ND: Man shoots self to death in Spotsy grocery store parking lot

2a4all · Nov 14, 2011

DocWalker said:
I would have to do some serious research to come up with some numbers that are not just made up but while I do that you need to get a Tauras, Berretta, Smith and Wesson and put them on safe and try and pull the trigger. Then get a Springfield 45 ACP or another gun with a web safety on the back of the pistol grip and without pushing in the web safety pull the trigger. Then grab a glock and pull the trigger, I bet the only trigger you can pull is the Glock Trigger as the safety is on the trigger.

I'm niether for or against Glocks, I have just seen more accidental discharge injury's of people carrying Glocks than any other brand. Guess I should have been keeping a log for the last 20 years.

I do think it is the idiot with the weapon and not the brand of weapon that matters, a Glock in someone that is careful is just as safe as any other brand. What these self inflicted gunshots have in common is they all have an idiot that puts a loaded gun in his pants without a holster to secure it properly.

I carry a S&W M&P40c, which has no safety (like a Glock), with one in the chamber. I carry it cross-draw (lefty, so it's on my right hip) in a fitted 3-slot belt holster which covers the trigger. The only time the pistol leaves the holster is to fire it or clean it. Otherwise, it stays in the holster 24/7. I've heard that the guy who designed the trigger used to work for Glock.

MSC 45ACP · Nov 14, 2011

DocWalker said:
Option on the amount of injuries I have seen from self inflicted accidents involving Glocks as opposed to other pistols.

Pistols that have a thumb safety that you have to flip with your thumb or a web safety in conjuction with the trigger safety. My personnal observation is when a Glock is carried loaded in your pocket without a holster it is much easier to accidentally pull the trigger back than if you had to either flip a safety by the slide or pull the trigger and push the web safety at the same time.

I have seen more accidental discharges from Glocks than other brands when someone doesn't carry it properly.

Please, Please PLEASE... It is almost NEVER an ACCIDENTAL discharge... Negligent Discharge (ND) is usually the most accurate term.
After 25 years as a small arms instructor, I can STILL count the number of "accidental" discharges
(legitimate malfunction of the weapon or the ammunition, NOT caused by negligent maintenance or improper cleaning of the firearm) on one hand.
Yes.... Less than FIVE.

I don't think this would have happened if he had been carrying it in a decent holster in good condition. I have great faith in my SERPA holsters, even though I've heard some "stories" about them, too. If you look hard enough, you can always find "dirt" on something on the Internet.

A Glock is no less safe than a revolver. You pull the trigger, expect the gun to go "boom".
Smith & Wesson: The Original "point and click" interface!
Glocks don't just fire by themselves. It still takes a deliberate pull of the trigger to make them fire. We all know this.

Unfortunately, this Darwin Award Winner's family may become the newest members of the Brady Bunch. :-(

coondog22554 · Nov 14, 2011

DocWalker said:
I would have to do some serious research to come up with some numbers that are not just made up but while I do that you need to get a Tauras, Berretta, Smith and Wesson and put them on safe and try and pull the trigger. Then get a Springfield 45 ACP or another gun with a web safety on the back of the pistol grip and without pushing in the web safety pull the trigger. Then grab a glock and pull the trigger, I bet the only trigger you can pull is the Glock Trigger as the safety is on the trigger.

I'm niether for or against Glocks, I have just seen more accidental discharge injury's of people carrying Glocks than any other brand. Guess I should have been keeping a log for the last 20 years.

I do think it is the idiot with the weapon and not the brand of weapon that matters, a Glock in someone that is careful is just as safe as any other brand. What these self inflicted gunshots have in common is they all have an idiot that puts a loaded gun in his pants without a holster to secure it properly.

I can see the ad campaign now...

GLOCK The official handgun of Mensa!

I feel smarter already.

Blk97F150 · Nov 14, 2011

DocWalker said:
I have seen more accidental discharges from Glocks than other brands when someone doesn't carry it properly.

