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Thread: The battle for CHP privacy is ON!

  1. #1
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Exclamation The battle for CHP privacy is ON!

    After about a three year hiatus, it appears that one Fredericksburg area news outlet has again declared war on the privacy of Concealed Handgun Permit holders. As alerted today by the VCDL's VA-ALERT newsletter, the Stafford County Sun, a Media General Newspaper, has printed a list of approximately 100 names of Stafford County residents who received a CHP during the month of September 2011. (Page 3 of the November 11-17 edition.)

    As should probably be expected, the reporting is incorrect as they state at the top of the list, "GUN PERMITS The following were issued concealed weapons permits in September". The compilation of the list was attributed to "Jim Lawrence," described elsewhere on the website as "a contributing writer at the Stafford County Sun."

    EVEN WORSE. I just spent a few minutes browsing the paper's website... even worse, the published list is ON LINE, for any criminal, violent ex-spouse, home-invader wannabe, to read and learn that there are likely to be firearms stored at the permit-holder's home. For obvious reasons, I am not going to post the URL of the article here, but it only took a few moments for me to find. Fortunately, both print and web versions are limited to only what appear to be full legal names, and do not include any address information, other than the obvious, "somewhere in Stafford County."


    Obviously this is very distressing, and demands immediate attention. Quite frankly, it astounds me that literally within a day of the final awareness that the Saslaw-Marsh "death committees" were indeed, finally dead, a news outlet would open up this old wound. I am of the firm opinion that the primary reason news outlets stopped this practice about 3 years ago was because of the headway we were making in the arena of public opinion on just how ridiculous it is to allow these records to be open to the public in the first place.

    We need to use this to our full advantage to fight like heck for a law to be passed during THIS SESSION to finally protect this most sensitive information from the prying eyes of the public, including criminals, ex-domestic partners, and anyone else who might find it beneficial to know where to go steal themselves some guns.

    See additional info posted below.

    TFred

    Text from today's VA-ALERT notice:


    **************************************************
    10. Stafford County Sun magazine publishing permit holders' names again
    **************************************************

    The idiots at the Stafford County Sun don't realize their actions in publishing the names of CHP holders could cause someone to lose their life. It was support for newspapers publishing CHP holders' information that played a role in Senator Houck losing his Senate seat.

    I receive this from a VCDL member:

    -

    You may have have heard this already, but I just discovered that a Stafford County paper known as the "Stafford County Sun" has published a list of names of those who have recently received CHPs on page 3 of their issue dated November 11-17. This is a paper that is basically delivered so far free of charge. Mine came today. The phone # is 659-4466.


    **************************************************


    Low-resolution photo of the printed names:

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    Photo of Jim Lawrence from Stafford County Sun website. (Kind of creepy how much he looks like United States Attorney General Eric Holder, no?)


  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    The impact this might have on people who have relocated for safety reasons is never a concern for these sickos. The same people advocate the restraining order; a piece of paper that still does nothing, but makes violent crimes somehow more illegal...

    I'm surprised that VA hasn't gotten this locked down yet. Newspapers pulling stunts like this got it done in FL quite a while ago, and Florida hates gun owners and gun rights in the absence of other social status elements... Maybe that's why it happened in FL, it is seen more as protecting the rich than protecting rights... The fact that us peons got a pass on it too, is mere coincidence.

    In FL, these lists were used to deny employment, though never officially mentioned as such. Many employers would see if you were on the list, and if you were, toss your job application/resume. The more devious, as is the case with most today, would call you in to waste your time with a song and dance, having no intention of ever hiring you. Just wasting time and resources of the unemployed...

    Keeping a public list of These is just one more reason you shouldn't need one... It only serves the agenda of those who hate Rights... Something America was founded to prevent...

    Ditch the permit and OC instead.
    Last edited by ixtow; 11-16-2011 at 02:37 AM.

  3. #3
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    It's both a CC and NOVA problem TFred, so I don't have a dog in this fight ..... but.....if you really want to stop this, spend a few minutes with the paper and get the name and address of every advertiser in the rag.

