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Thread: Engage or not engage?

  1. #1
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    Engage or not engage?

    Going to run this one by you:
    You're sitting in your house, something outside, across the way catches your eye, and you look and.... someone about 75+m away is aiming a scoped rifle at you from the property of a neighbor...
    Engage? or not? Should it be taken as/considered a direct/imminent threat? whether he gets off a shot or no?

    Had this one today, myself-was in my front room sanding some wood for another knife project, when a glint/reflection caught my eye- looked out the window and across the way, and spotted some kid with a scoped .22 rifle pointed right at me. No idea why or whatever.
    1st instinct was hand on the pistol- but I held, and grabbed my camera instead, as I had it nearby to document the project I was working on.
    Brought it up, zoomed in on the kid with the 200mm lense, and as I was bringing it up, he promptly shouldered the rifle and began to walk off.

    Close up:


    Long view of range to target. -and no, there was nothing between he and I for him to be taking aim at.



    Long shot for the pistol, yet another reason Ive been debating a rifle or carbine for around the house..Not entirely confident of a .45 shot out to that distance, or even my shotgun, if I had to.

  2. #2
    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    That is downright scary.

    I would highly recommend that you make a police report and share the pics of this misguided young man with them. GOD forbid, but the next time it may not turn out so well.
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  3. #3
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    Well, here's the problem with that- the kid has has some run-ins with other neighbors, regarding his shooting. He's not the safest shot, let's say that much. A few of his misses have ended up whacking people's homes, trees and the like, some months back.
    Police have been out to speak to him on a few occasions,and frankly, didnt do much of anything.

    Several of us have spoken to the father about these issues, and he could have given a ****, really. Im seriously considering advising the father to get the kid in check, or next time I see the kid even looking like he's going to point that thing in this direction, Im going to simply engage the target..

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    Unfrotunately,

    unless you can get some surveilance video of him actively pointing his rifle at you or your home you just got a one way ticket to the big house should you " just engage the target". The picture only shows him with a shoulderd firearm walking by to who knows where. Its my understanding that just pointing a weapon at some one is assault with a deadly weapon so the police should do their job if you press charges against him. I am not a lawyer so maybe you should consult one before you "engage" because you will definately need one then.

  5. #5
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    What about speaking to this young idiot and putting the fear of God (or at least you!) into him?

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    Like most punk kids these days, there's little to no God to put the fear of into them, unfortunately.

    And, no IM not just engaging at will, as yet, as you can see- the kid was able to walk away -this time. The father will be advised though, to make sure the kid knows that the next time he points a firearm at an armed person, he should probably expect some rounds coming his way.
    I attempted to get a pic of him when he was aiming- since he already had me scoped in, he saw me reach for the camera, and that's when he turned and walked off.

    But- that said, what should one reasonably be expected to do? Try and take pictures when they've already got the drop on you and has you in the crosshairs? Or...? Had he chosen to fire, at that moment, I'd have been hit while holding onto a camera, instead of my .45... Im not too sure how well I sit with that idea.

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    Going to shoulder my dislike of you for a second and simply say that this is one seriously messed up scenario.

    I would have pulled out the Panther for sure, and at least had it concealed from his perspective but ready to go if needed. If I had a place I could withdraw to, then tactical retreat may be the best option. Either way I wouldn't lean on the .45 as it might not get the grouping I need in this scenario. Let's face it. To 100yd's a .22 is a dangerous little round. Small groups and low recoil paint a picture of easy repeat engagement. Even out of a bolty since they have such a short throw chambered in .22lr

    Considering this kids pattern of behavior, this appears to go beyond some kid looking at a squirrel below your window, and into something else entirely. If you had a picture of this kid, scope trained on you or even remotely in your direction, you may have the basis for brandishing. Something is not right here with this guy.

    This is exactly the kind of crap I possess and own a longarm for by the way. Not every engagement is 10-15 feet.

    Keep your head on a swivel and stay safe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Religion uses is as a tool, they did not create it.
    The wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    You think that I am ill-equipped...hit me with your best shot Einstein, I am calling you out.


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  8. #8
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    Wilco. And I agree. That's why Im not fond of engaging with a .45. That range is a bit much even for the shotgun, even though the slugs would probably reach.
    So, I need to soon address the long-gun vacancy in my arsenal. Im just torn, at the moment, as to which rifle/carbine I want for my environs.