I'm sure that has nothing to do with the popularity of Glocks vs. other brands, huh?

thebigsd · Nov 14, 2011

Unfortunately, this is a sad incident that was completely avoidable. I don't own any Glocks but from my knowledge of them, they are reliable and safe guns. His gun should have been in a good holster and not in his waistband. My thoughts are with his family.

peter nap · Nov 14, 2011

thebigsd said:
Unfortunately, this is a sad incident that was completely avoidable. I don't own any Glocks but from my knowledge of them, they are reliable and safe guns. His gun should have been in a good holster and not in his waistband. My thoughts are with his family.

+1

Dreamer · Nov 14, 2011

ProShooter said:
Cite?

Glocks have 3 mechanical safeties which are only disengaged together when the trigger is pulled.....just like many, many other guns. A discharge can occur with any gun not carried in a safe manner which protects the trigger guard area.

Saying that the Glocks have any sort of positive safety is like saying that a Porsche 911 Turbo with the brake pedal removed is a safe vehicle.

As long as you don't hit the "go button" on either device, they are both perfectly safe...

All that said, I own and regularly carry a Glock 36--ALWAYS in a proper holster, and most of the time in a Serpa (sometimes in a Galco IWB, which I replace every few years if it even STARTS to look worn, or feel too soft)...

JamesB · Nov 15, 2011

Dreamer said:
Saying that the Glocks have any sort of positive safety is like saying that a Porsche 911 Turbo with the brake pedal removed is a safe vehicle.

As long as you don't hit the "go button" on either device, they are both perfectly safe...

--snip

Ok, I think I almost understand what you're getting at here...nope.

It's a little more like a Porsche 911 without a passenger-side rear-view mirror. It has two other mirrors, do you really need that one? It functions just fine without it. If the operator knows that it isn't there and acts accordingly (turn the head for a lane check) everything will be just fine.

(Do Porsche 911's come with that mirror? Hell, now I gotta go look it up.)

Lincoln7 · Nov 15, 2011

gm2max said:
thats a shame... This is why i use a Blackhawk Serpa holster. It covers the trigger area completely!

This is the holster your SHOULDN'T be carrying in if you want to reduce the chanced on a negligent discharge. It utilizes your trigger finger to disengage the retention system. No thank you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE

sidestreet · Nov 15, 2011

A terrible thing to have happened, especially in front of the kids...,

but when I first heard this story on the evening news, my first thought was for the family, my first comment to my daughter was "Ten to one it was a Glock". Even in my groggy state (produced by a medical procedure earlier in the day which left me for the first time in my life when I was not completely FOS, and to which I have witnesses, testimonials, and a DVD) my perceptions of Glocks proved true.

Before the flames start, just let me reiterate what I have always said about Glocks, I think they are good pistols, I like the way I shoot with them, they are ergonomically designed, they are fairly dependable. I do not think they are great pistols, and I believe they require EXTRA care when cleaning, storing, and even more especially in handling, more so than a number of other fairly similar pistols. Properly handled, the Glocks are as good as most any other firearm, and I'm not saying that the Glock or it's design is the only reason for this accident, but it is part of the equation. Like so many accidents, there may be one or two very critical factors that ultimately spelled doom, but more often there seem to be a number of factors involved that add up in the end. The same as my first fatalities in my former job. There were a number of things that happened that night (more or less out of the ordinary) that combined to put us and the victims at a certain place at a certain time, yet it was the decision made by one of the victims at that moment that ultimately and most directly led to her and another's fate.

This is my opinion only, but it has been formed by the perspective I have gained through my experiences, things that I have read, and incidents that others have related to me. Now, this is just my perspective, and it's not scientific, but I'll still take those odds, ten to one.

My thoughts and prayers are with the family..., and anyone else who uses a Glock.

sidestreet

Jeremiah 29 vs. 11-13

we are not equal, we will never be equal, but we must be relentless.

wylde007 · Nov 15, 2011

Lincoln7 said:
This is the holster your SHOULDN'T be carrying in if you want to reduce the chanced on a negligent discharge. It utilizes your trigger finger to disengage the retention system. No thank you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE

So because you don't exercise proper trigger control you blame the holster?

The SERPA CQC is a near-on perfect retention holster. If you properly depress the release then your finger should naturally align outside of the trigger well and in exact position, pointed downrange and down the barrel just like with any other holster.

