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Thread: Vancouver, WA judge carries to court...uses lock box.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Vancouver, WA judge carries to court...uses lock box.

    A reported death threat has prompted a Clark County judge to exercise his second amendment rights.
    Following the alleged threat more than two weeks ago, Clark County Superior Court Judge John Wulle has started carrying a concealed .380-caliber Walther PPK most places he goes — except the courtroom. Wulle secures the gun in a locked box when he gets to work, though he still has the holster on his hip under his clothes during the day
    .

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    (
    note: I corrected the incorrect caliber)
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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    It's an American duty, it shouldnt take a death threat to make the comment... “What’s happening is I’m more conscious of my personal security, my family’s security.”

    Maybe Paul Hemke could talk him into just carrying a cell phone and calling the police if there is a problem....

    Little by little things will change and one at a time they will come around.
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    Apparently, this “What’s happening is I’m more conscious of my personal security, my family’s security.” only applies for judges in Vancouver??

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    Campaign Veteran OlGutshotWilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dadada View Post
    Apparently, this “What’s happening is I’m more conscious of my personal security, my family’s security.” only applies for judges in Vancouver??
    Funny......that's the first thought that crossed my mind too.
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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Did I read that right, that this judge is carrying a concealed pistol "most places he goes..." without a permit? I hope that "most places" only refers to his home and outdoor recreational activities, or while on his way to his gun club.

    Somehow, I don't think that's what its referring to.

    I don't see "Judge or Court Justice or anything else of the like anywhere in the exceptions of 9.41.060. Apparently this judge seems to have decided that RCW 9.41.050 doesn't apply to him. How handy to have that kind of pull, and arrogance.

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    Campaign Veteran ak56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCDH View Post
    Did I read that right, that this judge is carrying a concealed pistol "most places he goes..." without a permit? I hope that "most places" only refers to his home and outdoor recreational activities, or while on his way to his gun club.

    Somehow, I don't think that's what its referring to.

    I don't see "Judge or Court Justice or anything else of the like anywhere in the exceptions of 9.41.060. Apparently this judge seems to have decided that RCW 9.41.050 doesn't apply to him. How handy to have that kind of pull, and arrogance.
    The article said that the Sheriff told him he should get a concealed weapons permit. I didn't see anything in the article that indicated he did not do so.

    Nick, good job in the comments section of the article!
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ak56 View Post
    The article said that the Sheriff told him he should get a concealed weapons permit. I didn't see anything in the article that indicated he did not do so.
    If he did, does anyone want to wager on whether or not he had to wait the 30 days some jurisdictions force applicants to do?
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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Is it me, or is it just kinda stupid to publicize in the newspaper that you carry a CONCEALED firearm?!? AND, does the judge unload the gun every time he gets in his vehicle, since it was also publicized in the newspaper that he probably does not have a CPL?!? If the judge thinks he is getting extra deterrent value by making it public knowledge that he carries a concealed .380 then why doesn't he get a LARGER gun and open carry?

    I'm sorry, but I think this just kinda borderlines on stupidity....
    I am unsure of the motivation to write a story on this issue. Did the judge willingly agree to the story? Did the judge protest but the paper have it in for the judge?

    Does the judge have a CPL or is he getting one?

    And to many of the comments on the website I posed the same response to your last question, just open carry...it's a better deterrent.
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    OC or CC, I'm happy to see one more honest person carry.

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    Clark Co. judge’s carry decision makes news, but why?

    This week’s revelation by the Vancouver Columbian that a Clark County Superior Court judge has decided to carry a defensive firearm nearly everywhere but the courtroom has stirred considerable public interest.

    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...s-news-but-why

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Workman View Post
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    Clark Co. judge’s carry decision makes news, but why?

    This week’s revelation by the Vancouver Columbian that a Clark County Superior Court judge has decided to carry a defensive firearm nearly everywhere but the courtroom has stirred considerable public interest.

    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...s-news-but-why
    Thanks Dave, you are too kind.
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    Times have changed too quickly...

