Shoot, don't shoot scenario

fire suppressor · Nov 15, 2011

Excuse me everyone but I've been thinking again...

Scenario:
You are inside a gas station pre-paying for your tank of gas, you, the station attendant and two other people are inside the gas station. As you walk up to the counter to pay for your gas just as you start to reach for your wallet a young male comes running into the gas station wearing a bandana over his face and holding a 1911. The man orders everyone to the ground and tells the cashier to open his drawer or he will kill him.

Do you attempt to draw your weapon and shoot the idiot or do you lay down and wait hoping that once he has his money he will run off?

2nd Do you think being inside the gas station and open carrying will make you a target and force you into a situation or do you think the sight of your gun would convince the robber to find another gas station?

I do not have a answer or am trying to pick sides just something I have debated in my own head ever since I started carrying

Jayd1981 · Nov 15, 2011

First, criminals go for the weakest target they can find (generally). There was a document encounter of a couple criminals waiting for a few patrons to leave a restraunt who had visible sidearms. I have only read about one documented incident, however I would believe this does happen on occasion and most times, no one never knows a crime was about to happen.

Now for the scenario where a robbery is in progress. If I can draw my sidearm without him seeing it, then I would absolutely shoot him given the opportunity to do it with as little risk to myself and others in the area as possible. The criteria I need to meet to draw my sidearm, is that I feel that myself or someone in the immediate vicinity is in danger of life or limb. I do not carry my pistol as a bluff, I have trained and am willing to use it to save my life or the lives of others.

Metalhead47 · Nov 15, 2011

Jayd1981 said:
First, criminals go for the weakest target they can find (generally). There was a document encounter of a couple criminals waiting for a few patrons to leave a restraunt who had visible sidearms. I have only read about one documented incident, however I would believe this does happen on occasion and most times, no one never knows a crime was about to happen.

Now for the scenario where a robbery is in progress. If I can draw my sidearm without him seeing it, then I would absolutely shoot him given the opportunity to do it with as little risk to myself and others in the area as possible. The criteria I need to meet to draw my sidearm, is that I feel that myself or someone in the immediate vicinity is in danger of life or limb. I do not carry my pistol as a bluff, I have trained and am willing to use it to save my life or the lives of others.

+1 What's to say the perp isn't going to shoot everyone anyway after the fact? How many folks are dead today because they did exactly what the bad guy wanted and he killed them any way? A guy with a bandanna & gun in-hand making threats pretty much fits everyone's personal definition of a clear & present danger to self & others (except maybe the brady's).

Drop him. Or at least try to drop him. If I don't get him, my wife will.

Or, simply avoid the situation entirely by paying at the pump and being a good witness after the fact.

Justman1020 · Nov 15, 2011

I'd say lay down. That will take his attention off you since you are no longer a threat in his eye. Once on the ground, draw and fire from the prone.

thebigsd · Nov 15, 2011

First off, what criminals carry 1911s? Second, if it is a 1911 I would check to see if the hammer is back. If the hammer wasn't back and all of the other conditions (clean shot, etc) were right I would probably draw and fire. If the hammer was back, I would probably follow the advice from the post above and fire from the prone. I would only fire if I felt I was in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm. The problem with these scenarios is that there are so many variables it is hard to come up with a right or wrong answer.

amlevin · Nov 15, 2011

The Real Answer is:

You really don't know what you'd do until you experience it. There are lots of "I would", "I should", and "I might" answers but in reality you don't know what you "Would" do. You may be standing there with your hands in the air crying "don't shoot, don't shoot" with a big wet spot in the crotch of your pants for all you know.

Actual situations vary so much and any actual actions will probably be far different than what you envision in an imaginary scenario. Even those who train regularly to deal with this kind of situation don't react the way they trained.

OrangeIsTrouble · Nov 15, 2011

amlevin said:
You really don't know what you'd do until you experience it. There are lots of "I would", "I should", and "I might" answers but in reality you don't know what you "Would" do. You may be standing there with your hands in the air crying "don't shoot, don't shoot" with a big wet spot in the crotch of your pants for all you know.