If you do it differently (like the idiot in your "video") you're doing it wrong and that's not the holster's fault.

I remember a few years back there was an uproar about SERPA CQC and permit classes or competition shooting matches and they were disallowed because one "instructor" had a ND in his class. It turns out he was full of BS and the whole thing got blown WAY out of proportion. It took months to get to the truth in that instance but it turned a lot of people off to the CQC for absolutely no reason but one jack-leg's disposition.

RetiredOC · Nov 15, 2011

would it be fair to say that we see more glock ADs and NDs because the Glock is a pretty popular handgun amongst thugs, rappers, cops, and regular joe's like us? and maybe glocks are decent, reliable, safe handguns?

A crude comparison here:

if 999 red cars are driving on the road and 1 green car is driving are we more likely to see accidents involving red cars or green cars?

think about it.

altajava · Nov 15, 2011

DocWalker said:
I would have to do some serious research to come up with some numbers that are not just made up but while I do that you need to get a Tauras, Berretta, Smith and Wesson and put them on safe and try and pull the trigger. Then get a Springfield 45 ACP or another gun with a web safety on the back of the pistol grip and without pushing in the web safety pull the trigger. Then grab a glock and pull the trigger, I bet the only trigger you can pull is the Glock Trigger as the safety is on the trigger.

I'm niether for or against Glocks, I have just seen more accidental discharge injury's of people carrying Glocks than any other brand. Guess I should have been keeping a log for the last 20 years.

I do think it is the idiot with the weapon and not the brand of weapon that matters, a Glock in someone that is careful is just as safe as any other brand. What these self inflicted gunshots have in common is they all have an idiot that puts a loaded gun in his pants without a holster to secure it properly.

I used to own a Beretta that you could pull the trigger with minimal extra effort while the safety was on

.

DocWalker · Nov 15, 2011

altajava said:
I used to own a Beretta that you could pull the trigger with minimal extra effort while the safety was on.

Not a weapon I would want if the parts didn't work. It could be a knife, gun, bat, or car; what matters is how the owner of the item uses and controls it.

DocWalker · Nov 15, 2011

MSC 45ACP said:
Please, Please PLEASE... It is almost NEVER an ACCIDENTAL discharge... Negligent Discharge (ND) is usually the most accurate term.
After 25 years as a small arms instructor, I can STILL count the number of "accidental" discharges
(legitimate malfunction of the weapon or the ammunition, NOT caused by negligent maintenance or improper cleaning of the firearm) on one hand.
Yes.... Less than FIVE.

I don't think this would have happened if he had been carrying it in a decent holster in good condition. I have great faith in my SERPA holsters, even though I've heard some "stories" about them, too. If you look hard enough, you can always find "dirt" on something on the Internet.

A Glock is no less safe than a revolver. You pull the trigger, expect the gun to go "boom".
Smith & Wesson: The Original "point and click" interface!
Glocks don't just fire by themselves. It still takes a deliberate pull of the trigger to make them fire. We all know this.

Unfortunately, this Darwin Award Winner's family may become the newest members of the Brady Bunch. :-(

Ok you got me a Negligent Discharge, it is like when I started in EMS you could say "car accident" on your report. Now you have to say "motor vehicle collision", probably due to lawyers and insurance companies.

peter nap · Nov 15, 2011

sidestreet said:
but when I first heard this story on the evening news, my first thought was for the family, my first comment to my daughter was "Ten to one it was a Glock". Even in my groggy state (produced by a medical procedure earlier in the day which left me for the first time in my life when I was not completely FOS, and to which I have witnesses, testimonials, and a DVD) my perceptions of Glocks proved true.

