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Thread: me and my wife were talking...

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    me and my wife were talking...

    And here is a scenario we are curious about.

    First, let's say an officer pulls me over for an out tail light or speeding. Let's say that both my wife and I are carrying. (we both have permits) We have chosen NOT to volunteer that information to the officer. The stop proceeds as normal, but let's say towards the end, the officer asks if we have any weapons in the car. So, here are our questions.

    First, I won't ever lie to a cop. So, I would tell him that yes, we have weapons in the car, but we both have our CCW permits.

    -Would you also tell the officer where the weapons are located?
    -At that point, is the officer allowed to ask us both to step out of the car in order to disarm us?
    -Is the officer allowed to search us or our vehicle?


    Same scenario but only I am armed, and my wife is not, so I tell the officer I am armed and am a CCW license holder after he asks if we have weapons in the car.

    -If the officer has me step out in order to disarm me, is the officer allowed to ask my wife to step out and search her?

  2. #2
    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    You can try the Brass Magnet method: "Nunya bizznesss!!!"

    lol

    I'm playing around but as was stated in the other thread, you can either answer the question truthfully, or do as others may where you simply refuse to answer the probing questions (any contraband in the vehicle?)....

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    Regular Member msteinhilber's Avatar
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    If he's not making a lawful request to see your CCW license why bother offering up any further information when not needed?

    I've been pulled over a couple of times recently, once for a taillight and once for a headlamp. Both times I had the usual "do you have any alcohol, drugs, or weapons in the vehicle" and both times my response was along this line "I have nothing in my vehicle or on my person that is in violation of the law and I do not consent to any searches". The time I was pulled over the the headlamp the officer tried to flex his authority with me, though I suspect he did so because upon approaching my window he shined his light in my rear hatch of my SUV and likely took note of several bags that have a bit of a tactical appearance. After giving him that answer I was asked to step out of the vehicle, I complied and exited my vehicle with the keys and locked it afterwards. He had me stand behind my vehicle for about 10 minutes then told me I should get my headlamp fixed and that I was free to go.

    Maybe it would be easier to just be up front that you have firearms in the vehicle but I take a firm stance on not offering up information that I do not have to, it's none of their business.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    One way to proceed, though I like the answer from the poster above, is to say "Am I required by law to answer?" Since there is no probable cause, he can't say 'yes'.

    Turn each question of his into a question from you, with a 'I prefer to remain silent and consent to no searches of my vehicle or person...' as an out if you run out.

    Lock your car behind you, etc.

    Check state and local laws first and always run your recorder if the law allows.
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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    One way to proceed, though I like the answer from the poster above, is to say "Am I required by law to answer?" Since there is no probable cause, he can't say 'yes'.
    Sure he can. He can lie his arse off. Police are allowed to lie. That's like a drug dealer asking everyone that buys from him "are you a cop" under the mistaken impression that they have to say yes.


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    My question isn't about what I should necessarily say or not say. I'm asking more of, what does the officer actually have legal authority to do.

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    As has been already stated: the proper answer is "I have nothing illegal on my person or in the vehicle and I will not consent to a search". If they want to push it, tell them to get a warrant, and they will be free to look anywhere and for anything the warrant addresses.. no warrant, no search.

    I find it very interesting with all these cops that want to seach your car? Maybe I'm just too old now, but I have never been asked if I was armed, asked for my CPL (I normally OC), been involuntarily disarmed, or had any officer ask to search my vehicle...where do these people exist? I know, it happens, I've watched dummies, and a couple episodes of cops (refuse to watch cops any more)

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwguy11 View Post
    My question isn't about what I should necessarily say or not say. I'm asking more of, what does the officer actually have legal authority to do.
    The "quick ccw question" thread has the answers you're looking for, I think.
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    Founder's Club Member scruff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msteinhilber View Post
    ... both times my response was along this line "I have nothing in my vehicle or on my person that is in violation of the law and I do not consent to any searches".
    One way to proceed, though I like the answer from the poster above, is to say "Am I required by law to answer?"
    Great suggestions.

