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Thread: Open Carry and Concealed

  1. #1
    Regular Member Snake161's Avatar
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    Open Carry and Concealed

    So, there are a number of questions that I have been meaning to have answered for some time now.

    I browsed the DOJ FAQ and found no answers to my quandaries.


    1) With or without CC permit, can open carry on UW system campus' grounds, while not entering any buildings?

    2) Can I open carry in my vehicle now with a CC permit?

    3) I hear that school proximity restrictions have been loosened, is the is true?

    4) Open carry has basically remained the same, and having a CC permit actually inflects your ability's and options while open carrying, correct?

    5) And last but not least, I am under the understanding that an establishment, organization etc, when putting up a sign dictating no firearms or knives allowed, is now taking your safety into there hands. In other words, are they now liable for your well being if anything happens to you on there premises? Or is entering an omission on your part?

    Just a few questions I've had bouncing around for a while and haven't had them answered. Thank you for you time everybody.

  2. #2
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snake161 View Post
    So, there are a number of questions that I have been meaning to have answered for some time now.

    I browsed the DOJ FAQ and found no answers to my quandaries.


    1) With or without CC permit, can open carry on UW system campus' grounds, while not entering any buildings?

    2) Can I open carry in my vehicle now with a CC permit?

    3) I hear that school proximity restrictions have been loosened, is the is true?

    4) Open carry has basically remained the same, and having a CC permit actually inflects your ability's and options while open carrying, correct?

    5) And last but not least, I am under the understanding that an establishment, organization etc, when putting up a sign dictating no firearms or knives allowed, is now taking your safety into there hands. In other words, are they now liable for your well being if anything happens to you on there premises? Or is entering an omission on your part?

    Just a few questions I've had bouncing around for a while and haven't had them answered. Thank you for you time everybody.
    2 Yes.

    3 Yes. With a license, the 1000' zone goes away. Still cannot be on school grounds itself.

    4 Yes

    5 Technically no. They do not enjoy additional immunity, they don't get additional liability. In my non lawyer mind, 2 sides of the same coin, however, I have been told there is a difference.

  3. #3
    Regular Member TyGuy's Avatar
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    So with license you can cc within 1,000ft of a school?

    Can you OC wihtin 1,00ft of a school with a license (license not officially neede)?

    Can you OC within 1,000ft of a school without a license?

  4. #4
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyGuy View Post
    So with license you can cc within 1,000ft of a school?

    Can you OC wihtin 1,00ft of a school with a license (license not officially neede)?

    Can you OC within 1,000ft of a school without a license?
    With a license you can OC or CC but not on school grounds.

    Without a license, the same old restrictions still apply: No carry within 1000' of school grounds unless unloaded and encased, or unless on private property.
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyGuy View Post
    So with license you can cc within 1,000ft of a school?

    Can you OC wihtin 1,00ft of a school with a license (license not officially neede)?

    Can you OC within 1,000ft of a school without a license?
    A WI Carry license allows you to carry concealed but does not force you to carry concealed. Anywhere you may carry concealed, you may carry openly.
    WI Law prohibits you from possessing a firearm within 1000' of school grounds unless the firearm is unloaded and cased (or locked in a firearm rack on a motor vehicle) An exception is if the firearm is a handgun and you have a WI carry license. You may still not carry on the grounds or in the school with a carry license unless you meet one of the other exceptions listed in the statute.
    Another exception is on private property.
    To answer your question, you may OC within a GFSZ with a license but may not OC within a GFSZ without a license. The license IS "officially" needed to Open Carry within 1000' of school grounds.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snake161 View Post
    So, there are a number of questions that I have been meaning to have answered for some time now.

    I browsed the DOJ FAQ and found no answers to my quandaries.


    1) With or without CC permit, can open carry on UW system campus' grounds, while not entering any buildings?

    2) Can I open carry in my vehicle now with a CC permit?

    3) I hear that school proximity restrictions have been loosened, is the is true?

    4) Open carry has basically remained the same, and having a CC permit actually inflects your ability's and options while open carrying, correct?

    5) And last but not least, I am under the understanding that an establishment, organization etc, when putting up a sign dictating no firearms or knives allowed, is now taking your safety into there hands. In other words, are they now liable for your well being if anything happens to you on there premises? Or is entering an omission on your part?

    Just a few questions I've had bouncing around for a while and haven't had them answered. Thank you for you time everybody.
    Noone directly answered question #1. With a CWL, you can OC anywhere you can CC. However, UW-Madison says that per Adminisrative Rule, Open Carry is illegal on campus. So, if you choose to OC on any UW campus, be prepared to be cited. 66.0409 does not apply to UW or Technical College Systems because they are not "political subdivisions", rather the are quasi state agencies.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 11-12-2011 at 10:25 PM.

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    Regular Member Snake161's Avatar
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    Thank you everybody for the replies. That helps to clarify things a trite.

    One last question however; do I still enjoy the right to no be forced to show my ID when Open carrying? Because, to be honest, I love open carrying and have been for over three years now. Concealed is desirable depending on situations and for the winter time.

