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Thread: Gun in a vehicle on school grounds

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    Gun in a vehicle on school grounds

    There's been some confusion about having a gun on school property.
    We know you can't carry open or concealed (outside of struck rules) on the grounds.

    Some have said you can't have one in a car.

    I reviewed 648/61 and it looks like you can have it in a car unloaded and in case, or a locked rack. Anything I am missing?

    Thanks.


    (2) Possession of firearm in school zone. (a) Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone is guilty of a Class I felony.
    (b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm:
    ...
    3. That is not loaded and is:
    948.605 Note a. Encased; or
    948.605 Note b. In a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

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    You have it correct, you can possess them unloaded and encased or in a lockable rack. You cannot 'carry' open, concealed, with or without a CC license.

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    Thank you!

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    Don't Think So

    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    You have it correct, you can possess them unloaded and encased or in a lockable rack. You cannot 'carry' open, concealed, with or without a CC license.
    Not on school grounds. A regular citizen may not possess a firearm on school grounds, with or without a license, regardless of whether it is loaded or not, encased or not, in a locked container or not. Remember you have to comply with both federal and state law. What you suggest violates Wis. Stat. 948.605. I am not talking about the hunting exception, the school program exception or the contractual employment exception.

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    apjonas,
    Possession is allowed on school grounds. See subparagraph 948.605(2)(b)3 cited below


    Quote Originally Posted by ksks View Post
    There's been some confusion about having a gun on school property.
    We know you can't carry open or concealed (outside of struck rules) on the grounds.

    Some have said you can't have one in a car.

    I reviewed 648/61 and it looks like you can have it in a car unloaded and in case, or a locked rack. Anything I am missing?

    ...
    Your citation statute # was goofed up. The conclusion was correct, with respect to possession of a firearm (for a non-LEO/ non-contractor person) on School (grades 1-12) Grounds. Unloaded and properly cased/locked is what's legal. Wisconsin Statute 948.605 has some variance with Federal GFSZ Law. http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-...p44-sec922.pdf

    18USC922(q)(2)(B)(iii) that is—
    (I) not loaded; and
    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
    The above Federal GFSZ code uses "locked container" instead of "encased" like Wisconsin 948.605 does. Complying with the above Federal law, will also comply with Wisconsin 948.605. You might want to beware of where you put that case, to avoid getting in trouble with 941.23 "Carrying concealed weapon" prohibitions for not having it out of reach. https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...tes/941/III/23 That is discussed in other topics.

    Here's a citation of the entire section 948.605 as of Nov. 1, 2011:
    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...atutes/948/605

    948.605  Gun-free school zones.

    (1)  Definitions. In this section:
    _ (a) "Encased" has the meaning given in s. 167.31 (1) (b).
    _ (ac) "Firearm" does not include any beebee or pellet-firing gun that expels a projectile through the force of air pressure or any starter pistol.
    _ (am) "Motor vehicle" has the meaning given in s. 340.01 (35).
    _ (b) "School" has the meaning given in s. 948.61 (1) (b).
    _ (c) "School zone" means any of the following:
    ___ 1. In or on the grounds of a school.
    ___ 2. Within 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school.

    (2) Possession of firearm in school zone.
    _ (a) Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is in or on the grounds of a school is guilty of a Class I felony. Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school is subject to a Class B forfeiture.

    _ (b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm by any of the following:
    ___ 1m. A person who possesses the firearm in accordance with 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (i), (iv), (v), (vi), or (vii).
    ___ 1r. Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).
    ___ 2m. A state-certified commission warden acting in his or her official capacity.
    ___ 3. That is not loaded and is:
    ____ a. Encased; or
    ____ b. In a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

    ___ 3m. A person who is legally hunting in a school forest if the school board has decided that hunting may be allowed in the school forest under s. 120.13 (38).
    This allowance for having an unloaded and encased OR unloaded and in a locked motor vehicle firearms rack, was in the Wisconsin statute before the changes Nov. 1, 2011, from ACT35. So this text is not IN ACT35, because it was already in the law. Do not make the mistake of just reading ACT35 and thinking that you have looked at ALL the current firearms law.

    You should make SURE that if you have the firearm unloaded and in a case, that it is NOT within your reach, or you could run afoul of the Wisconsin Carrying Concealed Weapon Statute 941.23 which has been discussed a lot elsewhere.

