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Important : What's the legality of signs like this? VJ's Mart West Allis POSTED!!

pkbites

Regular Member
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Jun 2, 2006
Messages
773
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, ,
VJ's Food Mart @ 9206 W. Schlinger Ave, Milwaukee/West Allis is posted with THIS sign.

It has an image of a revolver crossed out, but the wording says "No CONCEALED weapons allowed on this property".

So? What's the legality of open carry at a location like this? Does the crossed out handgun pic legally confer no guns whatsoever? Or does the wording override this? I'm confident the store means to ban all weapons but put up this convoluted sign instead. Any opinions on how this sign would stand up in court if someone open carried there?

What if someone open carried a Taser or billy club?
 

TaurusToter

Campaign Veteran
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Jul 27, 2011
Messages
308
Location
West Bend, WI
Sherman Perk is posted as No CONCEALED weapons, flamethrowers, or bazookas". The owner allows/welcomes open carry. That is how I would interpret this sign. Concealed weapons are not allowed, but openly carried weapons are. Definitely leaves it open to interpretations with management
 

apjonas

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, ,
I Assume This Is An Intellectual Exercise

VJ's Food Mart @ 9206 W. Schlinger Ave, Milwaukee/West Allis is posted with THIS sign.

It has an image of a revolver crossed out, but the wording says "No CONCEALED weapons allowed on this property".

So? What's the legality of open carry at a location like this? Does the crossed out handgun pic legally confer no guns whatsoever? Or does the wording override this? I'm confident the store means to ban all weapons but put up this convoluted sign instead. Any opinions on how this sign would stand up in court if someone open carried there?

What if someone open carried a Taser or billy club?

You are a smart guy and given your profession, the answer should be clear. Let's say an establishment had a sign that said "No Rodents Allowed" and also had a ghostbuster with a beaver featured. Do you get to bring in your pet rat? The most expansive prohibition being communicated includes beavers, rats, mice, etc. The choice of one of this set to be part of a graphic does not negate that fact. Replace the beaver with a parakeet. What is banned? Perhaps beavers were the original target but then the list of the unwelcome was expanded.

Now a sign that said "No Unleashed Rodents" would not bar a tethered squirrel. The owner presumably would not add restrictive language unless he meant it. I would check just to make sure but it would appear that open carry of any weapon would be ok.

Judges aren't fond of defendants trying to be too clever by half.
 

mrmike.me

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Joined
Mar 12, 2011
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49
Location
Green Bay, Wisconsin, United States
I went to a seminar held by the Green Bay Area Camber of Commerce. They has a very Pro-2A lawyer talking. This very question came up. His response was that concealed means just that and if you OC you are not in violation ... he then added that you will be asked to leave and the signs will be changed. His suggestion is to communicate with the owner first.

I will say it was nice to see a Pro-2A guy speaking at a camber event. I asked a few business owners I knew there about posting, everyone that heard this guy speak said they would not post.
 

wild boar

Regular Member
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Apr 2, 2011
Messages
445
Location
wisconsin
The sigh clearly...

depicts a revolver leading one to believe that a pistol OCed is welcome; then again, what do I know about the mind of an anti. boar out.
 

Nutczak

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The Northwoods, lakeland area, Wisconsin, USA
So if a person comes in with a large wrench in hand and beats the cashier...........

It would be ok because it is not being concealed, and it is a tool that the actor decided to use as a weapon. right?

Since I had a girlfriend say to me "That thing should be classified as a weapon" does that mean I am now forced to walk into VJ's with my pants unzipped and my meat hanging out because of his sign?
 

Brass Magnet

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Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
It would be ok because it is not being concealed, and it is a tool that the actor decided to use as a weapon. right?

Since I had a girlfriend say to me "That thing should be classified as a weapon" does that mean I am now forced to walk into VJ's with my pants unzipped and my meat hanging out because of his sign?

Maybe in that case you should wear a sign or a shirt: "Snap into a Slim Jim™" :p:lol:
 

HandyHamlet

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Terra, Sol
Since I had a girlfriend say to me "That thing should be classified as a weapon" does that mean I am now forced to walk into VJ's with my pants unzipped and my meat hanging out because of his sign?

My only question Sir is now that you have won the internet... What will you do next?

:lol:
 
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apjonas

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, ,
Don't Worry About A Negligent Discharge

It would be ok because it is not being concealed, and it is a tool that the actor decided to use as a weapon. right?

For purposes of this law, weapon is clearly defined.

Since I had a girlfriend say to me "That thing should be classified as a weapon" does that mean I am now forced to walk into VJ's with my pants unzipped and my meat hanging out because of his sign?

Since she undoubtedly meant "classified as a concealed weapon" as she squinted - no OC would be possible. Remember it's ordinary observation not observation with a magnifying glass.
 

RR_Broccoli

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
170
Location
WI
depicts a revolver leading one to believe that a pistol OCed is welcome; then again, what do I know about the mind of an anti. boar out.

They just mean it's OK to carry a revolver, but only with the clip removed. :banana:

I think the lack of specific wording and specifications in the law is going to cause problems. 5 by 7 inches says nothing about the size of the FONT on the sign. They'd be better with a "must use regulation sign printed at regulation size" and then release a PDF of the sign for printing, making the sign quote the exception clause (and in fine print, the liability clause that goes with it).