    Compose a letter to each one that explains how publishing that endangers law abiding citizens and how law abiding citizens can't patronize businesses that support irresponsible journalism. Try to work the children in.

    That tactic has always worked for me and the one thing that terrifies media owners and managers, is losing advertisers.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Recent? The Sun has lists from 2008 online and I stopped looking after that.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

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    Nice Beret!!!! Certainly not green....maybe raspberry...the kind you buy in a second hand store...
    Last edited by Ric in Richmond; 11-16-2011 at 07:22 AM.

  6. #6
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ric in Richmond View Post
    Nice Beret!!!! Certainly not green....maybe raspberry...the kind you buy in a second hand store...
    LMAO! Such a Prince!
    James Reynolds

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    LMAO! Such a Prince!
    Yep!
    North of Ashland

  8. #8
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Recent? The Sun has lists from 2008 online and I stopped looking after that.
    Interesting indeed. They do not use any particularly consistent format in their reports, so searching back is hit-or-miss.

    I suppose the only reasonable explanation is that this is such an insignificant publication, nobody has noticed recently, at least nobody who cared to report it to VCDL, or here.

    Quick glance seems to indicate most advertisers are car dealers and health care providers. Although of particular note, the new B&M SSG Tactical DOES have an ad... hmmm.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 11-16-2011 at 09:25 AM.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Though it's not 'nice' of me, I'd like to find out something about the author and make it public. He looks creepy to me, lol. Any ideas?

    You could possibly reach Tracy Bell managing editor at info@staffordcountysun.com. I think I'll email and ask what they're going to do, and how they would feel if a batter spouse, hiding out from an abusive husband, and only a self-defense pistol to protect her is found due to their listing and murdered.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 11-16-2011 at 10:09 AM.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

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  10. #10
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Though it's not 'nice' of me, I'd like to find out something about the author and make it public. He looks creepy to me, lol. Any ideas?

    You could possibly reach Tracy Bell managing editor at info@staffordcountysun.com. I think I'll email and ask what they're going to do, and how they would feel if a batter spouse, hiding out from an abusive husband, and only a self-defense pistol to protect her is found due to their listing and murdered.

    Thoughts?
    You could try, but previous experience says this will fall on deaf ears. This action in particular (publishing names of CHP holders) defies logic on so many levels it's hard to fully comprehend.

    I assume that their goal is to intimidate people with the threat of public exposure, and thus dissuade them from obtaining a CHP. However, if one were to take a moment and think it through... if a John Q. Public person is going to buy a gun in Virginia, wouldn't you want them to go through the additional steps (training) required to obtain the CHP? It would seem to me that the anti-gun crowd would prefer to have more gun owners on the record with the state via the CHP, since that information is readily available to LEOs every day, and does not require any tracking or hunting through old purchase records, and in the case of private sales, records that do not even exist of the transfer.

    Then there's the criminal element. Antis say they want to keep guns off the streets and out of the hands of criminals... so why on earth are they in favor of publishing a "shopping list" for where criminals can go, stake out a house, then break in and steal guns?

    But... antis are not noted for their logical thinking. These actions make them "feel" safer, so that's what they do.

    TFred

    P.S. On a related side note, I've occasionally suggested to anyone who may have an opportunity to interview a radical anti-gunner, pose them this question: "If Joe Smith has decided he is going to buy a gun in Virginia, would you rather him get a CHP for it, or just carry it openly?" I can only imagine the circuits frying in their brain as they try to come up with the least-objectionable answer from their point of view.

  11. #11
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    ....snip..

    I'm surprised that VA hasn't gotten this locked down yet. Newspapers pulling stunts like this got it done in FL quite a while ago
    In past years, Senator Saslaw's illegal "death star" committee killed many good bills, including ones that would have corrected this. He's lost his position of authority, so we should see improvement across the board.

    Hope the sound of Dueling Banjos keeps Saslaw up at night.
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  12. #12
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Sending this:
    ---------
    Tracy Bell
    Managing Editor
    Stafford County Sun

    Re: Stafford County Sun, a Media General Newspaper, printing a list of approximately 100 names of Stafford County residents who received a CHP during the month of September 2011. (Page 3 of the November 11-17 edition.)