    Thanks again everybody

  8. #8
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snake161 View Post
    ...do I still enjoy the right to no be forced to show my ID when Open carrying?
    175.60(2g)(c) suggests that while openly armed you should not be forced to relinquish your papers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wisc. Stats. 175.60(2g)(c)
    Unless the licensee ... is carrying a concealed weapon in a manner described under s. 941.23 (2) (e) [homeowner or businessman], a licensee who is carrying a concealed weapon shall display his or her license document and photographic identification card ... to a law enforcement officer upon the request of the law enforcement officer while the law enforcement officer is acting in an official capacity and with lawful authority.
    The basic Fourth and Fifth Amendment protections of privacy and against self-incrimination is embodied in Wisconsin Statutes 968.24
    Quote Originally Posted by Wisc. Stats. 968.24
    Temporary questioning without arrest. After having identified himself or herself as a law enforcement officer, a law enforcement officer may stop a person in a public place for a reasonable period of time when the officer reasonably suspects that such person is committing, is about to commit or has committed a crime, and may demand the name and address of the person and an explanation of the person’s conduct. Such detention and temporary questioning shall be conducted in the vicinity where the person was stopped.
    The conflicting tensions will have to be resolved with a test case.

    Hypothetically, an enforcer could demand of every passerby their CWL and DL and, when refused, detain the passerby to establish that either he was not armed or had a CWL when found armed. RAS/PC, here, is of the crime of concealment, and is between the state and the judge after the fact of a non-consensual detention. "You can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride." As KS has shown us, Wisconsin enforcers are not above extra-legal harassment.

    ETA: Continuing the hypothetical.

    Judge: Officer, did you see a weapon?

    Officer: No, but I suspected that the subject had hidden it on my approach, so I requested his CWL and ID.

    Judge: When Mr. Citizen refused to identify himself, then you detained him and did a Terry pat-down, correct?

    Officer: Oh, yes, your Honor! And then the subject was transported, to be held while his identity was established.

    Judge: Was Mr. Citizen armed?

    Officer: No. <<But I bet he enjoyed his ride!>>
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 11-19-2011 at 05:59 PM.

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snake161 View Post
    So, there are a number of questions that I have been meaning to have answered for some time now.

    I browsed the DOJ FAQ and found no answers to my quandaries.


    1) With or without CC permit, can open carry on UW system campus' grounds, while not entering any buildings?

    2) Can I open carry in my vehicle now with a CC permit?

    3) I hear that school proximity restrictions have been loosened, is the is true?

    4) Open carry has basically remained the same, and having a CC permit actually inflects your ability's and options while open carrying, correct?

    5) And last but not least, I am under the understanding that an establishment, organization etc, when putting up a sign dictating no firearms or knives allowed, is now taking your safety into there hands. In other words, are they now liable for your well being if anything happens to you on there premises? Or is entering an omission on your part?

    Just a few questions I've had bouncing around for a while and haven't had them answered. Thank you for you time everybody.
    You do realize that the 1000 foot school zone cr$% has never applied to schools of higher education, only K-12????

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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    You do realize that the 1000 foot school zone cr$% has never applied to schools of higher education, only K-12????

    Common mistake...one I've made myself...it's 1-12, not K-12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snake161 View Post
    So, there are a number of questions that I have been meaning to have answered for some time now.

    I browsed the DOJ FAQ and found no answers to my quandaries.


    1) With or without CC permit, can open carry on UW system campus' grounds, while not entering any buildings?

    2) Can I open carry in my vehicle now with a CC permit?

    3) I hear that school proximity restrictions have been loosened, is the is true?

    4) Open carry has basically remained the same, and having a CC permit actually inflects your ability's and options while open carrying, correct?

    5) And last but not least, I am under the understanding that an establishment, organization etc, when putting up a sign dictating no firearms or knives allowed, is now taking your safety into there hands. In other words, are they now liable for your well being if anything happens to you on there premises? Or is entering an omission on your part?

    Just a few questions I've had bouncing around for a while and haven't had them answered. Thank you for you time everybody.
    1. Not really. As Sproket said, UW has declared that you can not OC on campus, only conceal. If you CC on campus at UW-Milwaukee without a permit, you're screwed because there is an elementary school on the campus. You're definitely within the 1000 feet.

    2. Sure! The question you need to be asking is: "What is classified as OC in a vehicle" I'm sure you've heard about MKEgal's episode recently.

    3. Nope, still 1000 feet

    4. Now if your coat or sweatshirt falls across your weapon and shields it from view, you can't get nailed with a CC violation. As someone else pointed out before, what if you approach on my weak side. My body is concealing it..........

    5. If something happens, they are liable because they forced you to disarm at the door. So, if you get out alive, you can join the class action suit against the business. Then again, according to WAVE, criminals will see the signs and turn around. That way everyone can sit around the campfire and sing songs
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  12. #12
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snake161
    do I still enjoy the right to no be forced to show my ID when Open carrying?
    If you are in a place where it's only legal for licensees to carry, you have to show license & ID if the officer is acting with lawful authority & demands to see them, whether you're OC or cc.