    Other part of this issue- a yr. ago another neighborhood teen was engaging in break-ins, home-invasions and other thefts from most of the homes out here- during an attempt at one on my place, they had shot and killed one of my dogs from about 40-50m out, and killed it, as it was barking to alert me to their approach.
    When I stepped out, they took off and ran back to their place , in the dark. (no streetlights out here, so at night- zero vision out there for me)
    Cops called, police reports filed, blah blah blah for all the good any of that did. Which was zilch. No "proof" that they had done it. Despite half the neighbors between the home of these kids and mine saw and /or heard the kids, and the shots. So, they walk.

    So any arms being pointed/oriented in my direction here- whether it's CQB-distance or 1000m, I tend to take a bit serious. Once was plenty, I dont plan on permitting a second occasion.

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    Don't have any clue as to your financial status, but might I suggest a surveillance system, preferably with a varifocal lens?

    Pick one of those up as you head our for your Mini-14/AK shopping trip? Could save your ass and is good incentive anyways. Most provide web accessibility meaning you can check up on your home from your smartphone if you like.

    Just a few suggestions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Religion uses is as a tool, they did not create it.
    The wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    You think that I am ill-equipped...hit me with your best shot Einstein, I am calling you out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Free will is only slightly a conscious exercise...

  10. #10
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    Oh, after the previous incident, I'd gotten the place wired -motion/light/full-alarms on everything, and web/networked day/night cams all-around. Unfortunately they are decent out to a certain distance, but dont pick up much out to the distance this was happening. Going to be re-positioning a few cameras to include some of the more distant views, now though.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Billy D's Avatar
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    Without question, I would have drawn down on him safety off, if he didnt IMMEDIATLY drop his gun He would have had lead coming his way.

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    Regular Member Billy D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Oh, after the previous incident, I'd gotten the place wired -motion/light/full-alarms on everything, and web/networked day/night cams all-around. Unfortunately they are decent out to a certain distance, but dont pick up much out to the distance this was happening. Going to be re-positioning a few cameras to include some of the more distant views, now though.
    I happen to be in the CCTV business, you can buy IR emitters on ebay for dirt cheap, place them at 100' intervals to get more "reach" from your night vision cams.
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/48-LED-illum...item2eb3f8c139
    Keep in mind im in Michigan.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Steeler-gal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Well, here's the problem with that- the kid has has some run-ins with other neighbors, regarding his shooting. He's not the safest shot, let's say that much. A few of his misses have ended up whacking people's homes, trees and the like, some months back.
    Police have been out to speak to him on a few occasions,and frankly, didnt do much of anything.

    Several of us have spoken to the father about these issues, and he could have given a ****, really. Im seriously considering advising the father to get the kid in check, or next time I see the kid even looking like he's going to point that thing in this direction, Im going to simply engage the target..

    All the more reason to make a report. One day he will shoot someone and at least there'll be plenty of reports on file to show that he was a freak and threat and that the police should have done something. I'd rather be a nuisance neighbor to this family than someone who will be telling the press later "I wish I had done something."

  14. #14
    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steeler-gal View Post
    All the more reason to make a report. One day he will shoot someone and at least there'll be plenty of reports on file to show that he was a freak and threat and that the police should have done something. I'd rather be a nuisance neighbor to this family than someone who will be telling the press later "I wish I had done something."
    Very well-stated, ma'am.
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  15. #15
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    I'd say if your area is zoned to allow discharge of a firearm (or not prohibit it) then your photo is of only slight evidence, but taking in the totality of the event, already had calls out there and you got him carrying a scoped rifle (meaning you took the time and had the opportunity to get him on camera) I don't think you need more than that to have the cops talk to him.

    It would take a pretty dense and uncaring Police Chief to ignore this problem if you document it. Heck, send a copy of your report the photo and evidence of police inaction to your local paper or news station and maybe they'll do a piece on it. I'd take it VERY SERIOUSLY if you saw him pointing a scoped rifle at you. Don't play around.

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowfiveoh View Post
    Don't have any clue as to your financial status, but might I suggest a surveillance system, preferably with a varifocal lens?

    Pick one of those up as you head our for your Mini-14/AK shopping trip? Could save your ass and is good incentive anyways. Most provide web accessibility meaning you can check up on your home from your smartphone if you like.

    Just a few suggestions.
    I've shot a mini-14 in the ranch version and the target version, both shot great. So I second that suggestion.