    How would you and your paper feel if a battered spouse, hiding out from an abusive husband, and only a self-defense pistol to protect her is found due to their listing and murdered.

    I really want to know what you'd say to her surviving children. Maybe you'd eschew all responsibility and say 'get a better father'.

    How would you feel if CRIMINALS used your list to go to those person's houses and steal their guns and use them to murder someone? You're telling CRIMINALS where the guns are, unprotected in some cases (unlike a Gun shop with alarms and special storage safes).

    I'm just glad I don't live in Stafford where they allow IRRESPONSIBLE journalist practices like yours. You should be ashamed of yourselves.


    B. Johnson
    Spotsylvania
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 11-16-2011 at 09:26 PM.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

  13. #13
    Regular Member CHILINVLN's Avatar
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    ^ I understand your frustration and concern, but that response is really less than professional and full of personal anger. If I received that, I would ignore it and move on. I think you would be more successful by taking a more tactful and professional approach.

    Just my two cents.

  14. #14
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHILINVLN View Post
    ^ I understand your frustration and concern, but that response is really less than professional and full of personal anger. If I received that, I would ignore it and move on. I think you would be more successful by taking a more tactful and professional approach.

    Just my two cents.
    I disagree, Righteous Indignation is not the same an being Unprofessional. Things this sick deserve to come down off of the high-horse of so-called 'professionalism' and go bare knuckles.

    There is no replacement for a good old-fashioned ass kicking. Something I feel our society could use a lot more of... All the touchy-feely bullsh!t isn't working.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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  15. #15
    Regular Member mk4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    There is no replacement for a good old-fashioned ass kicking. Something I feel our society could use a lot more of... All the touchy-feely bullsh!t isn't working.
    +1000

  16. #16
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    What about trying to find out the names and addresses of all of the people who work for this "news" company and reporting that someplace where it is sure to be seen?

    I thought what they are doing is no longer legal... that the general assembly had passed a law preventing this sort of thing. Apparently I am wrong about this.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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  17. #17
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    What about trying to find out the names and addresses of all of the people who work for this "news" company and reporting that someplace where it is sure to be seen?

    I thought what they are doing is no longer legal... that the general assembly had passed a law preventing this sort of thing. Apparently I am wrong about this.
    The GA restricted their access to the information SouthernBoy, but it's still available from the Courts.

    Unfortunately, the names and info of CHP holders is public record and legal to publish but publishing the names and information of employees with the intent to harass, is a class one misdemeanor and if any of them are a Police Officer, a class 6 felony.

    Go Figure!
    And no, I don't have the cite and I'm sitting next to my ATV on a hill barely hitting a signal, so take it for what it's worth.
    Last edited by peter nap; 11-17-2011 at 08:01 AM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    What about trying to find out the names and addresses of all of the people who work for this "news" company and reporting that someplace where it is sure to be seen?

    I thought what they are doing is no longer legal... that the general assembly had passed a law preventing this sort of thing. Apparently I am wrong about this.
    The deceptive nature of the legislative process.* After the Roanoke Times fiasco, they did finally shut down access to the Virginia State Police database of ALL CHP-holders. But as PN notes, each local jurisdiction clerk of the court office has the information for anyone to go in and see, copy, publish to their heart's content.

    Sort of like closing half the hatches on a submarine... big deal, you're still gonna sink.

    TFred

    ETA: * Many people share your assumption on this. I went round and round with a local gun store employee a couple years ago, who insisted that CHP info was now private. Boy those gun store guys can sure be stubborn.
    Last edited by TFred; 11-17-2011 at 08:21 AM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    The deceptive nature of the legislative process.* After the Roanoke Times fiasco, they did finally shut down access to the Virginia State Police database of ALL CHP-holders. But as PN notes, each local jurisdiction clerk of the court office has the information for anyone to go in and see, copy, publish to their heart's content.

