Draw time questions OC & CC...

I'm in Oregon, I got my CHL permit, not to CC but to avoid some cities unloaded OC regulations.
Also have been reading about California (pre upcoming ban) & other states that have unloaded OC requirements.
Combined with with Tueller Drill statistics about draw time vs BG coming at you with a knife made me think...

Ignoring how you got to the point of confrontation:

1. Loaded OC allows draw & fire while allowing you to use your off hand/arm to block or defend against the knife strike (better to take the hit on your off arm and not your body/neck/head).
2. Loaded CC requires you to spend a little more time to clear the weapon and may require use of your off hand so you can't block incoming knife.
3. Unloaded OC requires even more time to draw, use off hand for magazine, insert, work slide before you can fire, again this requires use of your off hand so you can't block incoming knife.

First question:

Have there been any studies like Tueller (loaded OC) for CC or unloaded OC?

If Tueller estimates 1.5-2 sec to draw and fire, and a BG can cover 21 ft in that time. What would the "danger zone" be for CC or unloaded OC?
"He was 45 ft away with a knife, he's no threat, you should not have fired." (prosecutor)
"Your state / city law requires unloaded carry, time to load and protect myself is now 5 seconds instead of 2 when loaded carry, which is a 53 ft danger zone." (defendant)

Second question:

What about elderly or handicapped?

If state or city requires unloaded OC/CC what about people who could defend themselves with a loaded weapon, but it takes them extra time to load?
1. Arthritis: can shoot fine, but requires much more time at home to load.
2. Bad or missing hand/arm: again, can shoot fine with other hand, but requires much more time or assistance to load at home.
3. Really any reason that makes a person slower on the loading of a weapon when there are no issues with its use (loaded) in a situation.

I have never seen any exceptions written into any state laws (admittedly, just from reading forums, and reading a few state regulations) that would allow "differently-abled" (PC) to carry loaded when unloaded is the law. Would / could changes be pushed under Americans with Disabilities Act"? But what if you don't have an official disability?

Again this is assuming that you can handle a loaded weapon well enough to defend yourself, but would have issues with loading the weapon in a situation.

Side thought... could the city or state be sued if a person is severely hurt but survives (or sued by family if the person dies) if it can be shown that they most likely could have prevented the death/damage by drawing in 2 seconds a loaded weapon in defense, but due to the unloaded requirements of the city or state it took too long to load and therefore the city/state restricted their 2A rights of self defense and the city/state is responsible for their damage or death?

Thoughts?

Good Luck!

The CC proponents who think it is in their purview to monitor OC activities as they feel it may affect their prima donna CC ability will now chime in and tell you fantastic stories not based in any tactical sense whatsoever, about how their method of carry is optimal.

In short: Your observations are correct, and mechanical science applies. Any extra effort or complication will slow draw time significantly. Either case is best facilitated by heightened SA, but the best technique and tooling for any scenario outside of espionage and assassination is by far, hands down, open carry.

This does not include deterrence factors also presented by an openly carrying society.


The conclusion is, and always will be, that concealed carry significantly increases the time from threat assessment to presentation due to simple mechanical movements involved.

If you can get your concealed retrieval and presentation down to 2.5 seconds, I wonder what you could get your OC down to. Just sayin...

I don't intend to make this a OC vs CC...

This is more about the fact that unloaded OC eats up so much more time to stop the deadly threat and requires using the off hand that could be used for blocking defense while drawing. Also its about the rights of disabled/handicapped/elderly being able to load in time at all when city/state requires unloaded carry.

If there are those members that are gun club members, maybe they might put together a Tueller type test for OC/CC/UOC and post the data.
The more average yet familiar gun user the better (i.e. non-speed draw / not competition shooter). Run each person in each situation say 5x for that person's average time, then average the group's times for each. Also would need a run time for distance covered by the BG, I'm figuring about 14 ft per second based of Tueller.

It would be very interesting to see these results, and you could add in unloaded magazine (like Portland Oregon requires in the city for non-CHL holders), if you have to load the magazine first (preempted by Oregon State, but on the city law books), then load the weapon, before you can stop the threat would make the "danger zone" huge.

"Yes officer, I know he was 150' away, but since city regs require I unloaded mag carry, and my mag load time is 10 seconds, plus 2 seconds to load the weapon and rack the slide, I need to start when the BG is 168' away, at 150' he was already in the threat zone."