    15 years ago (seems like yesterday) I was a prosecutor in a small county. I was talking with the judge before court, and as he was getting ready to put on his robes he inserted a mag into his Smith, racked the slide, made sure it was safe, holstered it, and clipped it to his belt.

    I asked him if he'd mind if I carried in court, too. He said it was fine with him - he was only worried about bad guys carrying in court, and figured one more armed good guy was a good thing. (LEO's rarely appeared at traffic court or arraignment - they hung out 2 floors down)

    Sadly, he's retired now - haven't been able to carry in court since.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Thanks Dave, you are too kind.
    Kindness has nothing to do with it.

    I just wanted to make sure everyone here knew who to blame when this story goes south on us.

    :-)

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Where in the RCW's or RCW 9.41.300 provide an exception for a Judge, Prosecutor or Attorney for that matter to carry into a court?

    9.41.300(1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:
    (b) Those areas in any building which are used in connection with court proceedings, including courtrooms, jury rooms, judge's chambers, offices and areas used to conduct court business, waiting areas, and corridors adjacent to areas used in connection with court proceedings. The restricted areas do not include common areas of ingress and egress to the building that is used in connection with court proceedings, when it is possible to protect court areas without restricting ingress and egress to the building. The restricted areas shall be the minimum necessary to fulfill the objective of this subsection (1)(b).
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Where in the RCW's or RCW 9.41.300 provide an exception for a Judge, Prosecutor or Attorney for that matter to carry into a court?
    Dave, I think you're mixing up two stories. The original post says that the judge leaves his firearm in a lockbox. The commenter said that "many years ago" he carried. I think we can safely assume that either this pre-dated the law prohibiting firearms in court, or that he was working in another state.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCR View Post
    15 years ago (seems like yesterday) I was a prosecutor in a small county. I was talking with the judge before court, and as he was getting ready to put on his robes he inserted a mag into his Smith, racked the slide, made sure it was safe, holstered it, and clipped it to his belt.

    I asked him if he'd mind if I carried in court, too. He said it was fine with him - he was only worried about bad guys carrying in court, and figured one more armed good guy was a good thing. (LEO's rarely appeared at traffic court or arraignment - they hung out 2 floors down)

    Sadly, he's retired now - haven't been able to carry in court since.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Where in the RCW's or RCW 9.41.300 provide an exception for a Judge, Prosecutor or Attorney for that matter to carry into a court?

    9.41.300(1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:
    (b) Those areas in any building which are used in connection with court proceedings, including courtrooms, jury rooms, judge's chambers, offices and areas used to conduct court business, waiting areas, and corridors adjacent to areas used in connection with court proceedings. The restricted areas do not include common areas of ingress and egress to the building that is used in connection with court proceedings, when it is possible to protect court areas without restricting ingress and egress to the building. The restricted areas shall be the minimum necessary to fulfill the objective of this subsection (1)(b).
    Quote Originally Posted by heresolong View Post
    Dave, I think you're mixing up two stories. The original post says that the judge leaves his firearm in a lockbox. The commenter said that "many years ago" he carried. I think we can safely assume that either this pre-dated the law prohibiting firearms in court, or that he was working in another state.
    No heresolong, maybe I should have quoted the post by DCR, I did as you and other noticed in the OP the Judge was securing his firearm before entering the restricted areas.
    Though in the comment by DCR it was a Judge was carrying in the Court Chambers and Court both prohibited by RCW and DCR as a prosecutor as well being in the same violation, maybe there is a privileged class?
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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Dave...no...

    DCR lists no location...could be from anywhere...and RCW not apply.....

    (Also, consider DCR has started only 3 posts since 2008, all in the Idaho forum and reading those 3 posts seems to have local knowledge of Idaho politics)
    Last edited by gogodawgs; 11-19-2011 at 06:41 PM.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCR View Post
    15 years ago (seems like yesterday)

    • I was talking with the judge before court, and as he was getting ready to put on his robes he inserted a mag into his Smith, racked the slide, made sure it was safe, holstered it, and clipped it to his belt.
    • I asked him if he'd mind if I carried in court, too. He said it was fine with him.
    • He was only worried about bad guys carrying in court, and figured one more armed good guy was a good thing.
    • Sadly, he's retired now - haven't been able to carry in court since.
    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Dave...no...

