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Thread: clarification needed

  1. #1
    Regular Member Sorcice's Avatar
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    Cool clarification needed

    I am pretty new to the forum but have been reading for the last few days. I wanted to know if(after recieving my ccw) lets say for instance(scenario to follow):

    I am in a quickie mart that allows carry and in the back getting a bag of chips when some a-hole comes in brandishing a weapon (but doesn't see me) pointing it at the clerk who is currently trying not to wet him/herself. Do i have to let the guy know i have a gun before shooting him or at least attempt communication wait for him to turn then fire or??? I am not sure how to handle shooting in the back...is that still self defense on behalf of the clerk?

    Thanks again for any info!

  2. #2
    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcice View Post
    I am pretty new to the forum but have been reading for the last few days. I wanted to know if(after recieving my ccw) lets say for instance(scenario to follow):

    I am in a quickie mart that allows carry and in the back getting a bag of chips when some a-hole comes in brandishing a weapon (but doesn't see me) pointing it at the clerk who is currently trying not to wet him/herself. Do i have to let the guy know i have a gun before shooting him or at least attempt communication wait for him to turn then fire or??? I am not sure how to handle shooting in the back...is that still self defense on behalf of the clerk?

    Thanks again for any info!http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/im...cons/icon6.png
    I wish any case was so cut and dry. No true simple answers, when it comes to the protection of self or others...

    -IF- I were to see this, and thought this bad guy was going to kill the attendent, I would not even think about asking him/her to stop untill I had drawn and took aim at him/her. If the bad guy even started to turn (with a gun in his hand), I would stop him ASAP.
    I live in Milwaukee, and I can say that I would be damn sure this bad guy was going to hurt the attendent or myself. Otherwise, I think your best bet is to hunker down with gun in hand...
    One side note. I would bet your quickie mart has a few cameras. Don't ever forget, you are on film. The tape of the whole thing will be used in court.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Sorcice's Avatar
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    ok, ya i would have been drawn as well. The only thing is until he shoots the clerk how can anyone be reasonably sure the robber will?? I guess stay out of sight and if he happens to turn your way hes toast?
    Last edited by Sorcice; 11-13-2011 at 07:56 AM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
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    I'm not a lawyer, and...

    ... never played one on TV, but the threat is real in this third party action. I would announce myself, being prepared to stop the threat. This should cause the perp to swing the weapon around. When all clear, and the weapon is not pointed at the clerk, but rather in a neutral area, and the perp is trying to make you the target, if the background is clear, STOP THE THREAT! boar out.
    The purpose of fighting is to win,
    there is no victory in defense.
    The sword is more important than the shield,
    and skill is more important than either.
    The final weapon is the brain,
    all else is supplemental.

  5. #5
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO Sorcice

    "What if" scenarios have way too many "what ifs" attached to them to give one definitive answer.

    Are you entitled to defend another's life? Yes

    Does which way the BG is facing mean anything? No, if the threat is not over.

    Remember that every round fired has a lawyer attached to it.

    What would be the result if you were just a good witness?

    Be prepared to give the right answer in under 1.5 sec.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    It all depends on the varied definition of "imminent" and if the jury or court accepts your version of it.

  7. #7
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    On the CWL application is the requirement for a signature on "A statement explaining self−defense and defense of others under s. 939.48, with a place for the applicant to sign his or her name to indicate that he or she has read and understands the statement."

    Wisconsin Statutes Subsection 939.48 Self−defense and defense of others. (1) A person is privileged to threaten or intentionally use force against another for the purpose of preventing or terminating what the person reasonably believes to be an unlawful interference with his or her person by such other person. The actor may intentionally use only such force or threat thereof as the actor reasonably believes is necessary to prevent or terminate the interference. The actor may not intentionally use force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless the actor reasonably believes
    that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself.

    That is hardly clarification, nor is it sufficient reading of Wisconsin Statute law that includes subsections on such as

    939.43 Mistake. 939.44 Adequate provocation. 939.45 Privilege. 939.46 Coercion. 939.47 Necessity. 939.48 Self−defense and defense of others. 939.49 Defense of property and protection against retail theft.

    A wiser man than I here wrote, "The common law elements of self-defense are four; be innocent of instigation, be in reasonable fear of bodily harm, use sufficient force only to deliver oneself from evil, and attempt to withdraw."

    In recent readings (preparing my thesis topic proposal) on finance and management I have come across "The Law of the Instrument" (the Golden Gun) and - apologizing now for the French untranslated - Déformation professionnelle (it is an idiom and humorous bon-mot). The first is a caution for all legally armed citizens and the second should give pause to those regarded as professional.

  8. #8
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcice View Post
    ok, ya i would have been drawn as well. The only thing is until he shoots the clerk how can anyone be reasonably sure the robber will?? I guess stay out of sight and if he happens to turn your way hes toast?
    You can't read his another's mind, but there is no requirement to wait until after injury or death has occurred - one can act to protect.

    Toast? Serious business requires serious and responsible thought - be responsible.
    .
    Have you had any training at all? Do you even have a permit and know what it is called? You do know that neither is a permit required for defensive action or to carry, right?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Sorcice's Avatar
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    i was an armed guard in CA for 3 years before moving to WI. I have been well trained in use of force in the capacity of a security guard in CA. i was looking for specifics since in CA they specifically told us if at all possible to not use deadly force unless the BG knew we were there and presented an immanent threat(be it a knife, gun, screwdriver, etc..). Meaning shooting from behind was a bad idea. As you said there are lawyers attached to every bullet and bullets to the back look very bad.

    And per your question "Do you even have a permit and know what it is called? You do know that neither is a permit required for defensive action or to carry, right?"

