something pertinent that could go on this list. Can you???

    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_...FollowingCircu

    A Permit is Not Necessary in the Following Circumstances:

    I sent them an email asking if the missing info could be footnoted. Have you spotted the omission yet???

    Good luck in adding any person who may lawfully posses a handgun and is carrying for self-defense where it is not against the law to have or posses a handgun. Never happen because this is the section relating only to the carrying of a concealed handgun.
    Last edited by nuc65; 11-11-2011 at 09:53 PM.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I suppose you might be referring to Open Carry... but since the entire web page is about Concealed Carry, there isn't really any reason such a notation would belong there.

    I wouldn't be upset if they did make a note about it, but since the law is silent on the issue, and they aren't in the position to give legal advice, what exactly would you have them say?

    TFred

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    Regular Member Mayhem's Avatar
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    Resident Concealed Handgun Permits

    @paramedic70002

    It seems that you have only posted part of the website that explains what the circumstances are for. What you referring to is in regards to concealed carry and not when we open carry. Virginia is a state that does not have permits for gun ownership.

    It does appear that they forgot to add a number bullet next to the first exemption so I added a zero.


    Resident Concealed Handgun Permits

    Virginia Resident Concealed Handgun Permits are issued by the circuit court of the county or city in which the applicant resides. Please contact the applicable court for specific instruction on the application process.

    Virginia Code Section 18.2-308 - Prohibits the carrying of any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or any weapon of like kind by any person hidden from common observance about his person. Any of the enumerated weapons shall be seized and forfeited to the Commonwealth. A weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.




    A Permit is Not Necessary in the Following Circumstances:


    0.Any person while in his own place of abode or the curtilage thereof.
    1.Any person while in his own place of business;
    2.Any law-enforcement officer, wherever such law-enforcement officer may travel in the Commonwealth;
    3.Any regularly enrolled member of a target shooting organization who is at, or going to or from, an established shooting range, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
    4.Any regularly enrolled member of a weapons collecting organization who is at, or going to or from, a bona fide weapons exhibition, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
    5.Any person carrying such weapons between his place of abode and a place of purchase or repair, provided the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
    6.Any person actually engaged in lawful hunting, as authorized by the Board of Game and Inland Fisheries, under inclement weather conditions necessitating temporary protection of his firearm from those conditions. Possession of a handgun while engaged in lawful hunting shall not be construed as hunting with a handgun if the person hunting is carrying a valid concealed handgun permit;
    7.Any retiree described in paragraph B 7 of 18.2-308.
    8.For purposes of applying the reciprocity provisions of subsection P, any person granted the privilege to carry a concealed handgun pursuant to this subdivision, while carrying the proof of consultation and favorable review required, shall be deemed to have been issued a concealed handgun permit.
    9. Any attorney for the Commonwealth or assistant attorney for the Commonwealth, wherever such attorney may travel in the Common-wealth.
    10.Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The title of the page is Resident Concealed Handgun Permits

    That says it all. Everything on that page falls under that heading.
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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Yes it is a CHP page but taken out of context, which is not at all out of the question, it seems to say that there is no open carry in Virginia. i would expect that the VSP would note that OC is legal without a permit.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    i would expect that the VSP would note that OC is legal without a permit.
    me too
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
    - - - -
    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Yes it is a CHP page but taken out of context, which is not at all out of the question, it seems to say that there is no open carry in Virginia. i would expect that the VSP would note that OC is legal without a permit.
    As I alluded to in my earlier post, does that not constitute legal advice? I didn't read the page with a fine tooth comb, but it appears that everything they have published is straight out of the Code of Virginia. No interpretation = Safe and legal. If they were to make a statement of opinion (and without a direct quote to the Code, how can it be anything else?) how is that not legal advice, which they are not qualified, or allowed, to provide?

    Now... having said that, I can't ignore the fact that "we" say it here all the time... it is fairly obvious to those of us who have been here long enough to understand the context... but you have to understand the construct of the law (only that which is illegal is codified) so perhaps it's just too complicated to safely state in one simple sentence that "OC is legal in Virginia." That one sentence is not actually true, because you have to qualify it with such things as "If you are not otherwise prohibited from possessing a gun", and "If you are not carrying in a place that is otherwise off limits, or that is prohibited by the property owner". Where do you stop? How do you know you have included "enough" disclaimers to make a newbie understand the entire set of circumstances under which it is legal to OC? Would you want to be the person responsible for ensuring that what was published was adequate? I would not.

    Just some thoughts. I'm sure User would have a much better opinion.

    TFred

    ETA: Perhaps they could add a short statement that "The open carry of firearms is not generally prohibited in the state of Virginia." But... is that legal advice? Who can say?
    Last edited by TFred; 11-12-2011 at 03:27 PM.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    As I alluded to in my earlier post, does that not constitute legal advice? I didn't read the page with a fine tooth comb, but it appears that everything they have published is straight out of the Code of Virginia. No interpretation = Safe and legal. If they were to make a statement of opinion (and without a direct quote to the Code, how can it be anything else?) how is that not legal advice, which they are not qualified, or allowed, to provide?

    Now... having said that, I can't ignore the fact that "we" say it here all the time... it is fairly obvious to those of us who have been here long enough to understand the context... but you have to understand the construct of the law (only that which is illegal is codified) so perhaps it's just too complicated to safely state in one simple sentence that "OC is legal in Virginia." That one sentence is not actually true, because you have to qualify it with such things as "If you are not otherwise prohibited from possessing a gun", and "If you are not carrying in a place that is otherwise off limits, or that is prohibited by the property owner". Where do you stop? How do you know you have included "enough" disclaimers to make a newbie understand the entire set of circumstances under which it is legal to OC? Would you want to be the person responsible for ensuring that what was published was adequate? I would not.

    Just some thoughts. I'm sure User would have a much better opinion.

    TFred

    ETA: Perhaps they could add a short statement that "The open carry of firearms is not generally prohibited in the state of Virginia." But... is that legal advice? Who can say?
    I think you are right about the VSP refraining from the appearance of giving legal advice. But a simple statement like "Only handguns may be carried concealed in Virginia with a valid permit. Otherwise no permit is necessary. Certain restrictions may apply." might pass muster.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Yes it is a CHP page but taken out of context, which is not at all out of the question, it seems to say that there is no open carry in Virginia. i would expect that the VSP would note that OC is legal without a permit.
    They do say that, just on a different page:

    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_Transporting.shtm

    Virginia does not require firearm registration nor is it necessary to obtain a permit before carrying a firearm or other such weapon openly about the person except where prohibited by statute.
    Then it says:

    As of July 1, 2010, a concealed handgun permit is not necessary when carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel.

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    Regular Member Mayhem's Avatar
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    State Police Legal Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Yes it is a CHP page but taken out of context, which is not at all out of the question, it seems to say that there is no open carry in Virginia. i would expect that the VSP would note that OC is legal without a permit.
    Why would the state police need to post what is NOT against the law? This list would be endless. Car you can buy, driving between the lines, starting your car with your foot on the brake, breathing exhaust fumes... LOL

    I can see a potential problem with them posting "The open carry of firearms is legal in Virginia" because then they need to add a HUGE disclaimer... "But not where prohibited by state law." So now we need to tell people where they are permitted or we have to tell them all the locations that are off limits. And if they fail to identify all locations... we can hold the state police responsible because the "state" failed to tell me I could not do it.. "there".

    Perhaps it would be a best fit in a firearms Q & A section.

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