    -------

    ATTENTION: after reading some comments, I thought it would be appropriate to clear up, a confusing portion of the statute. It involves subdivision 948.605(2)(b) 1r. which is part of a list of persons/situations that the felony/forfeiture doesn't apply to.

    948.605 (2)(b) 1r. Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).
    That subdivision above would be easier to understand, and have the same meaning, if it were written more like this:

    1r. A licensee, as defined in ..., except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school.

    Then, it would be clearer to most readers, that the class I felony (for possessing a firearm in/on school grounds) or the Class B forfeiture (for possessing a firearm in the doughnut from 0-1000 ft. from the school grounds), does not apply to:

    A licensee that is not in or on the school grounds.

    BOTTOM LINE:

    If a licensee or non-licensee wants to possess a firearm on school grounds, they will first have to unload, then encase or Lock in a case or Lock in a motor vehicle rack.

    WI 948.605 (2)(b)3 allows all 3 ways to enclose the firearm.

    18USC922(q)(2)(B)(iii) only allows the Locked case or the Locked in a motor vehicle rack.

    No Open or Concealed Carry is allowed on school grounds.
    Last edited by E6chevron; 03-29-2012 at 02:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    Not on school grounds. A regular citizen may not possess a firearm on school grounds, with or without a license, regardless of whether it is loaded or not, encased or not, in a locked container or not. Remember you have to comply with both federal and state law. What you suggest violates Wis. Stat. 948.605. I am not talking about the hunting exception, the school program exception or the contractual employment exception.
    Could you please explain the bold section? I read it that a license would allow for carry on school grounds....but I've been wrong before


    (2) Possession of firearm in school zone.
    _ (a) Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is in or on the grounds of a school is guilty of a Class I felony. Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school is subject to a Class B forfeiture.

    _ (b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm by any of the following:
    _ (b) 1m. A person who possesses the firearm in accordance with 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (i), (iv), (v), (vi), or (vii).
    ____ 1r. Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).
    ____ 2m. A state-certified commission warden acting in his or her official capacity.
    ____ 3. That is not loaded and is:
    ____ 3.a. Encased; or
    _____ b. In a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
    States don’t have rights. People do.

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    What about;
    You should get clarification on that if your intructor told you that. According to the written law; 948.61(3) (3) This section does not apply to any person who: ....
    948.61(3)(e) (e) Drives a motor vehicle in which a dangerous weapon is located onto school premises for school-sanctioned purposes or for the purpose of delivering or picking up passengers or property. The weapon may not be removed from the vehicle or be used in any manner.

    This has to do with being on school property.

    2) Possession of firearm in school zone. 948.605(2)(a)(a) Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is in or on the grounds of a school is guilty of a Class I felony. Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school is subject to a Class B forfeiture.
    948.605(2)(b) (b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm by any of the following:
    948.605(2)(b)1m. 1m. A person who possesses the firearm in accordance with 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (i), (iv), (v), (vi), or (vii).
    948.605(2)(b)1r. 1r. Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).

    INAL, but this means to me that I can have my concealed firearm on my person as long as I do not leave my car. Example, I am going to pick up my daughter from school, I pull into the parking lot where she is waiting for me. I have my sidearm secured, she gets in and I leave the premises with out exiting my car. To me that is the exact description the law states in 948.61 (3)e.
    Last edited by bigdaddy1; 11-20-2011 at 08:20 PM.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    mrjam2jab,

    The phrasing of that subdivision is tricky, I updated my earlier post to better explain it.

    bigdaddy1,

    Please lookup the title of section 948.61 https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...tatutes/948/61 and if it is "Dangerous Weapons other than firearms on school premises" post back here and tell me what those excerpts from it have to do with the current topic: "Gun-in-a-vehicle-on-school-grounds".

    I don't see the relevance of 948.61 to this topic.

    My interpretation of subparagraph 948.605(2)(b)1r. is correct. The only mention of "vehicle" or "automobile" anywhere in section 948.605 is here:

    948.605(1)(am) "Motor vehicle" has the meaning given in s. 340.01 (35).

    ...