    Sort of like closing half the hatches on a submarine... big deal, you're still gonna sink.

    TFred

    ETA: * Many people share your assumption on this. I went round and round with a local gun store employee a couple years ago, who insisted that CHP info was now private. Boy those gun store guys can sure be stubborn.
    I've had similar discussions with CHP holders in my area.

    I have no dog in this fight as I don't have a VA CHP but this nonsense really needs to stop.
    Our legislator's need to have this nonsense stopped now!

    Find and contact your elected offical.
    http://conview.state.va.us/whosmy.nsf/main?openform
    Last edited by Marco; 11-17-2011 at 09:01 AM.
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  20. #20
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHILINVLN View Post
    ^ I understand your frustration and concern, but that response is really less than professional and full of personal anger. If I received that, I would ignore it and move on. I think you would be more successful by taking a more tactful and professional approach.

    Just my two cents.
    OK, well I'm open to input and toning it down, but I AM angry. When I was younger and felt immortal and invulnerable, I didn't care much but now, older, retired, lost a step or two, I see the whole thing in a different light and PEOPLE JUST DON'T GET IT. The reason to carry the people who need it are the young, the older folks (who are still capable but weaker), the weaker (females), and the disabled.

    WHY would someone want their grandmother who took the CHP to end up cowering in the back of a 7-11. They are just gaddammed STUPID pea-brains if they don't understand that. CHP is NOT ABOUT some 6'4 250 behemoth who people don't want carrying. They seek to prevent scary people and criminals from having guns and FORGET it's their wives and grandmothers who suffer if you can't carry. (/rant).

    So let me know what I should say in the letter to the editor (haven't sent it yet).
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

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  21. #21
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent19 View Post
    I've had similar discussions with CHP holders in my area.

    I have no dog in this fight as I don't have a VA CHP but this nonsense really needs to stop.
    Our legislator's need to have this nonsense stopped now!

    Find and contact your elected offical.
    http://conview.state.va.us/whosmy.nsf/main?openform
    Well....if you really want to get the ball rolling,
    We could do a survey on the number of Va Legislators and family who have CHP's

    Publish that information ....but just because we're better than they are, leave the address blank.
    Since they're public figures, it would be legal. It might be interesting to see whose wife has a CHP.

    The Va Watchdog did that with SSN's, the GA passed a law against her doing it, she sued and won in the Supreme Court and SSN's are now protected information.

  22. #22
    Regular Member streetdoc's Avatar
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    I call the Stafford listed phone posted above and complained and they referred me to their main publisher in Manassas "News and Messenger" that phone number is 703.368.3101. When I talked to their manager he stated as long as it remain public information he he an obligation to publish it.
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  23. #23
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by streetdoc View Post
    I call the Stafford listed phone posted above and complained and they referred me to their main publisher in Manassas "News and Messenger" that phone number is 703.368.3101. When I talked to their manager he stated as long as it remain public information he he an obligation to publish it.
    Well that's just an outright lie. How can you have an intelligent conversation with someone like that?

    TFred

  24. #24
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Thanks peter nap and TFred for the clarification on this. The idea of publishing the same information of legislators on the surface seems like a great idea, but I bet most all of the ones who have CHP's are on our side and I wouldn't want to ruffle the feathers of our supporters. I would be much more prone to going after the editors, publishers, and advertisers of the news agencies who printed this private (public??) information. How about publishing their names and addresses as they appear in the public records of real estate documents. Those are public and therefore open to presentation aren't they? Perhaps something might turn up that is a skeleton in one of their closets.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 11-17-2011 at 11:49 AM.
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  25. #25
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    How about publishing their names and addresses as they appear in the public records of real estate documents. Those are public and therefore open to presentation aren't they?
    Not only that, but according to the publisher, he has an obligation to print them!

    The question nobody can answer is this: Why are some licenses granted by the state public information, and other licenses granted by the state protected?

    Try calling up your favorite friendly police station and telling them that you would like to know who owns the car with a certain license plate number. They'll probably not even bother to laugh at you as they hang up the phone.

    TFred

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