Actual situations vary so much and any actual actions will probably be far different than what you envision in an imaginary scenario. Even those who train regularly to deal with this kind of situation don't react the way they trained.

Very good contribution to this thread!!!! Absolutely genius!!!!!!

:banghead:

If we talk about this now, imagine and run thru scenarios in our minds and discuss with others, our judgement at the time of need will be a little bit more educated. For example, thebigsd mentioned looking for a cocked hammer. I never really thought of that, but that's because I'd consider all guns loaded. Maybe somebody else will find themselves in a better position and all of a sudden, they'll look for the hammer on a 1911 and they'll be able to make an informed decision.

SFCRetired · Nov 15, 2011

1. Draw and fire immediately. Reason: The gunman's attention is initially going to be focused on the clerk. This will give you precious seconds if you use them.
2. Don't worry about whether or not the weapon is loaded or cocked or is, in fact, real. You're faced with a criminal holding what looks like a weapon.
3. From having worked in convenience stores and having lost friends who also worked in those stores, I will tell you that the criminal nowadays does not want to leave witnesses. In the instance given, you should consider your life to be in imminent danger.
4. Keep in mind that, should you shoot, you will be both hailed as a hero and vilified for shooting that little "angel who was just turning his life around."
5. After the fact and before the police arrive, make sure you remember what we have said about talking to anyone immediately after a SD shooting. The very most you might want to do is get the names of any witnesses and be sure the perp's weapon doesn't disappear.

SigGuy23 · Nov 15, 2011

I noticed in all theses responses no one talked getting out of the line of fire. If you see a guy coming in the store as described above, the first thing should be to find cover/concealment to reduce your chances of getting hit if he does fire first. It also gives you time to draw your weapon if need be. All of those other ideas are great ideas. I'm just saying Why would you just stand there in front of the counter when You see a guy like that coming into the store?

my $.02

SFCRetired · Nov 15, 2011

SigGuy23 said:
I noticed in all theses responses no one talked getting out of the line of fire. If you see a guy coming in the store as described above, the first thing should be to find cover/concealment to reduce your chances of getting hit if he does fire first. It also gives you time to draw your weapon if need be. All of those other ideas are great ideas. I'm just saying Why would you just stand there in front of the counter when You see a guy like that coming into the store?

my $.02

My reasoning is this: If you start looking for cover and trying to move out of the line of fire, you have refocused the gunman's attention from the clerk to you. Whereas, if you immediately draw and fire while the gunman's attention is fixed on the clerk, you have, hopefully, both eliminated the threat and acted to keep yourself and others safe.

Really, we are talking fractions of a second from the time the gunman runs in until the time it is all over.

BigDave · Nov 15, 2011

As with an scenario, if you like you chances, act if not wait and there is no doubt in this described scenario lethal force would be appropriate.

Responses vary from each situation with many factors involved some of those are;

Your Ability, Health and Strength
Your Location, Cover or Concealment
Location of Perp to You.
Backstop? are there others that may be hit if you do miss?
Are you close enough and Capable to disarm the Perp?
Your ability to draw and fire, it takes approximately .25 seconds to acknowledge a threat and how long does it take you to draw and shoot on target? 2 to 3 seconds?
If you do engage are you able to shoot on the move to cover or concealment?

As Clint Eastwood said, "Feel Lucky Punk? Well Do Ya?"

Whitney · Nov 15, 2011

Dont put yourself in that position to begin with

fire suppressor said:
Excuse me everyone but I've been thinking again...

Scenario:
You are inside a gas station pre-paying for your tank of gas, you, the station attendant and two other people are inside the gas station. As you walk up to the counter to pay for your gas just as you start to reach for your wallet a young male comes running into the gas station wearing a bandana over his face and holding a 1911. The man orders everyone to the ground and tells the cashier to open his drawer or he will kill him.