    948.605(2)(b)(3) b. In a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
    ---------------

    You might try looking at WI DOJ concealed carry FAQ. http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/...q-20111020.pdf (it actually was last updated Nov. 8, 2011)

    towards the middle of page -37 - is a paragraph:

     A person who is a CCW licensee or out-of-state CCW licensee may possess a firearm within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school, but not in or on school grounds. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(b)1r.
    If it still seems fuzzy...

    Can a person with a CCW license or out-of-state CCW license carry a concealed weapon in or on school grounds?

    As noted above, no. The law does not allow a CCW licensee to carry a firearm, concealed or openly displayed, in or on school grounds unless one of the other statutory exceptions listed above exists and then only when in compliance with those exceptions. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(b)1r.
    They agree with my interpretation.
    Last edited by E6chevron; 03-29-2012 at 02:51 AM.
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    2011 Wis. ACT 51 - Firearms, Bows & Crossbows in Vehicles - Questions & Answers
    Corrections: A number of the answers provided below were revised on 11-10-11 to clarify that it remains illegal to place a loaded long gun (rifles, shotguns, and muzzleloaders) inside any vehicle. A loaded long gun may only be placed on the top or exterior of a stationary motor vehicle, or leaned against a stationary motor vehicle.

    Q1: Do firearms still have to be in a case before they are placed in or on a motorized vehicle, including ATVs, UTVs, snowmobiles and farm implements?

    A: No. Effective Nov. 19, 2011 for rifles, shotguns and muzzleloaders, and Nov. 1, 2011 for handguns, firearms no longer have to be in a case in order to place them in or on a vehicle, or to transport them unloaded in or on a vehicle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    2011 Wis. ACT 51 - Firearms, Bows & Crossbows in Vehicles - Questions & Answers
    Corrections: A number of the answers provided below were revised on 11-10-11 to clarify that it remains illegal to place a loaded long gun (rifles, shotguns, and muzzleloaders) inside any vehicle. A loaded long gun may only be placed on the top or exterior of a stationary motor vehicle, or leaned against a stationary motor vehicle.

    Q1: Do firearms still have to be in a case before they are placed in or on a motorized vehicle, including ATVs, UTVs, snowmobiles and farm implements?

    A: No. Effective Nov. 19, 2011 for rifles, shotguns and muzzleloaders, and Nov. 1, 2011 for handguns, firearms no longer have to be in a case in order to place them in or on a vehicle, or to transport them unloaded in or on a vehicle.
    That is not completely correct. Act51 made no changes to 948.605 Gun-Free School Zones. It did not change my above post, take a look at Act51: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/201...ed/acts/51.pdf
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    From DoJ faq concerning act 35:
    POSSESSION OF FIREARMS AND OTHER WEAPONS ON SCHOOL PROPERTY
    The new CCW statute repeals or restates portions of prior law regarding possessing a firearm in a school zone. The statute also differentiates between possession of a firearm in or on school grounds and possession within 1,000 feet of school grounds.
    A. Firearms
    Are there restrictions on carrying a firearm on school property?
    Yes. It is a felony for a person to knowingly possess a firearm (concealed or otherwise) on the grounds of a school. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(a).
    It is a forfeiture for a person to knowingly possess a firearm (concealed or otherwise) at a place that the person knows or has reasonable cause to believe is within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(a).
    What are the exceptions?
    There are a number of exceptions to the restrictions on possessing a firearm in or on school grounds or within 1,000 feet of school grounds.
    It is lawful to possess a firearm in or on the grounds of a school or within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school as follows:
     On private property that is not part of school grounds. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(b)1m and 18 USC 922(q)(2)(B)(i).
     For use in a program approved by a school in the school zone. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(b)1m and 18 USC 922(q)(2)(B)(iv).
    CCW FAQ 10/20/11
    - 37 -
     In accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(b)1m and 18 USC 922(q)(2)(B)(v).
     By a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(b)1m and 18 USC 922(q)(2)(B)(vi).
     The firearm is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on the school premises is authorized by school authorities. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(b)1m and 18 USC 922(q)(2)(B)(vii).
    The firearm is not loaded and is encased or in a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(b)3a and b.
     By a state-certified commission warden acting in his or her official capacity. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(b)2m.
     By a person legally hunting in a school forest if the school board has decided that hunting may be allowed in the school forest. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(b)3m.
     A person who is a CCW licensee or out-of-state CCW licensee may possess a firearm within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school, but not in or on school grounds. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(b)1r.
    Can a person with a CCW license or out-of-state CCW license carry a concealed weapon in or on school grounds?
    As noted above, no. The law does not allow a CCW licensee to carry a firearm, concealed or openly displayed, in or on school grounds unless one of the other statutory exceptions listed above exists and then only when in compliance with those exceptions. Wis. Stat. § 948.605(2)(b)1r.
    What is the definition of a school?
    ―School‖ is defined as ―a public school, parochial or private school, or tribal school, as defined in s. 115.001(15m), which provides an educational program for one or more grades between grades 1 and 12 and which is commonly known as an elementary school, middle school, junior high school, senior high school, or high school.‖ Wis. Stat. §§ 948.605(1)(b), 948.61(1)(b).