    DCR lists no location...could be from anywhere...and RCW not apply.....
    This is posted in the Washington State forum and with out a statement of being else where one is to believe it was in this State.
    There are several references to before court to in court on about each sentence he wrote, so yes the RCW's do apply.
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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    This is posted in the Washington State forum and with out a statement of being else where one is to believe it was in this State.
    There are several references to before court to in court on about each sentence he wrote, so yes the RCW's do apply.
    No, I am afraid you are the only one to believe that it is IN Washington State. I took it as a story from a different time and a different state.

    This is a clear example of why you frustrate people on this forum. You and you alone are trying to parse words to find something illegal when there is absolutely 100% no proof of their being anything illegal.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    No, I am afraid you are the only one to believe that it is IN Washington State. I took it as a story from a different time and a different state.

    This is a clear example of why you frustrate people on this forum. You and you alone are trying to parse words to find something illegal when there is absolutely 100% no proof of their being anything illegal.
    What Forum are we in? Stories From the State of Washington in a thread about Vancouver, WA judge carries to court...uses lock box.
    As with the vast majority of others when they discuss issues in another State they will stay in context of that State or make a statement of what State they are referring to.

    Would it not be illegal for a Judge or Prosecutor in the State of Washington to carry a firearm in the Judges Chambers or Court? Can YOU CITE where they are legal to do so? Or is this just another pi$$ing contest because someone quoted another members post that if it was outside of Washington it should have been stated or the fact they are wrong for carrying into a court where prohibited by law?

    Oh and psst "you do not speak for everyone"

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    Last edited by BigDave; 11-19-2011 at 09:12 PM. Reason: added approved by Gogodawgs Stamp
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Where in the RCW's or RCW 9.41.300 provide an exception for a Judge, Prosecutor or Attorney for that matter to carry into a court?
    I would look at 9.41.300(9)

    Subsection (1)(c) of this section does not apply to any administrator or employee of the facility or to any person who, upon entering the place or facility, directly and promptly proceeds to the administrator of the facility or the administrator's designee and obtains written permission to possess the firearm while on the premises.
    Does one think that the "administrator" would deny permission to the Judge? As for the Prosecutor, they are usually considered to be "Law Enforcement" in many jurisdictions. Regardless, they to would just get permission from the "administrator".

    While not specifically named, a Judge and Prosecutor are covered. In the case of the Attorney, if the Judge says OK, who's going to disagree??
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    Amlevin has it.
    The administrator could be, or is, the presiding judge. He/she can set guidelines for the judges.

    I believe many here are missing the point, however, for the sake of debating issues that may, or may not have anything to do with this directly, and in the interest of thumping their chests about gun rights for the elitists.

    The Judge in this case clearly is reported to have been locking his gun up when he is in court. Period. All this b.s. about packing in the courtroom has nothing to do with the story. Get over it.

    Gogodawgs used the opportunity splendidly to promote responsible gun ownership and carrying firearms for personal protection in the reader feedback section of the Vancouver Columbian. BRAVO! His remarks here have a direct connection with the story there. I did a column on it. I thought I made it clear right up front that the judge wasn't packing in the courtroom.

    Two paragraphs later, I noted that — depending upon the jurisdiction — judges carry in courtrooms. I didn't mean THIS judge or THIS jurisdiction, though it would be possible for the reasons stated above.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Workman View Post
    Two paragraphs later, I noted that — depending upon the jurisdiction — judges carry in courtrooms. I didn't mean THIS judge or THIS jurisdiction, though it would be possible for the reasons stated above.
    It only takes the reading of an article like this

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in679651.shtml

    for some judges to carry into the courtroom. I'm sure that there are more than a few that unlike this Judge, don't rely totally on the Bailiff or Police officers in the Courtroom to defend them.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Amlevin and Workman, One must take a look at this section a little closer (9) is an exception for Sub Section (1)(c) only not the entire code. (1)(c) is dealing with public mental health not the courts nor a Judge or Prosecutor.
    The administrator or his designee being addressed here are of those Mental Facilities and again not the courts.

