Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Important : What's the legality of signs like this? VJ's Mart West Allis POSTED!!

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin, ,
    Posts
    836

    Important : What's the legality of signs like this? VJ's Mart West Allis POSTED!!

    VJ's Food Mart @ 9206 W. Schlinger Ave, Milwaukee/West Allis is posted with THIS sign.

    It has an image of a revolver crossed out, but the wording says "No CONCEALED weapons allowed on this property".

    So? What's the legality of open carry at a location like this? Does the crossed out handgun pic legally confer no guns whatsoever? Or does the wording override this? I'm confident the store means to ban all weapons but put up this convoluted sign instead. Any opinions on how this sign would stand up in court if someone open carried there?

    What if someone open carried a Taser or billy club?

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    West Bend, WI
    Posts
    308
    Sherman Perk is posted as No CONCEALED weapons, flamethrowers, or bazookas". The owner allows/welcomes open carry. That is how I would interpret this sign. Concealed weapons are not allowed, but openly carried weapons are. Definitely leaves it open to interpretations with management
    You can speak softy and carry a big stick, but I'll stick to my guns.

    Member - Wisconsin Carry, Inc. http://ww.wisconsincarry.org
    Member of West Bend Barton Sportsman's Club - http://www.wbbsc.com

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,169

    I Assume This Is An Intellectual Exercise

    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    VJ's Food Mart @ 9206 W. Schlinger Ave, Milwaukee/West Allis is posted with THIS sign.

    It has an image of a revolver crossed out, but the wording says "No CONCEALED weapons allowed on this property".

    So? What's the legality of open carry at a location like this? Does the crossed out handgun pic legally confer no guns whatsoever? Or does the wording override this? I'm confident the store means to ban all weapons but put up this convoluted sign instead. Any opinions on how this sign would stand up in court if someone open carried there?

    What if someone open carried a Taser or billy club?
    You are a smart guy and given your profession, the answer should be clear. Let's say an establishment had a sign that said "No Rodents Allowed" and also had a ghostbuster with a beaver featured. Do you get to bring in your pet rat? The most expansive prohibition being communicated includes beavers, rats, mice, etc. The choice of one of this set to be part of a graphic does not negate that fact. Replace the beaver with a parakeet. What is banned? Perhaps beavers were the original target but then the list of the unwelcome was expanded.

    Now a sign that said "No Unleashed Rodents" would not bar a tethered squirrel. The owner presumably would not add restrictive language unless he meant it. I would check just to make sure but it would appear that open carry of any weapon would be ok.

    Judges aren't fond of defendants trying to be too clever by half.

  4. #4
    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    north of the Peoples Republic of Madison
    Posts
    626
    'Habitat for Humanity' Restore in Madistan has a similar sign on the door...it also states 'no CONCEALED weapons'...STill considering OCing to see what happens...

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Green Bay, Wisconsin, United States
    Posts
    49
    I went to a seminar held by the Green Bay Area Camber of Commerce. They has a very Pro-2A lawyer talking. This very question came up. His response was that concealed means just that and if you OC you are not in violation ... he then added that you will be asked to leave and the signs will be changed. His suggestion is to communicate with the owner first.

    I will say it was nice to see a Pro-2A guy speaking at a camber event. I asked a few business owners I knew there about posting, everyone that heard this guy speak said they would not post.

  6. #6
    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    wisconsin
    Posts
    445

    The sigh clearly...

    depicts a revolver leading one to believe that a pistol OCed is welcome; then again, what do I know about the mind of an anti. boar out.
    The purpose of fighting is to win,
    there is no victory in defense.
    The sword is more important than the shield,
    and skill is more important than either.
    The final weapon is the brain,
    all else is supplemental.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    The Northwoods, lakeland area, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,170

    So if a person comes in with a large wrench in hand and beats the cashier...........

    It would be ok because it is not being concealed, and it is a tool that the actor decided to use as a weapon. right?

    Since I had a girlfriend say to me "That thing should be classified as a weapon" does that mean I am now forced to walk into VJ's with my pants unzipped and my meat hanging out because of his sign?