I use a range near my home, but most members there are shotgun vs clay pigeon, I don't have the membership to ask and get a good data sampling.

Without looking at any studies. or published work. i can say this with confidence.

in my bedroom. with my 1911, my girlfriend and a stopwatch.

we clocked *with a safe weapon* un-holstering from a black hawk serpa, and dry fire from the hip at 0.9 seconds. FLAT.

we also clocked the same draw and fire straight out at 1.1 seconds.

when i attempted this with the same gun, and a Galco King tuck 2 IWB the time drastically slowed to 3 seconds.

now un-holster, fire, and mag change OC with the blackhawk was only 3.1 seconds. so only a fraction of a second was lost when i added a FULL MAG CHANGE.............this says a lot to me about the speed difference between OC and CC.....

carry for myself said:

in my bedroom. with my 1911, my girlfriend and a stopwatch...

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From now on, this will be my answer whenever I'm asked "Where do babies come from".

My first statement is a question: Have you ever seen anyone in a "quick draw" contest with a concealed weapon?

My second statement, is a personal observation. With CC you may need to draw. With OC, BG sees you are not a victim type, are able to, and most likely will resist, moves on to next "victim" type. The chances you will need to draw while OC are greatly diminished to never or almost never.

And if you do ever do actually need to draw, the "quick draw" compitition folks have already proven...you want to win the contest, you do not conceal.

One observation from Washington state's RCW 9.41.270(1). Unless you are in a true self defence situation it is illegal to "display" with intent to intimidate. A pistol in a holster does not meet this requirement,,,however,,,if you pull the pistol it does.

So now, lets consider a person that may look like a BG, or group of said, crossing the street moving with intent (in your mind) in your direction that really has you scared....you have a option as OC...turn strong side to the gang (totally legal) or pull you CC weapon (may not be legal). Now, let's say you were mistaken, it is not a gang, just a bunch of young (or not so young) people headed to a shop near where you are standing?????

hermannr said:

My first statement is a question: Have you ever seen anyone in a "quick draw" contest with a concealed weapon?

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Quick draw contests are based upon a wild west myth, not on what will actually happen in a self defense situation. Most 'quick-draw' contests are held using single-action revolvers and period costumes. Most folks in contemporary day do not walk around town with single action pistols tied low around their leg.

hermannr said:

And if you do ever do actually need to draw, the "quick draw" compitition folks have already proven...you want to win the contest, you do not conceal.

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The point is to have a weapon, and to know how to use it. Both open carry and concealed carry save lives, and I have never seen a news story where a gangsta' has drawn a glock, and a citizen has quick drawn a pistol just-in-the-nick-of-time to save themselves like in a movie.

hermannr said:

So now, lets consider a person that may look like a BG, or group of said, crossing the street moving with intent (in your mind) in your direction that really has you scared....you have a option as OC...turn strong side to the gang (totally legal) or pull you CC weapon (may not be legal).

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I don't CC much anymore, but when I did, I kept my pistol in a coat pocket with the safety on. In the situation described, simply slip a hand into the pocket and you've got your gun in your hand ready to go if things go badly. Whereas OC the only thing you can do is 'show' your weapon, but your hand is still not on the weapon.

hermannr said:

Now, let's say you were mistaken, it is not a gang, just a bunch of young (or not so young) people headed to a shop near where you are standing?????

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Well, then I can just walk on by with my hands in my pockets, and the kiddies are none the wiser. No big deal. No 'draw' required.

Sometimes the fastest draw is simply to already have a gun in your hand to start with.

thank god i live in pa, whew...

1st, oc'ing and unloaded weapon is simply stupid (cali)

2nd, although i don't cc much i will say w/ practice you can draw pretty quick.

3rd, i practice drawing from my blackhawk at home quite often and i have even out drawn some of my friends that are leo's

slowfiveoh - I hope you were not including me in that snarky statement about CC carriers

Lord Sega - to answer your question about draw times between OC and CC - after taking a tactical pistol class, I found that there is no appreciable difference between OC and CC draw times AFTER PRACTICING for proficiency in both.

