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Thread: Pepper Spray Police Put On Leave

  1. #1
    Activist Member carsontech's Avatar
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    Pepper Spray Police Put On Leave

    "Two University of California-Davis police officers have been placed on administrative leave after using pepper spray on Occupy Wall Street demonstrators on the campus on Friday, the Los Angeles Times reports."

    http://content.usatoday.com/communit...cupy-protest/1
    Last edited by carsontech; 11-21-2011 at 06:20 AM.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Put on administrative leave....hmmm. Here's what's going to happen: There will be an internal investigation, that investigation will be secret, it will clear the officers of any wrongdoing, the officers will be back on duty sooner than later. The department will create facts to assuage the concerns of the public. Of course they could do the right thing but the odds are a 1,000,000 to 1.

    Just look at that Canton, OH cop who still has a job after threatening to kill a guy...
    Last edited by thebigsd; 11-21-2011 at 07:13 AM.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Is anyone else cognizant of the problem being something other than that the cops used OC on the demonstrators?

    From every source I can access it is confirmed that the demonstrators were given a lawful order to leave. They disregarded that order. I'm even pretty much of the opinion that there was nothing necessarily heavy-handed about the order to leave, and there is no question in my mind that the order did nothing to violate any Constitutional rights. Given my limited experience in crowd/demonstration control I see the use of chemical agents as being lower on the force comntinuum, and thus less likely to cause serious or permanent injuries, than picking up and carrying away those who do not obey an order to leave. It also reduces the risk of injury to the person enforcing the order, although that is merely a secondaty benefit.

    From the moment the incident was reported facts were either distorted (that's a polite way of saying someone lied) or were ignored (a stronger way of saying someone lied) in order to create a justification for the action that had nothing to do with the actual order to leave. That, in my mind, is the crime that has been committed. Persons in charge (public officials or heads of private enterprises) who will intentionally lie in order to attempt to justify any action - be it legal or illegal - are contemptable and should be removed for failing to uphold the trust placed in them by those that put them in charge and the trust of those who they are in charge of.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    My fears are that these protestors are going to continue on until someone is killed during a melee.

    Be it civilian, or law enforcement officer, or 83-year-old lady...I have to wonder...will it all be worth the loss of a human life?

    Personally, I think not.
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    Regular Member Billy D's Avatar
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    I doubt the police had the lawfull rigt to order them to leave, what ever happened to the right to peacefull protest. I think those morons should occupy a job not the streets but o well, what the police did was outright assault with a weapon.
    My 2nd amedment rights trump some paranoid persons ignorance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    From every source I can access it is confirmed that the demonstrators were given a lawful order to leave.
    Citation? An order to not peacefully demonstrate in a public place and to leave that place is not a "lawful order to leave".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    Citation? An order to not peacefully demonstrate in a public place and to leave that place is not a "lawful order to leave".
    Depends, actually, on a number of things. Few of which have been reported (funny how they prefer to leave out key bits of info, in favor of always making somenone out to be some sort of "victim" without ever bothering to mention the preceeding).

    Did they obtain the needed-if any-permits to do what they were doing at the specific place they were doing it? (and, no, before you even bother, you cannot simply walk up and hold a protest wherever you feel like doing so)

    Were they-in the process of their "peaceful" demonstration- doing so in any way that blocked or obstructed passage through a given location?
    (They arent pickets on strike vs. a specific entity- and being governed in the rules of conducting said strike by the Labor Relations folks-) If they block a right-of-way, or intersection for traffic, or the entrance/fire exits of a building- shame on em. Cops can tell em where to go all day long.

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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Is anyone else cognizant of the problem being something other than that the cops used OC on the demonstrators?

    From every source I can access it is confirmed that the demonstrators were given a lawful order to leave. They disregarded that order. I'm even pretty much of the opinion that there was nothing necessarily heavy-handed about the order to leave, and there is no question in my mind that the order did nothing to violate any Constitutional rights. Given my limited experience in crowd/demonstration control I see the use of chemical agents as being lower on the force comntinuum, and thus less likely to cause serious or permanent injuries, than picking up and carrying away those who do not obey an order to leave. It also reduces the risk of injury to the person enforcing the order, although that is merely a secondaty benefit.

    From the moment the incident was reported facts were either distorted (that's a polite way of saying someone lied) or were ignored (a stronger way of saying someone lied) in order to create a justification for the action that had nothing to do with the actual order to leave. That, in my mind, is the crime that has been committed. Persons in charge (public officials or heads of private enterprises) who will intentionally lie in order to attempt to justify any action - be it legal or illegal - are contemptable and should be removed for failing to uphold the trust placed in them by those that put them in charge and the trust of those who they are in charge of.

    stay safe.
    Agree 100%

    The OWS group were given notice to leave before use was used. Some citations were given, however, all were requested to leave the private property they were converging on.