    Bolded As of Nov. 19 ,2011 it is no longer required by state statute that a firearm be encased when in a vehicle.



    Now enters the confusion:

    B. Other weapons
    Are there limits on possessing other weapons on school premises?
    Yes. It is a crime to possess a dangerous weapon (other than a firearm or BB or pellet gun) on or in any school building, school grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated for school administration. Wis. Stat. § 948.61.
    School is defined as a public, parochial or private, or tribal school that provides educational programs for one or more grades between grades 1 and 12 (elementary, middle, junior high and high school). Wis. Stat. 948.61(1)(b).
    What are the exceptions?
    The following are exceptions to the prohibition on possessing dangerous weapons on school premises by the following persons:
     A person who uses a weapon solely for school sanctioned purposes. Wis. Stat. § 948.61(3)(a).
     A person who engages in military activities sponsored by the federal or state government when acting in the discharge of his or her official duties. Wis. Stat. § 948.61(3)(b).
     A person who Is a law enforcement officer or state certified commission warden acting in the discharge of his or her official duties. Wis. Stat. § 948.61(3)(c).
     A person who is participating in a convocation authorized by school authorities in which weapons of collectors or instructors are handled or displayed. Wis. Stat. § 948.61(3)(d).
    A person who drives a motor vehicle in which a dangerous weapon is located onto school premises for school sanctioned purposes or for the purpose of delivering or picking up passengers or property if the weapon is not removed from the vehicle or used in any way. Wis. Stat. § 948.61(3)(e). A person who possesses or uses a bow and arrow or knife while legally hunting in a school forest if the school board has decided that hunting may be allowed in the school forest. Wis. Stat. § 948.61(3)(f).
    Can a person with a CCW license carry a concealed weapon other than a firearm on school premises?
    Generally no, unless the licensee falls within one of the exceptions listed above. Wis. Stat. § 948.61(2) and (3).


    Definition of weapon as contained in 175.60

    (j) "Weapon" means a handgun, an electric weapon, as defined in s. 941.295 (1c) (a), a knife other than a switchblade knife under s. 941.24, or a billy club.

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    Captain Nemo,

    You did a lot of cut and paste. Did Act51 change 948.605 ? NO.

    As your Cut and paste indicates, OTHER WEAPONS involve weapons that aren't firearms. Why are you pasting that?

    As the disclaimers in the FAQ's indicate, the Wisconsin Statutes are what you need to rely on for the best legal information.
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    Does school grounds include the sidewalk in front of the school? Wondering if it would be legal to CC with license on the walking path near my house. It is technically on road right of way but also school property.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    What about;
    You should get clarification on that if your intructor told you that. According to the written law; 948.61(3) (3) This section does not apply to any person who: ....
    948.61(3)(e) (e) Drives a motor vehicle in which a dangerous weapon is located onto school premises for school-sanctioned purposes or for the purpose of delivering or picking up passengers or property. The weapon may not be removed from the vehicle or be used in any manner.

    This has to do with being on school property.

    2) Possession of firearm in school zone. 948.605(2)(a)(a) Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is in or on the grounds of a school is guilty of a Class I felony. Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school is subject to a Class B forfeiture.
    948.605(2)(b) (b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm by any of the following:
    948.605(2)(b)1m. 1m. A person who possesses the firearm in accordance with 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (i), (iv), (v), (vi), or (vii).
    948.605(2)(b)1r. 1r. Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).