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,818
    Quote Originally Posted by Nutczak View Post
    It would be ok because it is not being concealed, and it is a tool that the actor decided to use as a weapon. right?

    Since I had a girlfriend say to me "That thing should be classified as a weapon" does that mean I am now forced to walk into VJ's with my pants unzipped and my meat hanging out because of his sign?
    Maybe in that case you should wear a sign or a shirt: "Snap into a Slim Jimô"
    R[ƎVO˩]UTION

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Lex malla, lex nulla

  9. #9
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Terra, Sol
    Posts
    2,779
    Quote Originally Posted by Nutczak View Post
    Since I had a girlfriend say to me "That thing should be classified as a weapon" does that mean I am now forced to walk into VJ's with my pants unzipped and my meat hanging out because of his sign?
    My only question Sir is now that you have won the internet... What will you do next?

    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 11-14-2011 at 02:09 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,169

    Don't Worry About A Negligent Discharge

    Quote Originally Posted by Nutczak View Post
    It would be ok because it is not being concealed, and it is a tool that the actor decided to use as a weapon. right?
    For purposes of this law, weapon is clearly defined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nutczak View Post
    Since I had a girlfriend say to me "That thing should be classified as a weapon" does that mean I am now forced to walk into VJ's with my pants unzipped and my meat hanging out because of his sign?
    Since she undoubtedly meant "classified as a concealed weapon" as she squinted - no OC would be possible. Remember it's ordinary observation not observation with a magnifying glass.

  11. #11
    Regular Member RR_Broccoli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    WI
    Posts
    172
    Quote Originally Posted by wild boar View Post
    depicts a revolver leading one to believe that a pistol OCed is welcome; then again, what do I know about the mind of an anti. boar out.
    They just mean it's OK to carry a revolver, but only with the clip removed.

    I think the lack of specific wording and specifications in the law is going to cause problems. 5 by 7 inches says nothing about the size of the FONT on the sign. They'd be better with a "must use regulation sign printed at regulation size" and then release a PDF of the sign for printing, making the sign quote the exception clause (and in fine print, the liability clause that goes with it).

    They are all "We don't want Broccoli's money" signs to me, but this free-range sign creation stuff is not a good way to convey feelings about laws.
    "I can only be held responsible for my own stupidity." - Captain Nemo

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by RR_Broccoli View Post
    They just mean it's OK to carry a revolver, but only with the clip removed.

    I think the lack of specific wording and specifications in the law is going to cause problems. 5 by 7 inches says nothing about the size of the FONT on the sign. They'd be better with a "must use regulation sign printed at regulation size" and then release a PDF of the sign for printing, making the sign quote the exception clause (and in fine print, the liability clause that goes with it).

    They are all "We don't want Broccoli's money" signs to me, but this free-range sign creation stuff is not a good way to convey feelings about laws.
    I agree if they are going to have signs carry the weight of law they should be a standard sign. I would much rather have them take the sign provision out but at least change it so that the signs have to have specific verbiage, font, size and colors. 5x7 sign but if the font is tiny and just words you may not even realize what that sign was. I really appreciate other states where the signs do not carry the weight of law. If they see you carrying and don't like it they can ask you to leave if you don't leave then it is trespassing. I don't pay any attention to signs in Iowa and will continue carrying right past them. I'm not advocating people do that in Wisconsin as it could get expensive really fast. Class B forfeiture can be up to $1,000 can't it?

  13. #13
    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    1,497
    Quote Originally Posted by TaurusToter View Post
    Sherman Perk is posted as No CONCEALED weapons, flamethrowers, or bazookas". The owner allows/welcomes open carry. That is how I would interpret this sign. Concealed weapons are not allowed, but openly carried weapons are. Definitely leaves it open to interpretations with management
    Sounds good to me. I will stick to that for sure.
    The word of law is clear.

    Looks like OC is fine once again!

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    West Bend, WI
    Posts
    308
    But, as with OC, it's best to leave the moment someone asks. If they call the cops, you can't just point to the sign and say, "First, it's not a legal 5"x7" sign. Second, I'm open carrying, not concealing".