    (1)(c) The restricted access areas of a public mental health facility certified by the department of social and health services for inpatient hospital care and state institutions for the care of the mentally ill, excluding those facilities solely for evaluation and treatment. Restricted access areas do not include common areas of egress and ingress open to the general public;

    (9) Subsection (1)(c) of this section does not apply to any administrator or employee of the facility or to any person who, upon entering the place or facility, directly and promptly proceeds to the administrator of the facility or the administrator's designee and obtains written permission to possess the firearm while on the premises.
    So we look at RCW 9.41.300 to see if there are exceptions listed for the carry of firearms into the courts and the only exception that is there is (7) Subsection (1)(a), (b), (c), and (e) which deals with Corrections Officers

    (7) Subsection (1)(a), (b), (c), and (e) of this section does not apply to correctional personnel or community corrections officers, as long as they are employed as such, who have completed government-sponsored law enforcement firearms training, except that subsection (1)(b) of this section does apply to a correctional employee or community corrections officer who is present at a courthouse building as a party to an action under chapter 10.14, 10.99, or 26.50 RCW, or an action under Title 26 RCW where any party has alleged the existence of domestic violence as defined in RCW 26.50.010.
    So the law states;

    RCW9.41.300(1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:

    (b) Those areas in any building which are used in connection with court proceedings, including courtrooms, jury rooms, judge's chambers, offices and areas used to conduct court business, waiting areas, and corridors adjacent to areas used in connection with court proceedings. The restricted areas do not include common areas of ingress and egress to the building that is used in connection with court proceedings, when it is possible to protect court areas without restricting ingress and egress to the building. The restricted areas shall be the minimum necessary to fulfill the objective of this subsection (1)(b).

    There is no exception to carry into a courtroom except for Law Enforcement, Corrections Officers while on duty, No Judge, No Prosecutor.
    Last edited by BigDave; 11-20-2011 at 02:15 PM.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Workman View Post
    Amlevin has it.
    The administrator could be, or is, the presiding judge. He/she can set guidelines for the judges.
    Guidelines, yes, legislate from the Bench, NO! This is under State Preemption as the state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state

    I believe many here are missing the point, however, for the sake of debating issues that may, or may not have anything to do with this directly, and in the interest of thumping their chests about gun rights for the elitists. As you thump on your chest

    The Judge in this case clearly is reported to have been locking his gun up when he is in court. Period. All this b.s. about packing in the courtroom has nothing to do with the story. Get over it.
    My response was in reference to a post made by DCR which he has his right to respond to this or any other thread as I do

    Gogodawgs used the opportunity splendidly to promote responsible gun ownership and carrying firearms for personal protection in the reader feedback section of the Vancouver Columbian. BRAVO! His remarks here have a direct connection with the story there. I did a column on it. I thought I made it clear right up front that the judge wasn't packing in the courtroom.
    No disagreement here, however some threads take on other aspects, last I looked it did not need your approval to do so.

    Two paragraphs later, I noted that — depending upon the jurisdiction — judges carry in courtrooms. I didn't mean THIS judge or THIS jurisdiction, though it would be possible for the reasons stated above.
    Sorry Dave, you are mistaken, the portion I believe you are reading as I explained in an earlier post, your reference is to an exception of RCW 9.41.300 that deals with Mental Facilities not the Courts.
    As for the record my view on the issue of the Judge in Vancouver, WA. carrying and checking his firearm when coming into the designated restricted areas as everyone should and as to Nicks response on the Columbian Newspaper were good and supportive of being legally armed.
    Then the implication of another Judge and Prosecutor feel they have the authority to carry in these restricted areas is bull and I asked if anyone could show where they legally could and what came was personal attacks and misquotes.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
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    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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