    I don't know if taking this to the cops will do much good, your word against his. All they could do is talk to him. And I most certainly wouldn't seek him out. You have problems with this kid, so if you go looking for him and something goes wrong (he might pull a gun on you, or even say you were threatening him) you could be looking at time. The law don't care that nothing was done about this situation and all you wanted to do was talk him into stopping his shenanigans. All they care about is that you went looking for trouble.

    For anything to be done to this kid you're going to either have to get a LEO on your side or 3 hrs of tape of him aiming at you, his finger prints, his dropped ID (they're going to say it was planted), his admittance of guilt, the weapon with spent shells, bullet holes in you and/or your house.

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    hang on hang on hang on. From this distance you see a rifle pointed at you and instead of taking cover you want to engage?

    Am I the only one that sees the issue with this?

    If you're looking for another opinion here is mine.

    I see a flash of light from 75m away. I am in the front room of my house. Instead of grabbing by gun and playing sniper, I hit the deck and call 911.... How can I justify self defense at 75m? You HAD to grab an AR or whatever and pop the kid? You couldn't take cover and call 911? Remember, were not 5ft away in a self defense situation. You are IN YOUR HOUSE and the possible 'tango' is 75M away....lay on the floor... call the cops, remain armed prepared to defend yourself should he close in on you.

    Do I think that someone scoping a rifle in on home residents should get popped? I won't say.

    Do I think you'll have a hard time justifying self defense in court after taking the time to retrieve a long gun and after retrieving it having a shoot out instead of taking cover and calling 911? Yes.
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    My reaction would have been...

    Just some dumb kid who should have never made it out of hunter saftey class. He was just checking you out through his scope and probably really does not know any better. I would try visting his house when his parents are home. If the parents seem irresponsible or apathetic, or if the kid told me to take a flying leap, then I might consider contacting the sheriff.

    Of course, the sheriff does not like me and we are not friends.
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  19. #19
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    hang on hang on hang on. From this distance you see a rifle pointed at you and instead of taking cover you want to engage?

    Am I the only one that sees the issue with this?

    If you're looking for another opinion here is mine.

    I see a flash of light from 75m away. I am in the front room of my house. Instead of grabbing by gun and playing sniper, I hit the deck and call 911.... How can I justify self defense at 75m? You HAD to grab an AR or whatever and pop the kid? You couldn't take cover and call 911? Remember, were not 5ft away in a self defense situation. You are IN YOUR HOUSE and the possible 'tango' is 75M away....lay on the floor... call the cops, remain armed prepared to defend yourself should he close in on you.

    Do I think that someone scoping a rifle in on home residents should get popped? I won't say.

    Do I think you'll have a hard time justifying self defense in court after taking the time to retrieve a long gun and after retrieving it having a shoot out instead of taking cover and calling 911? Yes.
    Yes, it is best to cower in fear every time you are faced with a possible threat and call our protectors to come to our aid. But they won't get there in time to do anything, and even if they did catch the kid walking down the road all they could do is talk to him anyways. He was only breaking the law when he pointed the rifle, and the cops probably won't catch him in the act. So it would be OP's word against the perps.

    And you're thinking in the form of a handgun. It would still be hard to argue SD at 75m but a rifle, even a .22, is more than capable of that.

  20. #20
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    Scary situation. I think I am leaning towards Schlitz's answer. Deadly force should be used as a last resort and only if you feel that you are in danger of imminent death or serious bodily injury. I would file a police report. If you ever have to engage this kid you will have prior documentation about the issue. As for getting a long gun, I'll give a +1 to the Mini-14.
    Last edited by thebigsd; 11-16-2011 at 12:51 AM.
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  21. #21
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    Is there any possibility this kid is related to the other bunch you had the run in with?

    I agree you should have gotten down out of sight. I used to make head shots on groundhogs ( woodchucks to some ) at 100 yards with my scoped .22 rifle. If he was that close to you , you were in trouble had he decided to fire.

    Sounds to me that this young man needs a lesson in safe firearms handling .

  22. #22
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    Yeah, my gut feel on this is that he's using the scope as a telescope and was not aware (NOT THINKING) that his actions constitute a danger to life and limb.

    There's two ways to go about it... one is to call 911 and get the federales on it, and/or grab a rifle and put a round above his head large enough to rain wood chips down on him. That being said, option #2 is not something that would be entertained by any member of this site. For one, he might suddenly think he has the OK to engage. He's just a kid.

