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Thread: If a business posts, does their liability extend to the parking lot?

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    If a business posts, does their liability extend to the parking lot?

    I understand that if a business posts NO CARRY, they are accepting responsibility for employees and patrons, but does that make them responsible in the parking lot as well? I mean if you cant carry into the business you will need to leave your defense firearm in the car, leaving you vulnerable from that point. So logical that means that business should also be responsible for your safety while on their property or shared parking lot, would you agree?
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    I understand that if a business posts NO CARRY, they are accepting responsibility for employees and patrons, but does that make them responsible in the parking lot as well? I mean if you cant carry into the business you will need to leave your defense firearm in the car, leaving you vulnerable from that point. So logical that means that business should also be responsible for your safety while on their property or shared parking lot, would you agree?
    You can carry in the parking lot, but you cannot carry into the building. So if you have to disarm because you went into the building, they can be held liable.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    If the "No Firearms / Weapons" signs are posted at the entrance to the establishment, but there is no signage at the perimeter of the parking lot that states "No Firearms / Weapons allowed on this property", then you should be legal by leaving your firearm in your vehicle.

    Case in point:

    The Veterans Administration Medical Center in Memphis posts signs at the entrances to their parking lots which forbids bringing weapons onto the property (parking lot, sidewalks, buildings); and there are clearly marked "No Weapons" signs at each entrance of the building(s). When I go for my appointments, I have to leave my handgun at home or risk getting arrested and appearing in United States District Court, which I have absolutely no desire in doing.
    Last edited by MilProGuy; 11-14-2011 at 10:29 AM. Reason: edited to add information.
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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilProGuy View Post
    If the "No Firearms / Weapons" signs are posted at the entrance to the establishment, but there is no signage at the perimeter of the parking lot that states "No Firearms / Weapons allowed on this property", then you should be legal by leaving your firearm in your vehicle.

    Case in point:

    The Veterans Administration Medical Center in Memphis posts signs at the entrances to their parking lots which forbids bringing weapons onto the property (parking lot, sidewalks, buildings); and there are clearly marked "No Weapons" signs at each entrance of the building(s).
    They cannot ban the property, 175.60 (15m) (16).

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...tatutes/175/60
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    They cannot ban the property, 175.60 (15m) (16).

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...tatutes/175/60
    Maybe not in Wisconsin...but the VAMC in Memphis, Tennessee certainly does.

    A friend of mine checked himself into the mental health ward a few months ago, and in the middle of a Q&A session with the psychiatrist, he divulged that he had an encased shotgun in his work van, which was parked on the medical center's parking lot, along with all his other personal belongings, as he was in the process of moving to Indiana to stay with his mother.

    His shotgun was confiscated and he will be appearing in U.S. District Court on charges of bringing a weapon onto the property of the medical center.
    Last edited by MilProGuy; 11-14-2011 at 11:20 AM. Reason: edited to add additional information.
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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    You can carry in the parking lot, but you cannot carry into the building. So if you have to disarm because you went into the building, they can be held liable.
    Thats what I thought, now what about multiple businesses? Example is PickNSave shares the parking lot with Blockbuster, Fashion Bug, some restaurant etc. Blockbuster posts and PickNSave doesn't. Now I get mugged because I am going into Blockbuster (not yet into the building), does that make both liable or just the posting business? The reason I ask is if its a shared liability, company A may not want to share liability with company B. Might be a bit of a stretch but I can foresee the legal battle if it were to happen.

    Milpro, I am pretty sure they can not prohibit you from legally transporting a firearm in your vehicle. So if you drive there in your car and leave your firearm locked up they have no say in the matter. The exclusion may be if they provide secure lock boxes outside their property lines. At least thats what I picked up from my recent CCW course.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    They cannot ban the property, 175.60 (15m) (16).

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...tatutes/175/60
    Federal property, federal rules.


    Edit:
    Looking at Title 18, United States Code, Sec. 930. I don't see property banned.
    Last edited by Jason in WI; 11-14-2011 at 10:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MilProGuy View Post
    If the "No Firearms / Weapons" signs are posted at the entrance to the establishment, but there is no signage at the perimeter of the parking lot that states "No Firearms / Weapons allowed on this property", then you should be legal by leaving your firearm in your vehicle.

    Case in point:

    The Veterans Administration Medical Center in Memphis posts signs at the entrances to their parking lots which forbids bringing weapons onto the property (parking lot, sidewalks, buildings); and there are clearly marked "No Weapons" signs at each entrance of the building(s). When I go for my appointments, I have to leave my handgun at home or risk getting arrested and appearing in United States District Court, which I have absolutely no desire in doing.
    Federal law trumps WI statutes, Title 18 US Code says it is against Federal Law to have firearms anywhere on VA property which includes the parking areas. I work at VA Madison and we were briefed on this also.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason in WI View Post
    Federal property, federal rules.