    Diplomacy is definitely an art. A good diplomat, whether they're a politician, a CEO, or a gun owner, can politely answer a question without saying anything, can expose the questioner's agenda with an innocent-sounding reply, or can stab someone in the back with a smile and a handshake. I like your reply, but I'd keep it friendly - "No, I don't have anything illegal in the car", said with a smile. What's he gonna come back with? "I didn't ASK you if you have anything illegal. DO YOU HAVE ANY ALCOHOL, DRUGS OR WEAPONS?" "Sir, I can assure you, I don't have any illegal items in the car with me." You haven't lied, you appear to be somewhat cooperative, and you're forcing him to give up or make himself look like a dick.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    If the stop has been explained to you as a burned-out light and the officer is finished ether writing the citation or giving you the warning to get it fixed, then the stop is over. His suddenly turning t into a fishing expedition violates your 4th Amendment rights. This is why carrying a voice recorder - presuming it is legal in your jurisdiction - is a good dea. Cop tells you he is done. You clarify by stating you understand you are free to go (do not ask, just state you understand you are and let him state otherwise if he wants to) and in fact go on your way.

    I'm not an expert on your new CCW law but I do not see a mandatory inform clause in it. I am not aware of a mandatory inform clause if you are OCing. Based on presumptions made from those "facts" I see nothing to be gained by informing the cop of your status unless he is ordering you out of the vehicle or some other instruction requires you to reach near your legally carried firearm.

    When the cop is finished doing whatever is related to the reason he told you he stopped you, and then starts fishing with questions about carrying drugs or bazookas or atomic bombs he is just looking for an excuse to search you and your car in the hopes of finding anything he can. Do not fall for the trap. Tell ghim you understand you are now free to go, and then go unless he positively tells you otherwise. If he starts the "If you don't have anything to hide ..." routine, just keep repeating that you understand that you are free to go and lawfully and safely pull away. Let the cop commit to creating a second stop - probably without RAS/PC. If it is legal to record, you should have been doing so ever since he signalled you to pull over (recorder running before he gets to your vehicle).

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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    I find it very interesting with all these cops that want to seach your car? Maybe I'm just too old now, but I have never been asked if I was armed, asked for my CPL (I normally OC), been involuntarily disarmed, or had any officer ask to search my vehicle...where do these people exist? I know, it happens, I've watched dummies, and a couple episodes of cops (refuse to watch cops any more)
    I haven't had this happen, the situation is hypothetical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    The "quick ccw question" thread has the answers you're looking for, I think.
    edit: answered one of my own questions.


    But, if we do tell an officer we are a CCW license holder and we are armed, does the officer have the authority to ask us to step out of the car and disarm us and/or search us?
    Last edited by bmwguy11; 11-14-2011 at 10:37 PM.

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    You are asking the wrong question OP, the kind of questions that can seriously get you into trouble.


    In an encounter you should forget about what the LEO is allowed to do and what he isn't because it virtually doesn't matter unless you are willing to resists with any force necessary which can never end good for you.

    No, in an encounter what you want to be thinking about is this:
    - "How do I assert my rights?"
    and
    - "What course of action will secure my well being the most?"

    And asserting your rights is not the same as resisting. So my advice? Learn the law, answer what you are legally required to and then shut up. If he escalates, never resists and always, always assert your 4th and 5th amendment protected rights.

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwguy11 View Post
    edit: answered one of my own questions.


    But, if we do tell an officer we are a CCW license holder and we are armed, does the officer have the authority to ask us to step out of the car and disarm us and/or search us?
    IANAL and could be wrong but basically, I think once asked, you are required to provide both you CCW license and a WI Photo ID (drivers license or state ID). And yes, I also think that the LEO can disarm you (based on protecting himself...). These are both covered in the brochure that came with my CCW license. Also something about the LEO has to be operating in an official line of duty...

    Cites to follow....

    Cite... Act 35 - Page 7 reads....