    A: I have applied with my permit from CA and would only be concealed carry not open. As for the last part, yes unless your concealed. Hence the application.
    Last edited by Sorcice; 11-13-2011 at 08:54 AM.

  10. #10
    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
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    Smile What the hell did he say?????

    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    On the CWL application is the requirement for a signature on "A statement explaining self−defense and defense of others under s. 939.48, with a place for the applicant to sign his or her name to indicate that he or she has read and understands the statement."

    Wisconsin Statutes Subsection 939.48 Self−defense and defense of others. (1) A person is privileged to threaten or intentionally use force against another for the purpose of preventing or terminating what the person reasonably believes to be an unlawful interference with his or her person by such other person. The actor may intentionally use only such force or threat thereof as the actor reasonably believes is necessary to prevent or terminate the interference. The actor may not intentionally use force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless the actor reasonably believes
    that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself.

    That is hardly clarification, nor is it sufficient reading of Wisconsin Statute law that includes subsections on such as

    939.43 Mistake. 939.44 Adequate provocation. 939.45 Privilege. 939.46 Coercion. 939.47 Necessity. 939.48 Self−defense and defense of others. 939.49 Defense of property and protection against retail theft.

    A wiser man than I here wrote, "The common law elements of self-defense are four; be innocent of instigation, be in reasonable fear of bodily harm, use sufficient force only to deliver oneself from evil, and attempt to withdraw."

    In recent readings (preparing my thesis topic proposal) on finance and management I have come across "The Law of the Instrument" (the Golden Gun) and - apologizing now for the French untranslated - Déformation professionnelle (it is an idiom and humorous bon-mot). The first is a caution for all legally armed citizens and the second should give pause to those regarded as professional.

    I think I missed the bus. boar out.
    The purpose of fighting is to win,
    there is no victory in defense.
    The sword is more important than the shield,
    and skill is more important than either.
    The final weapon is the brain,
    all else is supplemental.

  11. #11
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by wild boar View Post
    I think I missed the bus. boar out.
    Too bad. It was the last short bus to the range.

  12. #12
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    In this scenario

    The first problem you have is that beyond your target is a store clerk. Under stress firing at a bad guy you do not want to use a store clerk with wet pants as a backstop. So you really need to move before engaging anything. Most quickie marts require head shots because of product displays or a lot of movement to the door to clear them. Do you want to be standing between this bad guy and the only available exit? Are you able to make such a shot? Will the actor see you and react? Is your weapon ready to fire, safety off, loaded chamber? Is anyone else in the store? Are there two more a-holes waiting in a car with shotguns who will cut you down when they see you moving or firing in the store? If at the time your thinking about what the jury will think based on where you shoot than no ones life is in any real danger. Seems to me you have a lot more to think about than that.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    I would judge the situation based on the specifics at the time. I will say that I carry only to protect myself and my loved ones. Unless the situation excaladed to the extreme or the threat came my way I would not draw my firearm.

    One thing is for sure... You had better have your question answered in your own mind BEFORE you carry a firearm in public.

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  14. #14
    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    Most of the time the BG will take what he wants and leave...if your in the back of the store. It might be best to draw to low ready and protect yourself. Most stores have a bathroom in the back...nice thick solid wood doors. Maybe find a good hiding spot. Remember your not a cop, and your not out to be a hero, your trying to survive. Any shootout your in, has the potential for serious loss, choose carefully.
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  15. #15
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motofixxer View Post
    Most of the time the BG will take what he wants and leave...if your in the back of the store. It might be best to draw to low ready and protect yourself. Most stores have a bathroom in the back...nice thick solid wood doors. Maybe find a good hiding spot. Remember your not a cop, and your not out to be a hero, your trying to survive. Any shootout your in, has the potential for serious loss, choose carefully.
    This.
    Cover and concealment should be the first priority in order to preserve your own life safety.
    Remember, incoming fire has the right-of-way. If you draw attention to yourself you may draw fire. Your life and/or the life of the clerk is not worth the money being stolen and deadly force may not be used to defend property. While you may say that the drawn gun is an imminent threat to the clerk's life, the threat increases exponentially should the felon feel cornered by someone else with a firearm. If you would fail to stop the threat instantly, innocent people may die. You could inflict a fatal wound but not stop the ability of the felon from shooting back at you or shooting the clerk.
    Obviously each scenario is different and the rules change a bit if he starts shooting the place up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcice View Post
    Do i have to let the guy know i have a gun before shooting him or at least attempt communication wait for him to turn then fire or??? I am not sure how to handle shooting in the back...is that still self defense on behalf of the clerk?
    Your actions would have to be based on you using deadly force to stop the imminent threat to the clerk's life so the only time you would provide a verbal warning to the felon is after the threat is stopped to make it clear to him that he should not present himself as a threat again.
    I am thinking that once you cause loss of motor control and a path for bodily fluids to rapidly exit their natural path of flow within the body that he has been properly warned.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 11-13-2011 at 02:04 PM.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    I.K. wrote....

    Cover and concealment should be the first priority in order to preserve your own life safety.
    Remember, incoming fire has the right-of-way. If you draw attention to yourself you may draw fire. Your life and/or the life of the clerk is not worth the money being stolen and deadly force may not be used to defend property. While you may say that the drawn gun is an imminent threat to the clerk's life, the threat increases exponentially should the felon feel cornered by someone else with a firearm. If you would fail to stop the threat instantly, innocent people may die. You could inflict a fatal wound but not stop the ability of the felon from shooting back at you or shooting the clerk.
    Obviously each scenario is different and the rules change a bit if he starts shooting the place
    +1000

    Outdoorsman1
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  17. #17
    Regular Member Sorcice's Avatar
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    thanks for the speedy response everyone! moto and I.K.'s responses answered the way i had thought it may be.

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