    Edit:
    Looking at Title 18, United States Code, Sec. 930. I don't see property banned.
    I was talking about state or private business land, not federal.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Would not Federal safe transport laws apply as long as the firearm was unloaded/encased/transported per the law. (Looking for a link to the law right now)

    As far as the VA briefing you about it, they could be wrong. My employer told me they were posting the building, even though they already have a no firearms policy listed in the employee manual. They said they were not going to post the parking lot as if it was a favor to me. I had to inform them they were not allowed to post the lot per Act 35. They were also not familiar with the immunity clause if they had not posted. How many places actually read the laws before making policy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendon .45 View Post
    Would not Federal safe transport laws apply as long as the firearm was unloaded/encased/transported per the law. (Looking for a link to the law right now)

    As far as the VA briefing you about it, they could be wrong. My employer told me they were posting the building, even though they already have a no firearms policy listed in the employee manual. They said they were not going to post the parking lot as if it was a favor to me. I had to inform them they were not allowed to post the lot per Act 35. They were also not familiar with the immunity clause if they had not posted. How many places actually read the laws before making policy?
    My employer just posted the parking lot even after I told the plant and HR managers that they could not following an announcement in a meeting, and forwarded on the FAQ link that outlines this to them. Now I'm wondering if: I should let it go, push the point with our national speak up line and face possible retribution at the plant level, or wait for the possibility of them firing me for having a weapon in my vehicle and then reap the rewards of a legal settlement after they violate my rights and fire me and I sue. My only question is if the clause in act 35 could be used to protect a hunter's long gun in his vehicle. I think you'd be hard pressed to find at least one vehicle in work or SCHOOL parking lots during the hunting seasons without a firearm in it.

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kawisixer01 View Post
    My employer just posted the parking lot even after I told the plant and HR managers that they could not following an announcement in a meeting, and forwarded on the FAQ link that outlines this to them. Now I'm wondering if: I should let it go, push the point with our national speak up line and face possible retribution at the plant level, or wait for the possibility of them firing me for having a weapon in my vehicle and then reap the rewards of a legal settlement after they violate my rights and fire me and I sue. My only question is if the clause in act 35 could be used to protect a hunter's long gun in his vehicle. I think you'd be hard pressed to find at least one vehicle in work or SCHOOL parking lots during the hunting seasons without a firearm in it.
    This should qualify for the whistle blowers protection clause.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    PM me the number, and I'll call

    They can't fire me!!!!
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    Last edited by baldp8; 03-20-2012 at 07:28 PM.
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    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’— Thomas Jefferson

    Member of NRA, GOA, WCI

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    I would think it would be an easy arguement that the business disarmed you as soon as you got out of your car (on their property)...thus, the liability coming into play.

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baldp8 View Post
    My company posted but I basically threw a fit and refused to continue to work there if they posted my particular building. None of my employees wanted our location posted due to the nature of what we do and where we do it. I won, believe it or not, because our CEO had been listening to our HR nonsense and had not been given the facts. In the course of our discussion I brought up the liability issue several times and was told repeatedly they had no more liability than they did before. I told them I hope we never have to test their assumption, but I have searched and really cannot find anything that says they are liable for their employees protection. Almost all of the law sites state that they should not have increased liability. Do you have a link I could use to show that they do? It would be very helpful.
    I would simply bring to your employers attention that OSHA requires employers to provide a "safe work environment". That would depend on what constitutes a safe environment. Different work places will have different situations and requirements. I am sure that even a mid grade lawyer would be able to use that in a civil liability case
    Last edited by bigdaddy1; 11-15-2011 at 08:41 AM.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    So now they are saying we cannot carry offsite while on the clock too..

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    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’— Thomas Jefferson

    Member of NRA, GOA, WCI

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    They cannot ban the property, 175.60 (15m) (16).

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...tatutes/175/60
    The statutes you cited are not relevent to his question.

    943.13(1m)(b) would apply, not 175.60(15m), 175.60(16).

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...943/II/13/1m/b

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    The statutes you cited are not relevent to his question.

    943.13(1m)(b) would apply, not 175.60(15m), 175.60(16).

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...943/II/13/1m/b
    ...probably a good reason why I'm not a lawyer...
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    ...probably a good reason why I'm not a lawyer...
    ....or your parents didn't name you Paul Fischer.....

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