Do you attempt to draw your weapon and shoot the idiot or do you lay down and wait hoping that once he has his money he will run off?

2nd Do you think being inside the gas station and open carrying will make you a target and force you into a situation or do you think the sight of your gun would convince the robber to find another gas station?

I do not have a answer or am trying to pick sides just something I have debated in my own head ever since I started carrying

Understand all, and agree with the reason for rolling these scenarios around in your head.
I would suggest trying to keep yourself out of this situation to begin with. For example, I pay at the pump with a card because of this exact type of scenario. I have routine places (favorite pump) to conduct all my business that preclude these types of things from happening. I acknowledge this wont keep me out of trouble in every case but it goes a long way to help.

~Whitney

911Grunt · Nov 15, 2011

It's also possible that the suspect may have other associates inside the store as a customer or waiting outside. Like the group of subject's who where robbing gas station/convenience stores earlier this year. There is nothing wrong with being a good witness.

MSG Laigaie · Nov 15, 2011

A couple of you had the right idea (sig). The perp said get down,eh? Cover and return fire. Get down like he asked. Noone notices my weapon anyway, I think it would go unnoticed in this case.

MilProGuy · Nov 15, 2011

Whitney said:
Understand all, and agree with the reason for rolling these scenarios around in your head.
I would suggest trying to keep yourself out of this situation to begin with. For example, I pay at the pump with a card because of this exact type of scenario. I have routine places (favorite pump) to conduct all my business that preclude these types of things from happening. I acknowledge this wont keep me out of trouble in every case but it goes a long way to help.

~Whitney

I'm with you.

I never go into a convenience store to pay for gas, as I pay at the pump.

Avoidance is my #1 priority, and if I were to find myself in the situation you described, I'd agree with SigGuy23 and try to seek cover before doing anything. If the gunman was not an immediate threat to my life, I'd be hesitant to pull my handgun and start firing in a crowded store.

hermannr · Nov 15, 2011

Look on the Ohio and GA forum, two instances where the supposed BG saw the OC and left. Another instance is where the writer is talking to a felon, don't remember which state, should be easy to find. the gist is,,,,

If you are OC and BG sees you, the probabilities are, BG wll not even try rob that store, but will rather go find an easier victim.

That said, I am the same as some others have already stated, it is very rare for me to enter a convience store. I normally pay at the pump, and as I do not have my local tribal permission slip, and the tribal gas station has the best prices around here, I do not like to disarm.

Personally, I would rather be a good witness...I've been shot at before, (in Vietnam) not pleasant.

Difdi · Nov 15, 2011

fire suppressor said:
Excuse me everyone but I've been thinking again...

Scenario:
You are inside a gas station pre-paying for your tank of gas, you, the station attendant and two other people are inside the gas station. As you walk up to the counter to pay for your gas just as you start to reach for your wallet a young male comes running into the gas station wearing a bandana over his face and holding a 1911. The man orders everyone to the ground and tells the cashier to open his drawer or he will kill him.

Do you attempt to draw your weapon and shoot the idiot or do you lay down and wait hoping that once he has his money he will run off?

2nd Do you think being inside the gas station and open carrying will make you a target and force you into a situation or do you think the sight of your gun would convince the robber to find another gas station?

I do not have a answer or am trying to pick sides just something I have debated in my own head ever since I started carrying

Well, first off, is he looking at me? Trying to draw while the center of attention is a good way to get shot. Second, is the gun aimed in my direction even if his head isn't? Third, if I lie down, or just start to, will it remove me from his line of sight?

Getting out of the line of fire, or at least the line of sight is generally a good idea. Once out of it, I would indeed draw, but I would not fire - I am not the police, and I lack qualified immunity to a wrongful death lawsuit. On the other hand, I've often been (quite accurately) accused of having a paladin complex many times before, and I would try to make a citizen's arrest once I've drawn.