    (2g) CARRYING A CONCEALED WEAPON; POSSESSION
    AND DISPLAY OF LICENSE DOCUMENT OR AUTHORIZATION.
    (a) A licensee or an out−of−state licensee may carry a
    concealed weapon anywhere in this state except as provided
    under subs. (15m) and (16) and ss. 943.13 (1m) (c)
    and 948.605 (2) (b) 1r.
    (b) Unless the licensee or out−of−state licensee is carrying
    a concealed weapon in a manner described under s.
    941.23 (2) (e), a licensee shall have with him or her his
    or her license document and photographic identification
    card and an out−of−state licensee shall have with him or
    her his or her out−of−state license and photographic identification
    card at all times during which he or she is carrying
    a concealed weapon.
    (c) Unless the licensee or out−of−state licensee is carrying
    a concealed weapon in a manner described under s.
    941.23 (2) (e), a licensee who is carrying a concealed
    weapon shall display his or her license document and
    photographic identification card and an out−of−state
    licensee who is carrying a concealed weapon shall display
    his or her out−of−state license and photographic
    identification card to a law enforcement officer upon the
    request of the law enforcement officer while the law
    2011 Wisconsin Act 35 − 8 − 2011 Senate Bill 93
    enforcement officer is acting in an official capacity and
    with lawful authority.
    Outdoorsman1
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 11-15-2011 at 11:52 AM.
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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Also.. continued frommy post above.... Could not find anything specific in Act 35 regarding LEO taking posession of your firearm during a stop... Just this in the DOJ FQA...

    What should I do if I have a CCW license and I have contact with a law enforcement officer while in possession of a concealed weapon?
    While the law does not impose any specific requirements other than displaying a photo ID and CCW license upon request of a law enforcement officer, there are some recommended actions you should take when you have contact with a law enforcement officer. Contact can include a traffic or other stop and situations where you contact an officer or when an officer approaches you for information or otherwise. If you have a CCW license and you have contact with a law enforcement officer while carrying a concealed weapon, you should do the following:
    CCW FAQ 10/20/11
    - 27 -
    1. Immediately tell the officer that you're carrying a concealed weapon and where it's located.
    2. Keep your hands where the officer can see them.
    3. Cooperate fully with the officer.
    4. Don't make any quick movements, especially toward the weapon.
    5. If you're in a vehicle:
     Roll down your window and place your hands in plain view on the steering wheel
     If it is at night, turn on the vehicle's dome light.
     Calmly tell the officer you have a CCW license and that you have a weapon with you. Ask the officer if they have particular instructions concerning the weapon.
     Do not touch or attempt to touch the weapon unless specifically told to do so by the officer.
     Do not leave your vehicle unless specifically told to do so by the officer.
    In certain circumstances, a law enforcement officer may ask to take temporary possession of the weapon or may seize the weapon during interaction with the individual to ensure the safety of the officer and others or to secure the weapon as evidence. The officer will return the weapon at the end of the stop unless the individual is placed under arrest for a violation of the law that allows the weapon to be seized.


    Outdoorsman1
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

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    Member: Silver Lake Sportsmans Club
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  16. #16
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    IANAL and could be wrong but basically, I think once asked, you are required to provide both you CCW license and a WI Photo ID (drivers license or state ID).[snip]
    Just remember that they have to make the request with lawful authority (which effectively makes it a demand) or the request is just that; a request:

    941.23 (2) (e), a licensee who is carrying a concealed
    weapon shall display his or her license document and
    photographic identification card and an out−of−state
    licensee who is carrying a concealed weapon shall display
    his or her out−of−state license and photographic
    identification card to a law enforcement officer upon the
    request of the law enforcement officer while the law
    2011 Wisconsin Act 35 − 8 − 2011 Senate Bill 93
    enforcement officer is acting in an official capacity and
    with lawful authority.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 11-15-2011 at 12:04 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran Flipper's Avatar
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    Once they get your gun a trace will be run on it, you and your gun will be in the "system" and the ghouls will have another "crime gun" statistic.
    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
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    Okay, so you continue to be silent to the officer's demand to see your CCW license. What are his options? Can you be arrested for failure to provide the license? Is it just a $25 fine for not supplying it? How can he know, by checking DOT records?

