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Thread: Permission slip...OC...forbidder GFSZ....anyone?

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Permission slip...OC...forbidder GFSZ....anyone?

    Tomorrow Im taking my kids to school and picking them up afterwards...Contemplating OCing while i do this. Obviously keeping in mind the rules. Has anyone attempted what Im considering doing? (btw, this is the school just up from where we had our breakfast 2 weeks ago)

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    Quote Originally Posted by GlockRDH View Post
    Tomorrow Im taking my kids to school and picking them up afterwards...Contemplating OCing while i do this. Obviously keeping in mind the rules. Has anyone attempted what Im considering doing? (btw, this is the school just up from where we had our breakfast 2 weeks ago)
    Well, if you follow the law, you should be okay.

    With a CCW license, you need to stay off the school grounds.

    Without a CCW license, you need to stay at least 1,000 feet from the school grounds.
    Wis. CCL #5x Springfield XDM 3.8 Compact .40 S&W, Utah CFP

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    I'm not from Madison, but here's what I'd do.

    1. Retain a lawyer, or at least get a consultation (usually free);
    2. Print out the relevant documents;
    3. Take a firearm you don't mind being confiscated (iow not your Commemoration gold embossed 1911)
    4. Take a friend;
    5. Run a video and two sound recorders;
    6. Consider CC and make sure you have your permit;
    7. Park off grounds and walk to the school door (?) this is to avoid a 'parking lot' or a 'traffic violation' and the extra powers LEOs have when you're driving;
    8. Dress nicely, black clothes, black gun, they may not see it;
    9. Be aware of boisterous teens who might make a scene if they see you.

    Good luck!

    --------------
    e6chevron: Can you produce a cite? I could only find stuff from 2000 and 2006. MOST schools allow you to CC with a permit IN your car where you remain while picking up/dropping off kids. Isn't Madison the same? Also, beware of local regs, if any. Maybe call the school or the PD and ask anonymously?
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 11-15-2011 at 07:17 PM.
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    What part of "not allowed on school grounds" is confusing you?
    Wis. CCL #5x Springfield XDM 3.8 Compact .40 S&W, Utah CFP

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E6chevron View Post
    What part of "not allowed on school grounds" is confusing you?
    The part where you're offering an 'opinion' rather than a cite to a law that one can look up? HTH. That is, unless you are the Governor of Wisconsin.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

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    Badger Johnson-
    e6chevron is correct, you can't carry "in or on the grounds of a school" even with a Concealed Carry License.

    Here is a link the WI Statute 948.605, I do believe there might be a Federal Gun Free School Zone law as well the applies...

    Here is a link to the CCL FAQ on the DOJ's website regarding the statute, you can see the reference on page 28 of the document, as well on the bottom of page 36, and on page 37. I'm really not a fan of this FAQ because some portions of the document aren't as clear as I think they should be, but in regards to GFSZ's I think it's on point.
    Last edited by Mugenlude; 11-15-2011 at 07:54 PM.

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    yes..i well aware that i cant go on the grounds...but Im planning waiting on the sidewalk, about 60' from the front door...

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    I'm not from Madison, but here's what I'd do.

    1. Retain a lawyer, or at least get a consultation (usually free);
    2. Print out the relevant documents;
    3. Take a firearm you don't mind being confiscated (iow not your Commemoration gold embossed 1911)
    4. Take a friend;
    5. Run a video and two sound recorders;
    6. Consider CC and make sure you have your permit;
    7. Park off grounds and walk to the school door (?) this is to avoid a 'parking lot' or a 'traffic violation' and the extra powers LEOs have when you're driving;
    8. Dress nicely, black clothes, black gun, they may not see it;
    9. Be aware of boisterous teens who might make a scene if they see you.

    Good luck!

    --------------
    e6chevron: Can you produce a cite? I could only find stuff from 2000 and 2006. MOST schools allow you to CC with a permit IN your car where you remain while picking up/dropping off kids. Isn't Madison the same? Also, beware of local regs, if any. Maybe call the school or the PD and ask anonymously?
    What you described is a felony in this state. Make sure your were not advocating.