    INAL, but this means to me that I can have my concealed firearm on my person as long as I do not leave my car. Example, I am going to pick up my daughter from school, I pull into the parking lot where she is waiting for me. I have my sidearm secured, she gets in and I leave the premises with out exiting my car. To me that is the exact description the law states in 948.61 (3)e.
    I have to agree, that's how I read it. i've been stewing over this and opening window after window after window trying to figure out the strings of this twisted web, but i still seem to come to the same conclusion that i have to agree with the above. as long as i don't leave my vehicle, and am only there to drop off/pick up my child, i can stay armed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scorpio_vette View Post
    I have to agree, that's how I read it. i've been stewing over this and opening window after window after window trying to figure out the strings of this twisted web, but i still seem to come to the same conclusion that i have to agree with the above. as long as i don't leave my vehicle, and am only there to drop off/pick up my child, i can stay armed.
    No you may not. 948.61(3)(e) is titled "Dangerous weapons other than firearms on school premises" that means it is irrelevant regarding firearms. If the weapon you are carrying is a firearm, it has zero to do with you. Ignore 948.61(3)(e) for the purposes of carrying a firearm. [quote]948.61 Dangerous weapons other than firearms on
    school premises.
    (1) In this section:
    (a) “Dangerous weapon” has the meaning specified in s.939.22 (10), except “dangerous weapon” does not include any
    firearm
    and does include any beebee or pellet−firing gun that expels a projectile through the force of air pressure or any starter pistol.

    Regarding 948.605(2)(b)ir, there is an exception to the exception. The exception is for a licensee Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school. In other words, just as every FAQ explains and as common sense dictates in addition to the cryptic verbage, a licensee may carry in a school zone buy may NOT carry in a school or on the grounds of a school unless they qualify for one of the other exceptions. If you drive your car onto the grounds of a school including a parking lot while carrying a firearm, you are violating the Statute and may loose your WI carry license along with potentially being able to get a non-resident permit from another State if were convicted of a firearm violation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by samsam View Post
    Does school grounds include the sidewalk in front of the school? Wondering if it would be legal to CC with license on the walking path near my house. It is technically on road right of way but also school property.
    If the city maintains the sidewalk then it is part of the public right-of-way and you may carry. If the School District maintains the sidewalk then it is part of school grounds. This is the opinion of a City Attorney as expressed to me.

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    Opinions are like....

    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    If the city maintains the sidewalk then it is part of the public right-of-way and you may carry. If the School District maintains the sidewalk then it is part of school grounds. This is the opinion of a City Attorney as expressed to me.
    This might be a useful rule-of-thumb for some purposes but not in a situation where your liberty may be at risk. Who maintains a particular piece of real estate does not determine who owns it. Furthermore the identity of the owner may suggest but does not necessarily determine whether or not it is part of "school grounds." Of course, a reasonable belief that a sidewalk, etc. is not part of school grounds may be a useful defense but by that time you are already facing a judge and I am quite sure that your City Attorney acquaintance won't be there to defend you. In fact - he may be at the other table. Be cautious...

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    Seems like a flawed argument anyway. I don't own the sidewalk in front of my house - the city does. Yet I'm responsible for snow and ice removal. That simple act of maintenance does not give me an ownership claim. If someone decided to set up a lawnchair on the sidewalk in front of my house and sit there all day, they're not trespassing and I can't force them to leave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    ... Who maintains a particular piece of real estate does not determine who owns it. Furthermore the identity of the owner may suggest but does not necessarily determine whether or not it is part of "school grounds." ...
    I appreciate your input but we are not discussing ownership. The city does not "own" any sidewalks unless they are adjacent to city property. The school district owns the land under the sidewalk just as you would for one in front of your home. In front of your home, the sidewalk is not private property even though you "own" it (the land under it). Most all sidewalks bordering schools are not school grounds and are part of the public right-of way the same as one in front of your home. It would be the very rare exception for a sidewalk to be part of school grounds.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTolerance View Post
    Seems like a flawed argument anyway. I don't own the sidewalk in front of my house - the city does. Yet I'm responsible for snow and ice removal. That simple act of maintenance does not give me an ownership claim. If someone decided to set up a lawnchair on the sidewalk in front of my house and sit there all day, they're not trespassing and I can't force them to leave.
    You do own the sidewalk. The city does not own the streets or the sidewalks but they are part of the public right-of-way. You have a deed for the land up to the center of the street but it is not your private property.