    If one had time to think, putting one down the end of his rifle would be a lesson, but the possibility of missing and killing him (and rightfully so, since he does have a rifle pointed at you) is frightening.

    I second what the other poster said... hit the dirt, go for cover, call 911, and fetch a rifle (if safe to do so).

    The police don't generally have a problem located a kid walking around with a .22.
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

  23. #23
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    Whatever comes of it- I was mostly looking for a consensus as to reactions to this type of situation. There's always a lot of angles to consider-but when the moment things are happening-not a whole lot of time for analysis of the options. So, there's the catch-22= do the sensible thing, hang tight, hope the guy with a rifle doesnt pull the trigger- maybe call 911 (for all the good it would do without direct proof, and the fact that way out here in the boonies, response times average 1.5-2 hrs at least) , or given time to get into action, return fire if fired upon, or?

    My SD/HD scenarios dont all fit into the typical box that most others have to consider. Im not in a densely-populated urban/suburban area where I need to concern myself quiet as much with issues like overpenetration , and room-distance shoot-outs (unless someone manages to get inside) and such.
    But, this doesnt mean that crimes dont happen- crimes, and violent crimes, at that, arent the exclusive domain of "urban" type punks with their pants half-down running around wanting to be Scarface.

    As such, I have to factor in less-typical engagements, like someone 50, 75 or 100m away taking shots from off my property- but still potentially taking shots..
    At what point does range/distance nullify "justifiable" SD/HD? If someone sends lead your way-be it from 3m or 300m, how is it any less a threat that needs to be addressed? I've run that hypothetical scenario past LEOS, lawyers, and looked it over in our Statutes- nothing seems to address it, specifically ,and those who should be in the know are at a loss other than to just point our "Stand your ground" Statute.

    My past situation out here involved much the same thing-but from a different shooter, and from a different direction, but the incoming shots were from off-property approx: 40 meters.

    Im sure the kid was probably clowning around, but- the situation itself reminded me of the previous situation, one Im not inclined to repeat, if possible-but- I have to consider the potential threats as they present themselves, no?

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Yes, it is best to cower in fear every time you are faced with a possible threat and call our protectors to come to our aid. But they won't get there in time to do anything, and even if they did catch the kid walking down the road all they could do is talk to him anyways. He was only breaking the law when he pointed the rifle, and the cops probably won't catch him in the act. So it would be OP's word against the perps.

    And you're thinking in the form of a handgun. It would still be hard to argue SD at 75m but a rifle, even a .22, is more than capable of that.
    Cowering in fear every time you are faced with a possible threat and taking cover when a kid is aiming a .22 at you while you're already in the safety of your home 75m away are two completely different things... but you wouldn't know because you appear to be trololololol.
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  25. #25
    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    I hate to say it, but Schlitz is right. The best course of action would be to take cover and call the police.

    IDK about Florida, but in Texas you would, technically, be justified in using deadly force to remove the threat. However, do to the range, the fact the kid did not fire at the victim and that the victim was inside, it would be extremely hard to prove that in court. It would cost a lot of money, time and most likely your job. Let's not forget the numerous political ramifications. For the liberal press, this would be a goldmine. "GUN RIGHTS ACTIVIST/OCDO SUPPORTER SHOOTS/MURDERS CHILD FOR HUNTING SQUIRRELS"

    It sucks that you have to take these things into consideration before you can protect your life and the life of your family and friends. But that is the reality we are faced with.

    Let's say the individual comes back and does this again, you have your scoped rifle in arm's reach so you grab it and remove the very real threat. You are now burdened with proving that you were acting in self defense, you have to prove that the individual was aiming a weapon at you and you had real reason to fear for your life. In all likely hood you are going to be spending thousands to millions in legal fees alone. You will probably spend a considerable amount of time behind bars and there is a good chance you will lose your job. You WILL have to deal with bad publicity, this is especially true if the attacker is either a minor or minority. And if they are both, god help you because you're just plain screwed. "RACIST PSYCHOPATH SHOOTS/KILLS HELPLESS CHILD FOR HUNTING." Even if it is a clear cut case of self defense, you will still have to deal with bad publicity. You will also have to deal with outraged members of your community and possibly family/friends. The fallout, legal, financial and political will devastate if not outright destroy your family. It is unfortunate, but you can not defend yourself with deadly force then go on with your life. Your life will change and it will change for the worse.

    You must consider these things and you must ask yourself if the threat is significant enough to warrant the fallout.

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