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    Regular Member Pyro01's Avatar
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    I believe if you're on the sidewalk even that still may be considered school grounds. I wouldn't want to chance a $1000 ticket to find out.
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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Am I wrong to assume that the sidewalk between the school and the street is public right-of-way? hence, NOT school property.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    What you described is a felony in this state. Make sure your were not advocating.
    Since we now have a cite, I would not open carry within sight of the school, but I read the cite and it's vague on what you can do in your car picking up a kid. There might be a newer or competing regulation defining in-car carry.

    Also this is vague:
    1m. A person who possesses the firearm in accordance with 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (i), (iv), (v), (vi), or (vii).
    948.605(2)(b)1r. 1r. Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).
    948.605(2)(b)2m. 2m. A state-certified commission warden acting in his or her official capacity.
    948.605(2)(b)3. 3. That is not loaded and is:
    948.605(2)(b)3.a. a. Encased; or
    So if you OC, and your firearm is encased (say a holster with a flap or retention device) and unloaded, you might be "legal".

    I THOUGHT the OP was talking about challenging a vague statute or testing a new one (thus the comment about talking to a lawyer which would negate anything below in my list which was not legal).
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

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    Regular Member markush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    7. Park off grounds and walk to the school door (?) this is to avoid a 'parking lot' or a 'traffic violation' and the extra powers LEOs have when you're driving;
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyro01 View Post
    I believe if you're on the sidewalk even that still may be considered school grounds. I wouldn't want to chance a $1000 ticket to find out.
    I see so much MISinformation out there just across the forums that I hate to imagine what it's like with people who are not inter-web savvy! It's a wonder there has not been a rash of arrests of people that only get their information from Joe Blow at the coffee shop and the local new and newspapers! Everybody who considers carrying should read this https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/201...ed/acts/35.pdf and if you can't comprehend it find someone to explain it to you!
    Last edited by markush; 11-15-2011 at 09:09 PM.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlockRDH View Post
    Am I wrong to assume that the sidewalk between the school and the street is public right-of-way? hence, NOT school property.
    Yes, you are wrong. Only the sidewalk along the road is public right-of-way.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Since we now have a cite, I would not open carry within sight of the school, but I read the cite and it's vague on what you can do in your car picking up a kid. There might be a newer or competing regulation defining in-car carry.

    Also this is vague:

    So if you OC, and your firearm is encased (say a holster with a flap or retention device) and unloaded, you might be "legal".

    I THOUGHT the OP was talking about challenging a vague statute or testing a new one (thus the comment about talking to a lawyer which would negate anything below in my list which was not legal).
    948.60 and 948.61 are VERY specific regarding what is prohibited.
    You must pay careful attention to whether the weapon you are carrying is a handgun or a knife, billy club, taser, etc.
    The rules are different if you have a WI Carry license.
    If you are not a licensee, you must stay 1000' away from school grounds with your handgun unless it is unloaded and encased. Encased means completely enclosed so that no portion of the handgun is exposed. That means a simple flap holster which leaves the smallest portion of the handgun exposed will not cut it and definitely excludes a simple retention holster.
    If you are a licensee, you may walk up to the sidewalk along the street but may not go further including the parking lot unless the firearm is unloaded and encased. If you are driving, you may not pull into the parking lot unless your handgun is unloaded and encased first even if you never leave the car. If you have another concealed or otherwise are carrying weapon which is not a firearm, it may be in the car including the parking lot but must stay in the car if you step out of it.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GlockRDH View Post
    Am I wrong to assume that the sidewalk between the school and the street is public right-of-way? hence, NOT school property.

    Yes, you are wrong. Only the sidewalk along the road is public right-of-way.
    You say:
    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Yes, you are wrong.
    Then you agree with him, confirming he was correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Only the sidewalk along the road is public right-of-way.
    The road, boulevard and the sidewalk that runs parallel with the road are not school property. You both say the same thing, but you say he is wrong and you are right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Since we now have a cite, I would not open carry within sight of the school, but I read the cite and it's vague on what you can do in your car picking up a kid. There might be a newer or competing regulation defining in-car carry.

    Also this is vague:

    So if you OC, and your firearm is encased (say a holster with a flap or retention device) and unloaded, you might be "legal".

    I THOUGHT the OP was talking about challenging a vague statute or testing a new one (thus the comment about talking to a lawyer which would negate anything below in my list which was not legal).
    In Wisconsin, OC / Open Carry is not the term we use for having an encased and unloaded handgun. OC refers to carrying a handgun that is loaded.