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scruff View Post
    great suggestions.

    Diplomacy is definitely an art. A good diplomat, whether they're a politician, a ceo, or a gun owner, can politely answer a question without saying anything, can expose the questioner's agenda with an innocent-sounding reply, or can stab someone in the back with a smile and a handshake. I like your reply, but i'd keep it friendly - "no, i don't have anything illegal in the car", said with a smile. What's he gonna come back with? "i didn't ask you if you have anything illegal. Do you have any alcohol, drugs or weapons?" "sir, i can assure you, i don't have any illegal items in the car with me." you haven't lied, you appear to be somewhat cooperative, and you're forcing him to give up or make himself look like a dick.
    never talk to the police.
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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by technician View Post
    Okay, so you continue to be silent to the officer's demand to see your CCW license. What are his options? Can you be arrested for failure to provide the license? Is it just a $25 fine for not supplying it? How can he know, by checking DOT records?
    Your question is too vague. It all depends on the situation which was talked about in this thread and the "quick question" thread down lower on the page. What are the circumstances?
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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwguy11 View Post
    edit: answered one of my own questions.


    But, if we do tell an officer we are a CCW license holder and we are armed, does the officer have the authority to ask us to step out of the car and disarm us and/or search us?
    He can demand you step out of the car and disarm you, he may even pat you down, but not search you.

    A legal search cannot occur, unless he has your consent, Probable Cause or a Warrant.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 11-15-2011 at 02:00 PM.

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    Your question is too vague. It all depends on the situation which was talked about in this thread and the "quick question" thread down lower on the page. What are the circumstances?
    Let's throw out "cop on fishing expedition" and go with whatever would allow a "lawful" request construct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    He can demand you step out of the car and disarm you, he may even pat you down, but not search you.

    A legal search cannot occur, unless he has your consent, Probable Cause or a Warrant.
    Got it. Not that I would ever resist an officer, even if I felt what they were doing was unlawful, resisting on the spot isn't going to help anything.

  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by technician View Post
    Let's throw out "cop on fishing expedition" and go with whatever would allow a "lawful" request construct.
    Basically, if he knows you have a weapon you lawfully need to comply with his demand to see your papers. Let's say that you are OC in a place that only allows OC with the CCL. In that case you must provide it if asked. Similarly, if your CCW was badly concealed and he, or someone else saw it, his demand would be with lawful authority. See below for the arguable point.

    If you are OC in some place that it is lawful to OC without a CCL he would not be asking with lawful authority as the license is not needed.

    If a cop has RAS (Reasonable articuable suspicion) that you have or are about to commit a crime he can search you for weapons. Then he'll know if you have one or not anyway so if he has RAS, he pretty much has lawful authority.

    In a traffic stop, a cop only really has cause to cite you for whatever he pulled you over for. Anything beyond that is fishing. He may ask you all kinds of questions and depending on how you answer may develop RAS which is why it's important to not go along with the fishing.

    Arguably, since people holding CCL's are in the minority, it may give a cop RAS if he believes you are carrying a weapon just because most people can't if it's concealed or you are in a place that only allows it with a CCL.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 11-15-2011 at 02:32 PM.
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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    Sure he can. He can lie his arse off. Police are allowed to lie. That's like a drug dealer asking everyone that buys from him "are you a cop" under the mistaken impression that they have to say yes.


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    OK, I don't know for sure, but I -believe- there are some things that the LEO doesn't normally lie about, and that question "Am I legally required to answer...' is one of them as is 'Am I free to go'. I've no doubt people have been tricked, told they're allowed to go, but then shot in the back as 'escaping', but I think that is quite a rare occurrence. Generally, I think what they lie about (besides making up 'laws' on the fly) is 'Your buddy told us you did it...' and so forth. I could be wrong so your point has merit.
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