If possible, I would move so the clerk (and other customers) are not my backstop nor the robber's backstop. I would wait until he is distracted, stand back up, aim, and while my inner John Wayne would be inclined towards "Drop the weapon NOW!" or "You're under citizen's arrest! Drop it!", I'm more likely, being honest with how past experience tells me I talk under stress, to just yell "Hey!".

At that point, my reaction depends on whether he drops it or tries to turn. For his sake and mine, I hope he drops it. Because I will shoot. If he drops it, I'd hold him at gunpoint until the police arrive, unless someone is able to restrain him somehow.

With any luck, the cops wouldn't shoot the armed man on sight.

thebigsd · Nov 16, 2011

Difdi said:
Well, first off, is he looking at me? Trying to draw while the center of attention is a good way to get shot. Second, is the gun aimed in my direction even if his head isn't? Third, if I lie down, or just start to, will it remove me from his line of sight?

Getting out of the line of fire, or at least the line of sight is generally a good idea. Once out of it, I would indeed draw, but I would not fire - I am not the police, and I lack qualified immunity to a wrongful death lawsuit. On the other hand, I've often been (quite accurately) accused of having a paladin complex many times before, and I would try to make a citizen's arrest once I've drawn.

If possible, I would move so the clerk (and other customers) are not my backstop nor the robber's backstop. I would wait until he is distracted, stand back up, aim, and while my inner John Wayne would be inclined towards "Drop the weapon NOW!" or "You're under citizen's arrest! Drop it!", I'm more likely, being honest with how past experience tells me I talk under stress, to just yell "Hey!".

At that point, my reaction depends on whether he drops it or tries to turn. For his sake and mine, I hope he drops it. Because I will shoot. If he drops it, I'd hold him at gunpoint until the police arrive, unless someone is able to restrain him somehow.

With any luck, the cops wouldn't shoot the armed man on sight.

I wouldn't say a word before shooting. Doing so announces your presence and gives the criminal time to react. Why let the criminal know your intentions? If you are in fear for our life then you should be shooting, no warning necessary. The criminal has made his choice, make yours.

FMCDH · Nov 16, 2011

BigDave said:
As with an scenario, if you like you chances, act if not wait and there is no doubt in this described scenario lethal force would be appropriate.

Responses vary from each situation with many factors involved some of those are;

Your Ability, Health and Strength

Your Location, Cover or Concealment

Location of Perp to You.

Backstop? are there others that may be hit if you do miss?

Are you close enough and Capable to disarm the Perp?

Your ability to draw and fire, it takes approximately .25 seconds to acknowledge a threat and how long does it take you to draw and shoot on target? 2 to 3 seconds?

If you do engage are you able to shoot on the move to cover or concealment?

As Clint Eastwood said, "Feel Lucky Punk? Well Do Ya?"

+1

Every time we have a thread like this, we get a string of "I would" answers as if the angles, distances, obstructions, focus of attentions, and just generally the totality of the circumstances are somehow fixed in a way that would allow such speculation to be useful, or even slightly accurate to reality.

I would warn everyone against getting specific responses to these kinds of scenarios locked in your head, as it may impede your ability to act fluidly when the scenario doesn't play out the way you have imagined it, because the chances are, it wont.

I would suggest, speculate less, train mind and muscle memory more, and don't rule out anything as a possible response.

As Bruce Lee said when it came to combat.... "Flow like water, be like water."
In which he meant, do not pre-mold yourself by attempting to imagine the outcome of a fight, but prepare yourself in every way you can, and be prepared to do whatever may be necessary to survive whatever circumstances you find yourself in.

Difdi · Nov 16, 2011

thebigsd said:
I wouldn't say a word before shooting. Doing so announces your presence and gives the criminal time to react. Why let the criminal know your intentions? If you are in fear for our life then you should be shooting, no warning necessary. The criminal has made his choice, make yours.

I have. I'll do what is morally right, not necessarily what makes me safest physically. A verbal warning gives him the chance not to die for his mistakes, and gives me the option not to shoot him. Both are worth the effort.

Shoot, don't shoot scenario

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