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    This Would Be Very Strange

    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    You do own the sidewalk. The city does not own the streets or the sidewalks but they are part of the public right-of-way. You have a deed for the land up to the center of the street but it is not your private property.
    At least in a modern subdivision plat. While there are always exceptions, a dedication by the land developer to the public for a street/sidewalk etc. vests the municipality with title. The lot line is generally a few feet from the edge of the roadway or just behind the sidewalk, if there is one. This makes sense in that the property owner has none of the typical rights associated with ownership whereas the local government could sell, destroy, rent, exclude others from the property in question (at least in theory). Check your plat/deed/whatever for details. The granting of a ROW or easement does not eliminate other rights of ownership. Prior to Act 35, could you carry concealed under the power line in the utility easement on your lot? Sure. Could you conceal carry in the middle of the street directly in front of your house on the theory that you were on your property? I think not. You own the former but not the latter. I think people confuse the duty to maintain the sidewalk (shovel snow, mow grass on the strip) or pay special assessments (to replace a broken sewer line) with ownership. I certainly could be mistaken and would be glad to hear input from a more knowledgeable person. I didn't raise the issue of ownership but am simply responding to it. The important point (as I understand it) is 'is place X part of "school grounds"?' I merely advance the idea that this question is not answered solely by (a) who maintains place X or (b) who has title to place X, although that information would be useful in making the determination.
    Last edited by apjonas; 07-03-2012 at 06:48 PM.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    .. While there are always exceptions, a dedication by the land developer to the public for a street/sidewalk etc. vests the municipality with title. The lot line is generally a few feet from the edge of the roadway or just behind the sidewalk, if there is one. This makes sense in that the property owner has none of the typical rights associated with ownership whereas the local government could sell, destroy, rent, exclude others from the property in question (at least in theory). ..
    No. The municipality does NOT have title to the land. The city/Municipality has ZERO land owner rights to the sidewalk or the planting strip in between the sidewalk and the street. The city does not even own the street. Streets and the accompanying sidewalks are part of the public-right-of way. The city oversees public right-of-ways within its borders but does not own/hold deed to, etc.
    This is the difference between private property and that which is not. Even though you hold deed to the ground underneath the sidewalk it is not your "private" property.
    Back when Open Carry first became a public awareness issue and then when we were planning the picnics I consulted both the city attorneys office and multiple private attorneys regarding this matter.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 07-03-2012 at 08:04 PM.

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    Here's a definition of private property from the Wisconsin "Trespass to land." Statute:

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...utes/943/II/13


    943.13(1e)(e) "Private property" means real property that is not owned by the United States, this state or a local governmental unit.
    The above statute paragraph existed prior to changes and additions to other parts of the statute from 11ACT35.
    Last edited by E6chevron; 07-03-2012 at 09:45 PM.
    Wis. CCL #5x Springfield XDM 3.8 Compact .40 S&W, Utah CFP

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E6chevron View Post
    Here's a definition of private property from the Wisconsin "Trespass to land." Statute:

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...utes/943/II/13




    The above statute paragraph existed prior to changes and additions to other parts of the statute from 11ACT35.
    This is irrelevant regarding a municipality posting for Open Carry. The Statute does not say "private property". It specifies "land of another"...
    943.13(1m)(b) Enters or remains on any land of another after having been notified by the owner or occupant not to enter or remain on the premises. This paragraph does not apply to a licensee or out-of-state licensee if the owner's or occupant's intent is to prevent the licensee or out-of-state licensee from carrying a firearm on the owner's or occupant's land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    ...This is the difference between private property and that which is not. Even though you hold deed to the ground underneath the sidewalk it is not your "private" property.
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    This is irrelevant regarding a municipality posting for Open Carry. The Statute does not say "private property". It specifies "land of another"...

    This thread is about Gun Free School Zones, which do not require posting, I was responding to your description of private property.
    Last edited by E6chevron; 07-04-2012 at 12:21 AM.
    Wis. CCL #5x Springfield XDM 3.8 Compact .40 S&W, Utah CFP

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