Before the flames start, just let me reiterate what I have always said about Glocks, I think they are good pistols, I like the way I shoot with them, they are ergonomically designed, they are fairly dependable. I do not think they are great pistols, and I believe they require EXTRA care when cleaning, storing, and even more especially in handling, more so than a number of other fairly similar pistols. Properly handled, the Glocks are as good as most any other firearm, and I'm not saying that the Glock or it's design is the only reason for this accident, but it is part of the equation. Like so many accidents, there may be one or two very critical factors that ultimately spelled doom, but more often there seem to be a number of factors involved that add up in the end. The same as my first fatalities in my former job. There were a number of things that happened that night (more or less out of the ordinary) that combined to put us and the victims at a certain place at a certain time, yet it was the decision made by one of the victims at that moment that ultimately and most directly led to her and another's fate.

This is my opinion only, but it has been formed by the perspective I have gained through my experiences, things that I have read, and incidents that others have related to me. Now, this is just my perspective, and it's not scientific, but I'll still take those odds, ten to one.

My thoughts and prayers are with the family..., and anyone else who uses a Glock.

sidestreet

Jeremiah 29 vs. 11-13

we are not equal, we will never be equal, but we must be relentless.

Well said Sidestreet!

I like to make fun of Glocks but I agree they are dependable, well made guns. The problem is that many people buy them and don't use them enough or never try to train with them. This makes them a potential time bomb. Police are particularly bad. Many don't like guns and others have the opinion that the piddling amount of training they get makes them experts.

I did a lot of talking to keep my wife from buying one and even had to tell the salesman at Greentops to show us guns and keep his opinion to himself. Thankfully, she listened to me.

Back to the subject...we should be expressing sympathy for the victim and especially his family. This will stay with his kids for the rest of their lives and I'm sure we lost some future followers. They may even become anti's.

The debate over Glocks, Serpa's, best caliber for Deer and the theory of Atlantis will go on long after we're dead.

The Wolfhound · Nov 16, 2011

As I attempted to respond to the story on the TV5 website....

This is a double tragedy. First an unnecessary loss of life, a tragedy for his family. Second is that a reporter reporting in the Commonwealth of Virginia thinks there are registered gun owners in the Commonwealth of Virginia. I mourn the death of Journalism. It could have done so much good had it lived but alas it died several years ago.

MSC 45ACP · Nov 16, 2011

wylde007 said:
So because you don't exercise proper trigger control you blame the holster?

The SERPA CQC is a near-on perfect retention holster. If you properly depress the release then your finger should naturally align outside of the trigger well and in exact position, pointed downrange and down the barrel just like with any other holster.

If you do it differently (like the idiot in your "video") you're doing it wrong and that's not the holster's fault.

I remember a few years back there was an uproar about SERPA CQC and permit classes or competition shooting matches and they were disallowed because one "instructor" had a ND in his class. It turns out he was full of BS and the whole thing got blown WAY out of proportion. It took months to get to the truth in that instance but it turned a lot of people off to the CQC for absolutely no reason but one jack-leg's disposition.

+1, Wylde.

If you use the holster PROPERLY, there isn't a thing wrong with it! I was also quite annoyed when the story came out with an "instructor" that had an ND with one. He was a bonehead that wasn't using the equipment properly. SERPAs are very reliable IF properly maintained AND if you are properly trained in their use. They aren't "idiot-proof" and neither are Glocks.

longwatch · Nov 17, 2011

A preventable tragedy, according to officials the deceased was carrying tucked inside his waist band without a holster.
http://www.wtvr.com/news/wtvr-father-had-gun-tucked-into-pants-waistband-20111116,0,1545282.story

My condolences to his family and let us learn from this and work to prevent it from happening to anyone else.

ixtow · Nov 17, 2011

+1 for kydex

It has also not been determined whether the man was a licensed gun owner

You have to get a gun ownership license in VA? Surely, the author jests...
Perhaps this hasn't been determined, because the concept doesn't exist?
It has not yet been determined if my face is a spatula.... The question is too ridiculous to respond to... We're still awaiting comment on whether or not my face is a spatula...

You can't blame Glock for the type of owners they attract... I'm not saying all Glock owners are idiots. Certainly not so, I am one. ;-)

But, when an idiot wants a gun, "I gotsta me a glock, dawg! Dat sh!t be tight!" is usually how the notion is conveyed... It seems that morons love Glocks... Which is partially understandable, they were designed for Cops...

ND: Man shoots self to death in Spotsy grocery store parking lot

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