They are all "We don't want Broccoli's money" signs to me, but this free-range sign creation stuff is not a good way to convey feelings about laws.
 

bforn

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Feb 17, 2010
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, ,
They just mean it's OK to carry a revolver, but only with the clip removed. :banana:

I think the lack of specific wording and specifications in the law is going to cause problems. 5 by 7 inches says nothing about the size of the FONT on the sign. They'd be better with a "must use regulation sign printed at regulation size" and then release a PDF of the sign for printing, making the sign quote the exception clause (and in fine print, the liability clause that goes with it).

They are all "We don't want Broccoli's money" signs to me, but this free-range sign creation stuff is not a good way to convey feelings about laws.

I agree if they are going to have signs carry the weight of law they should be a standard sign. I would much rather have them take the sign provision out but at least change it so that the signs have to have specific verbiage, font, size and colors. 5x7 sign but if the font is tiny and just words you may not even realize what that sign was. I really appreciate other states where the signs do not carry the weight of law. If they see you carrying and don't like it they can ask you to leave if you don't leave then it is trespassing. I don't pay any attention to signs in Iowa and will continue carrying right past them. I'm not advocating people do that in Wisconsin as it could get expensive really fast. Class B forfeiture can be up to $1,000 can't it?
 

AaronS

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May 2, 2009
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1,497
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Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
Sherman Perk is posted as No CONCEALED weapons, flamethrowers, or bazookas". The owner allows/welcomes open carry. That is how I would interpret this sign. Concealed weapons are not allowed, but openly carried weapons are. Definitely leaves it open to interpretations with management

Sounds good to me. I will stick to that for sure.
The word of law is clear.

Looks like OC is fine once again!
 

TaurusToter

Campaign Veteran
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Jul 27, 2011
Messages
308
Location
West Bend, WI
But, as with OC, it's best to leave the moment someone asks. If they call the cops, you can't just point to the sign and say, "First, it's not a legal 5"x7" sign. Second, I'm open carrying, not concealing".

It's in your best interest to completely avoid these places 100%. "Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law". You can very quickly find yourself in MKEgal's situation. Small sign says "No concealed weapons", so you OC. Instead of approaching you, someone calls police. Now the SWAT team shows up (likely if you're in the burbs where they are bored and have nothing else better to do). You will be arrested, your gun will be confiscated, and you'll go to jail. When your day in court comes, you can explain your rationale to the judge. If the judge has a sense of humor, your charges will be dropped. If he doesn't, you're looking at the bottom of a very heavy book swinging in your direction.

Myself, personally, I would clarify the intentions of the establishment. If they allow OC, then why not CC? Is the staff aware of the difference, or do they just see MWAG? We've all read the stories of people overstepping the limits of their position and calling LEO. Once LEO gets the call, they will respond. I tried finding the article from the guy who was OC'ing in Wal-Mart earlier this summer, and they asked him to leave. He returned his weapon to his truck, and continued shopping. Next thing he knew, LEO was surrounding him with shotguns and AR's. He didn't get arrested since he was not carrying, but it sparked a lot of conversation about Wal-Mart. We all know they are Pro 2A, but apparently the employees are not aware of company policy.

Carry safe
 

DangerClose

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2011
Messages
570
Location
The mean streets of WI
VJ's Food Mart @ 9206 W. Schlinger Ave, Milwaukee/West Allis is posted with

It has an image of a revolver crossed out, but the wording says "No CONCEALED weapons allowed on this property".

So? What's the legality of open carry at a location like this?

Maybe it's just me, but instead of asking people on the internet, I'd call the store and ask them since it's their sign.
 

pkbites

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Jun 2, 2006
Messages
773
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, ,
Quote Originally Posted by pkbites

So? What's the legality of open carry at a location like this?




Maybe it's just me, but instead of asking people on the internet, I'd call the store and ask them since it's their sign.

Why would you expect 2 immigrants to know how the courts would interpret such a sign? I'm a cop and I don't know what to expect.
 

protias

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Dec 18, 2008
Messages
7,308
Location
SE, WI
Why would you expect 2 immigrants to know how the courts would interpret such a sign? I'm a cop and I don't know what to expect.

Thank you for doing your job the best you can. I'm glad to see an officer uphold the law instead of interpreting it his own way. I hope you meet you one day and shake your hand.
 

wild boar

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Apr 2, 2011
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wisconsin
Those who have a license...

... that brings you closer to constitutional correctness, and have the pamphlet, look under businesses. "Notice can be verbal or via a sign posted in a prominent..... Whats up with that? boar out
 

Brass Magnet

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Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
... that brings you closer to constitutional correctness, and have the pamphlet, look under businesses. "Notice can be verbal or via a sign posted in a prominent..... Whats up with that? boar out

If I'm reading you right: Just as a business could kick us out before, they still can; sign or not. A sign that is at least 5x7 is the only way to provide notice non-verbally by the law. A verbal notice can still be given with or without the sign. Once notice is received, you need to leave/disarm or you violate the law.
 
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DangerClose

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570
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The mean streets of WI
Quote Originally Posted by pkbites

Why would you expect 2 immigrants to know how the courts would interpret such a sign? I'm a cop and I don't know what to expect.

If a business puts a sign up that might say they don't want me there, law or not, I'd like to know if they don't want me there.
 
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