    It's in your best interest to completely avoid these places 100%. "Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law". You can very quickly find yourself in MKEgal's situation. Small sign says "No concealed weapons", so you OC. Instead of approaching you, someone calls police. Now the SWAT team shows up (likely if you're in the burbs where they are bored and have nothing else better to do). You will be arrested, your gun will be confiscated, and you'll go to jail. When your day in court comes, you can explain your rationale to the judge. If the judge has a sense of humor, your charges will be dropped. If he doesn't, you're looking at the bottom of a very heavy book swinging in your direction.

    Myself, personally, I would clarify the intentions of the establishment. If they allow OC, then why not CC? Is the staff aware of the difference, or do they just see MWAG? We've all read the stories of people overstepping the limits of their position and calling LEO. Once LEO gets the call, they will respond. I tried finding the article from the guy who was OC'ing in Wal-Mart earlier this summer, and they asked him to leave. He returned his weapon to his truck, and continued shopping. Next thing he knew, LEO was surrounding him with shotguns and AR's. He didn't get arrested since he was not carrying, but it sparked a lot of conversation about Wal-Mart. We all know they are Pro 2A, but apparently the employees are not aware of company policy.

    Carry safe
    You can speak softy and carry a big stick, but I'll stick to my guns.

    Member - Wisconsin Carry, Inc. http://ww.wisconsincarry.org
    Member of West Bend Barton Sportsman's Club - http://www.wbbsc.com

  15. #15
    Regular Member DangerClose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    The mean streets of WI
    Posts
    570
    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    VJ's Food Mart @ 9206 W. Schlinger Ave, Milwaukee/West Allis is posted with

    It has an image of a revolver crossed out, but the wording says "No CONCEALED weapons allowed on this property".

    So? What's the legality of open carry at a location like this?
    Maybe it's just me, but instead of asking people on the internet, I'd call the store and ask them since it's their sign.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin, ,
    Posts
    836
    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites

    So? What's the legality of open carry at a location like this?




    Quote Originally Posted by DangerClose View Post
    Maybe it's just me, but instead of asking people on the internet, I'd call the store and ask them since it's their sign.
    Why would you expect 2 immigrants to know how the courts would interpret such a sign? I'm a cop and I don't know what to expect.

  17. #17
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    SE, WI
    Posts
    7,322
    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    Why would you expect 2 immigrants to know how the courts would interpret such a sign? I'm a cop and I don't know what to expect.
    Thank you for doing your job the best you can. I'm glad to see an officer uphold the law instead of interpreting it his own way. I hope you meet you one day and shake your hand.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  18. #18
    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    wisconsin
    Posts
    445

    Those who have a license...

    ... that brings you closer to constitutional correctness, and have the pamphlet, look under businesses. "Notice can be verbal or via a sign posted in a prominent..... Whats up with that? boar out
    The purpose of fighting is to win,
    there is no victory in defense.
    The sword is more important than the shield,
    and skill is more important than either.
    The final weapon is the brain,
    all else is supplemental.

  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,818
    Quote Originally Posted by wild boar View Post
    ... that brings you closer to constitutional correctness, and have the pamphlet, look under businesses. "Notice can be verbal or via a sign posted in a prominent..... Whats up with that? boar out
    If I'm reading you right: Just as a business could kick us out before, they still can; sign or not. A sign that is at least 5x7 is the only way to provide notice non-verbally by the law. A verbal notice can still be given with or without the sign. Once notice is received, you need to leave/disarm or you violate the law.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 11-16-2011 at 02:03 PM.
    R[ƎVO˩]UTION

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Lex malla, lex nulla

  20. #20
    Regular Member DangerClose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    The mean streets of WI
    Posts
    570
    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites

    Why would you expect 2 immigrants to know how the courts would interpret such a sign? I'm a cop and I don't know what to expect.
    If a business puts a sign up that might say they don't want me there, law or not, I'd like to know if they don't want me there.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •