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Thread: Bar Owner/Workers OCing on the clock

  1. #1
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    Bar Owner/Workers OCing on the clock

    Gotta question for the much more educated than I. My buddy owns a local bar and due to a recent outbrak of crimes he now carries openly while inside as well as one of the bartenders. Of course I'm all for it. But he was telling me the loops he had to go through to make that happen. He said since he was the owner it was OK but for the bartender he had to list her as a manager and pay $300 fee to the ABC people. He also said that when he spoke to ALE they told him that the firearms could not have a round chambered and must be in some sort of retention holster. I personally have never came across any of these laws before. I'm having trouble trying to find any laws that are even close to what he was talking about. Anybody out there have any idea, or can at least point me in the right direction? Just wanna make sure he aint being screwed ya know?

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    Page 21 of the North Carolina Firearms Laws. If you give an email address I can send you the PDF of the laws. Don't know how to post it here. Plus I'm on my phone not a computer.
    Walk softly and carry a large caliber.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by aosailor View Post
    Gotta question for the much more educated than I. My buddy owns a local bar and due to a recent outbrak of crimes he now carries openly while inside as well as one of the bartenders. Of course I'm all for it. But he was telling me the loops he had to go through to make that happen. He said since he was the owner it was OK but for the bartender he had to list her as a manager and pay $300 fee to the ABC people. He also said that when he spoke to ALE they told him that the firearms could not have a round chambered and must be in some sort of retention holster. I personally have never came across any of these laws before. I'm having trouble trying to find any laws that are even close to what he was talking about. Anybody out there have any idea, or can at least point me in the right direction? Just wanna make sure he aint being screwed ya know?
    I didn't think you could carry cc or oc in a bar in NC..here is the link to the NC OC pamphlet:

    https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=...fjnl_dbj&hl=en
    Last edited by spiderjohn; 11-14-2011 at 06:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spiderjohn View Post
    I didn't think you could carry cc or oc in a bar in NC..here is the link to the NC OC pamphlet:

    https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=...fjnl_dbj&hl=en
    regular customers/citizens can't but this is the bar owner. Private property laws come into effect. so to me this whole area is grey...

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by aosailor View Post
    regular customers/citizens can't but this is the bar owner. Private property laws come into effect. so to me this whole area is grey...
    Here is more info..looks like owner can and those w/permission but i'd strongly suggest consulting a lawyer...looks like a grey area from page 23 of the attached pdf:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    here are the laws..

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by aosailor View Post
    He said since he was the owner it was OK but for the bartender he had to list her as a manager and pay $300 fee to the ABC people.
    ALE is notoriously corrupt in NC. I would consult a lawyer about that fee. Nowhere in either the NC Firearms Statutes OR the ALE rules and regulations is there:

    1) a requirement that someone other than the owner who wants to carry must be a "manager",
    2) any "permitting fee" for an authorized employee of a private business to carry on-premise, or
    3) ANY requirements, regulations, tests, or certifications required to carry on private property if you have the owner's permission as an employee.

    So unless the ALE folks conned this bar owner into registering his bartender as a "security guard" (which does have a fee, and all sorts of BS paperwork, but he'd ALSO have to be bonded, licensed and certified, so I doubt that is what happened...) it seems to me that the ALE agents actually robbed your friend of $300, and perhaps need to be reported to the AG for extortion...

    But he might want to consult a lawyer first...


    Quote Originally Posted by aosailor View Post
    He also said that when he spoke to ALE they told him that the firearms could not have a round chambered and must be in some sort of retention holster.
    This is simply BS. There are NO laws, regulations, rules, or stipulations to carrying on private property. Nothing about the "condition" you carry the firearm in, nothing about holsters, nothing about licenses, permits or training--if an employee is just a regular employee (NOT a Security Guard) and the owner wants to let them carry, they can. Period, end of discussion.

    The only reference to firearms in the ALE rules book are to the prohibition of carry outlines in NCGS § 14-269.3. No extra rules are added, and no special provisions, requirements, stipulations or fees are mentioned. I used to be a night clerk at a hotel that has a "nightclub" next to the lobby--I had a LOT of long boring nights to read through the ALE manual in the course of a year's employment there.

    It is my opinion that your ALE agents are blowing VERY expensive smoke up you're friend's backside.

    Consult an attorney--ASAP!!!


    BTW, there is no "gray area" with regards to owners and authorized employees carrying (open or concealed) on the private property of a privately owned business. The Statute is pretty clear--it gives a plainly-worded, crystal-clear exemption to the OWNERS an any employees they authorize to carry in certain "prohibited places" like bars, clubs, or venues that charge admission. There is NO gray area. The law is pretty cut-and-dried on this one--and the wording is plain enough that even a TSA employee should be able to understand it...

    N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-269.3

    The following are also
    included in this exemption:

    a. The owner or lessee of the premises or business;

    b. A person participating in the event, if he/she is carrying a gun, rifle,
    or pistol with the permission of the owner, lessee, person, or
    organization sponsoring the event; and

    c. A person registered or hired as a security guard by the owner, lessee,
    person, or organization sponsoring the event.
    Last edited by Dreamer; 11-16-2011 at 09:29 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  7. #7
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    "aosailor",

    after a comprehensive search of all the ALE-related laws, rules, and guidelines, I found that not only was your friend lied to and duped out of $300, but the words "firearm", "gun", "handgun", "carry", and "concealed" are not even IN those documents in the context of employees (or anyone else) carrying in an establishment that serves alcohol...

    http://www.ncabc.com/boards/reports.aspx?folder=7

    I'd suggest your friend familiarize himself with Chapter 18b of the NC General Statute, and then branch off from there to the ALE-specific FAQs and Guidelines...

    And he needs to get a LAWYER immediately--he has been defrauded by a government official under color of law, which is potentially a FEDERAL violation of his civil rights...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    "aosailor",

    after a comprehensive search of all the ALE-related laws, rules, and guidelines, I found that not only was your friend lied to and duped out of $300, but the words "firearm", "gun", "handgun", "carry", and "concealed" are not even IN those documents in the context of employees (or anyone else) carrying in an establishment that serves alcohol...

    http://www.ncabc.com/boards/reports.aspx?folder=7

    I'd suggest your friend familiarize himself with Chapter 18b of the NC General Statute, and then branch off from there to the ALE-specific FAQs and Guidelines...

    And he needs to get a LAWYER immediately--he has been defrauded by a government official under color of law, which is potentially a FEDERAL violation of his civil rights...
    Wow... Thanks for the info! I knew all this sounded fishy. I'll let him know about this and see if he wants to fight the injustice. Thanks again! I knew I'd get my answers here!

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