    Otherwise, when OC there's no requirement to even have the license or ID on you, so how could you be required to show them?
    Ditto for cc on your property or business.
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    good post to help clear up some things ..

    im still not entirely comfortable with the open carry aspect of the law .. i expect to open carry 25-50% of the time .. as long as im fine with my CCW License open carrying to i am happy ... not talking school zones

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaurusToter View Post
    1. Not really. As Sproket said, UW has declared that you can not OC on campus, only conceal. If you CC on campus at UW-Milwaukee without a permit, you're screwed because there is an elementary school on the campus. You're definitely within the 1000 feet.
    You're also in violation of 941.23

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    If you are in a place where it's only legal for licensees to carry, you have to show license & ID if the officer is acting with lawful authority & demands to see them, whether you're OC or cc.

    Otherwise, when OC there's no requirement to even have the license or ID on you, so how could you be required to show them?
    Ditto for cc on your property or business.
    This is an interesting question. The DOJ FAQ and the statutes themselves, don't totally agree. Although there are a number of situations, where only a WI/OS (Wisconsin or Out-of-state) licensee is allowed to carry a handgun, as has been pointed out before, in any of those situations, the licensee has the CHOICE to carry open or concealed.

    However, the statutes below, only require the licensee to have it with them OR display it after proper request, when carrying a concealed weapon! There is one exception to that, see the NOTE

    175.60 License to carry a concealed weapon.
    ...
    (2g) Carrying a concealed weapon; possession and display of license document or authorization.
    (a) A licensee or an out-of-state licensee may carry a concealed weapon anywhere in this state except as provided under subs. (15m) and (16) and ss. 943.13 (1m) (c) and 948.605 (2) (b) 1r.

    (b) Unless the licensee or out-of-state licensee is carrying a concealed weapon in a manner described under s. 941.23 (2) (e), a licensee shall have with him or her his or her license document and photographic identification card and an out-of-state licensee shall have with him or her his or her out-of-state license and photographic identification card at all times during which he or she is carrying a concealed weapon.

    (c) Unless the licensee or out-of-state licensee is carrying a concealed weapon in a manner described under s. 941.23 (2) (e), a licensee who is carrying a concealed weapon shall display his or her license document and photographic identification card and an out-of-state licensee who is carrying a concealed weapon shall display his or her out-of-state license and photographic identification card to a law enforcement officer upon the request of the law enforcement officer while the law enforcement officer is acting in an official capacity and with lawful authority.
    You can see that the penalty subsection (17) of this statute, below, refers to the two (2g)(b) and (2g)(c) paragraphs above.

    175.60(17) Penalties.
    (a) Any person who violates sub. (2g) (b) or (c) may be required to forfeit not more than $25, except that the person shall be exempted from the forfeiture if the person presents, within 48 hours, his or her license document or out-of-state license and photographic identification to the law enforcement agency that employs the requesting law enforcement officer.
    ...

    NOTE: the "Unless the licensee..." exceptions above refer to
    941.23(2)(e) An individual who carries a concealed and dangerous weapon, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (j), in his or her own dwelling or place of business or on land that he or she owns, leases, or legally occupies.
    these exceptions recognize the one situation where you can legally carry concealed and NOT be a WI/OS licensee.

    ------------------

    Basically, in Wisconsin, when you are carrying concealed, and in a situation where you are required to be a WI/OS licensee, then you are required to have the permit/license and photo id with you, and, if properly requested, display it.
    Last edited by E6chevron; 11-20-2011 at 07:55 PM.
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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    With a license you can OC or CC but not on school grounds.

    Without a license, the same old restrictions still apply: No carry within 1000' of school grounds unless unloaded and encased, or unless on private property.
    Plus it is no longer a felony in WI to carry withing a school zone, only a forfeiture. Now, it is still a federal felony (1-12).
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Plus it is no longer a felony in WI to carry withing a school zone, only a forfeiture. Now, it is still a federal felony (1-12).
    I just did a post involving the school grounds & school zone. http://forum.opencarry.org./forums/s...=1#post1653219

    If you look at 948.605(2)(a) in this post, you will see that illegal possession on the school grounds is a Class I felony. In the area from 0 to 1000 ft. from the school grounds, illegal possession is a Class B forfeiture.

    948.605(1) "School zone" means any of the following:
    1. In or on the grounds of a school.
    2. Within 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school.
    As far as the Federal GFSZ code, it is similar to 948.605, with the most significant difference, being that the federal code allows individuals licensed and background checked, to possess firearms anywhere in the school zone. 948.605 allows licensees possession in the school zone 0-1000 ft. outside the school grounds. Further, 948.605 provides in/on school grounds, all firearms need to be unloaded and cased or locked in a rack. 18USC922(q)(B)(i) allows possession on any private property, not part of school grounds, in the school zone, 948.605 refers to that same sub-paragraph in 18USC922.

    18 USC 922 (q)

    __(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    __(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
    ___(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    ___(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    ___(iii) that is—
    ____(I) not loaded; and
    ____(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
    Last edited by E6chevron; 11-20-2011 at 10:18 PM.
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