As for UOC - during the tactical class, one of the scenarios required UOC and draw time was not slowed, but the LOAD time for the magazine was entirely dependent upon practice and proficiency ... some of the students never could gain any proficiency in the load, others could load, rack, target and shoot with some degree of time proficiency but never at any rate that would challenge OC/CC draw. This also makes your observations about the Tueller Drill quite on point. I suppose the Tueller Drill in Kali should be extended to at least 30', but then, at that distance, how would anyone be able to ascertain intent? My suggestion, move out of Kali until they bring their gun laws in line with more reasonable gun laws.

I want OC in the summer when it is 110F in the shade, and CC in the winter when it is 7F with a -15F windchill and I am wearing many layers with a heavy coat over all. I insist on wearing a long coat in the winter because my butt gets cold My long coat has also been modified so that the pocket has a slit through which I can draw my pistol and which I practice with for 2 weeks before cold weather gets here.

In the tactical pistol class, the instruction was to use your extended thumb to sweep the clothing out of the way ... not to use two hands to facilitate the draw. This is why I wear an open front garment (sleeveless denim shirt in summer, dress jacket in the winter) as concealment ... it is easy to sweep out of the way for a draw.

okboomer said:

slowfiveoh - I hope you were not including me in that snarky statement about CC carriers

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I haven't seen you denigrate OCers at any point on the forum so I am going to say "No. Certainly not."


As to the "sweeping away of fabric", my only contention is that it does put another layer of complication into the retrieval process. A simple layer of fabric could cause a lot of things to go wrong under duress. Certainly training and muscle memory development goes a long way here, but on the flipside, not everybody wears a simple, open and unbuttoned flannel shirt over their otherwise openly carried holster day in and day out.

Also, it does little to nothing to actually visibly deter.

slowfiveoh said:

I haven't seen you denigrate OCers at any point on the forum so I am going to say "No. Certainly not."

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LOL! I also would like to think that I am NOT a "rabid CC proponent" either :monkey

slowfiveoh said:

As to the "sweeping away of fabric", my only contention is that it does put another layer of complication into the retrieval process. A simple layer of fabric could cause a lot of things to go wrong under duress. Certainly training and muscle memory development goes a long way here, but on the flipside, not everybody wears a simple, open and unbuttoned flannel shirt over their otherwise openly carried holster day in and day out.

Also, it does little to nothing to actually visibly deter.

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In my experience, adding the clothing adds no more complication than a thumb break on a holster, or the retention of a Level II or Level III ... I used my nylon Uncle Mikes w/o thumb break and my Safari LII in class FYI.

Can't deny the visibility deterrance factor ... I know the intimidation factor of a gun definitely makes BGs rethink their intentions as even in my CC state I have had to pull 2x.

Another time (I didn't draw) I had a jacka$$ being just that, and when he stepped into me, I (having just completed my Use of Force class) dropped into the defense stance and placed my hand on my weapon (I carry at 4 o'clock, butt forward) which he could not see. He changed his mind about actually assaulting me, and said, "I know you have a gun ..." well, yes, multiply convicted felon, drug addict/dealer that you are, most in your class know that because I have been quite clear with my defendants that I am ALWAYS armed and I know how to use it! So, even though I didn't have to draw, it was still a deterrant.

I chafe at concealment being imposed upon me, but have found a "work around" or two :banana:

If forced to carry unloaded, inside 20' I'd go to the blade instead. Even if that means I have to charge while the other guy tries a Tueller drill.

Outside 20' I'd run like hell (off-axis, and preferably towards cover) while trying to load.

If hard cover was closer than the bad guy, I might go for that in the close scenario. I figure most bad guys will think they are on TV and just stand still and blaze away. Even if he moves around the cover, I've let him close the range. He'll be right on top of my knife when he makes the turn.

Elkad said:

If forced to carry unloaded, inside 20' I'd go to the blade instead. Even if that means I have to charge while the other guy tries a Tueller drill.

Outside 20' I'd run like hell (off-axis, and preferably towards cover) while trying to load.

If hard cover was closer than the bad guy, I might go for that in the close scenario. I figure most bad guys will think they are on TV and just stand still and blaze away. Even if he moves around the cover, I've let him close the range. He'll be right on top of my knife when he makes the turn.

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At last, a person here on this forum who actually thinks about these things!

I'd draw and fire any time an imminent threat exists. If things went to close quarters, things are so fluid there that it's impossible to predict an outcome, so...