    167.31(1)(b) "Encased" means enclosed in a case that is completely zipped, snapped, buckled, tied or otherwise fastened with no part of the firearm exposed.
    I wanted to supplement your opinion on "encased," with a cite.
    You're welcome.

    P.S. You did catch me, I am NOT the Governor of Wisconsin. I am someone he works for.
    Wis. CCL #5x Springfield XDM 3.8 Compact .40 S&W, Utah CFP

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    3. Take a firearm you don't mind being confiscated (iow not your Commemoration gold embossed 1911)
    This might be a good idea. Reminds me I need to pick up a highpoint soon.

    I think the chances of major problems are low, but it would be wise to carry a beater.

    If I had kids and walked them to school, I would wouldn't hesitate to openly carry there. Just stay on the sidewalk and watch for any antis that might freak, they are going to assume it's a no-no I bet.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason in WI View Post
    This might be a good idea. Reminds me I need to pick up a highpoint soon.

    I think the chances of major problems are low, but it would be wise to carry a beater.

    If I had kids and walked them to school, I would wouldn't hesitate to openly carry there. Just stay on the sidewalk and watch for any antis that might freak, they are going to assume it's a no-no I bet.
    I said I was going to do that for a trip to Madistan last year and I got flamed. People's feelings got hurt that I would regard a HiPoint worthy of sacrifice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    I said I was going to do that for a trip to Madistan last year and I got flamed. People's feelings got hurt that I would regard a HiPoint worthy of sacrifice.
    LOL Yea after I posted I though I should clarify that I would use it as a pawn solely based on price . I truly mean no disrespect to them. Most Hi point owners have no issues from what I hear and the factory seems to offer great service. The only reason I don't own one yet is because I usually buy firearms off the net so by the time I ship one and pay for the transfer it would be cheaper to get one in town, and I just haven't been to a gun shop that had one in stock in a long while.

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    just be aware that in some instances the sidewalk is school property. The school may own and maintain the sidewalk.
    The hospital near my home does own the walk around it even though it is open to the public.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    You say:


    Then you agree with him, confirming he was correct.


    The road, boulevard and the sidewalk that runs parallel with the road are not school property. You both say the same thing, but you say he is wrong and you are right.
    I read it as the sidewalk which runs perpendicular to the street, the sidewalk going from the building itself to the street. We agree that the one which runs parallel is not normally school grounds.
    Quote Originally Posted by cheezhed View Post
    just be aware that in some instances the sidewalk is school property. The school may own and maintain the sidewalk.
    The hospital near my home does own the walk around it even though it is open to the public.
    Are you saying that it is "private" property and not part of the public right-of-way? Are they not required to shovel it? Can they prohibit the public from using it?

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Yes, you are wrong. Only the sidewalk along the road is public right-of-way.
    I should've been more concise...the sidewalk PARALLEL to the road and between the school and the stated road.. (not the sidewalk going FROM the school TO the road)
    Clearer?

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlockRDH View Post
    I should've been more concise...the sidewalk PARALLEL to the road and between the school and the stated road.. (not the sidewalk going FROM the school TO the road)
    Clearer?
    Yes.

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    I believe that there are two factually different circumstances that are set at the time that the land was originally subdivided.

    To assume that they are legally the same could present some problems with regard to the “school grounds”.

    In some places the private/school property does indeed end where the (parallel-to-the-roadway) sidewalk is and the land from there to the roadway is considered a “parkway”. Even though the owner of the adjacent land is obligated to “maintain” the grassy area and clear the sidewalk of snow, it does not belong to that land owner and is legally part of the roadway that was deeded to the municipality at the time the land was subdivided.

    In other places, the land ownership may actually go all the way to the curb/roadway and the sidewalk is a public easement across the property. The municipality may or may not be responsible for the maintenance and replacement of such a sidewalk. And it's existence may even be required based upon local ordinances.

    As I understand it, the GFSZ does not make any provision for being on such an easement across “school grounds”. On such a sidewalk one would still be on "school grounds".

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyro01 View Post
    I believe if you're on the sidewalk even that still may be considered school grounds. I wouldn't want to chance a $1000 ticket to find out.
    A PUBLIC sidewalk is considered a public thoroughfare.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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