    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Depends, actually, on a number of things. Few of which have been reported (funny how they prefer to leave out key bits of info, in favor of always making somenone out to be some sort of "victim" without ever bothering to mention the preceeding).

    Did they obtain the needed-if any-permits to do what they were doing at the specific place they were doing it? (and, no, before you even bother, you cannot simply walk up and hold a protest wherever you feel like doing so)

    Were they-in the process of their "peaceful" demonstration- doing so in any way that blocked or obstructed passage through a given location?
    (They arent pickets on strike vs. a specific entity- and being governed in the rules of conducting said strike by the Labor Relations folks-) If they block a right-of-way, or intersection for traffic, or the entrance/fire exits of a building- shame on em. Cops can tell em where to go all day long.
    Very accurate. We don't know what they were told to do or requested to do. The media is only providing the small snippet to show LEO in the wrong.

    Many folks believe they are entitled to convene and demonstrate wherever they want. It ain't so, though.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilProGuy View Post
    My fears are that these protestors are going to continue on until someone is killed during a melee.

    Be it civilian, or law enforcement officer, or 83-year-old lady...I have to wonder...will it all be worth the loss of a human life?

    Personally, I think not.
    Which begs the question: What is the ultimate goal of the protest (whatever it may be), worth?

    The 'tea party' folk stand around, and hold up signs, then fizzle out. Productive protests are protests that push the limits, passively, just enough, that injury is inflicted on the passive protester(s) by the System (Government). Injury of passive protesters affects onlookers, and effects actions in response to seeing protesters beaten, pepper-sprayed, for doing nothing more than standing firm in their spot, and demanding 'change' take place. A bunch of sign-holding hillbillies ('tea party') standing around drinking coffee, and shooting the sh*t about so-called "Constitutional 'rights'" is a gathering, not a protest. The way the 'tea party' went about their so-called "protest" is half-hearted, weak, and deserved precisely what it achieved, NOTHING, but a fleeting time in Governance stonewalling, and pointing fingers - on the tax payers dime!
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 11-21-2011 at 02:51 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy D View Post
    I doubt the police had the lawfull rigt to order them to leave, what ever happened to the right to peacefull protest. I think those morons should occupy a job not the streets but o well, what the police did was outright assault with a weapon.
    I agree with you about the peaceful protest. All of this stuff reminds me of what happenened with Gandhi and the Indians in the 30s. You want to see a peaceful protest, those guys would, by the thousands, lay down on the ground surrounding one of the government buildings, forcing the workers to step on the protesters to get to work. You guys think the OWS protesters are hindering traffic? They have much to learn.

    As for occupying a job, I saw a statistic somewhere that about 80% of OWS protesters have a job, while only about 60% of the Tea Party protesters do. I thought that was in an interesting stat. Not sure how you could get that scientifically, though.

    edit: Not sure where to get the Tea Partiers, but here is OWS, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_...t#Demographics
    Last edited by SovereignAxe; 11-21-2011 at 05:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Depends, actually, on a number of things. Few of which have been reported (funny how they prefer to leave out key bits of info, in favor of always making somenone out to be some sort of "victim" without ever bothering to mention the preceeding).

    Did they obtain the needed-if any-permits to do what they were doing at the specific place they were doing it? (and, no, before you even bother, you cannot simply walk up and hold a protest wherever you feel like doing so)
    Public area of a university? Yeah, you can hold a protest there.

    Where in the CA constitution does it mention that a peaceful gathering for redress of grievances can have a required permit?
    CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION
    ARTICLE 1 DECLARATION OF RIGHTS


    SEC. 3. (a) The people have the right to instruct their
    representatives, petition government for redress of grievances, and
    assemble freely to consult for the common good.
    That's in addition to the federal constitution's bill of rights.

    Were they-in the process of their "peaceful" demonstration- doing so in any way that blocked or obstructed passage through a given location?
    (They arent pickets on strike vs. a specific entity- and being governed in the rules of conducting said strike by the Labor Relations folks-) If they block a right-of-way, or intersection for traffic, or the entrance/fire exits of a building- shame on em. Cops can tell em where to go all day long.
    This is where they were protesting:


    In the video, you see people walking about them. You see the cops stepping over them and them doing nothing to impede them. They were sitting there, peacefully protesting, not blocking blah blah blah...
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member Billy D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    Public area of a university? Yeah, you can hold a protest there.

    Where in the CA constitution does it mention that a peaceful gathering for redress of grievances can have a required permit?


    That's in addition to the federal constitution's bill of rights.



    In the video, you see people walking about them. You see the cops stepping over them and them doing nothing to impede them. They were sitting there, peacefully protesting, not blocking blah blah blah...
    Id like to see those cops get outright fired, along with the stupid 16 that abandoned thier post in Detroit last week.
    My 2nd amedment rights trump some paranoid persons ignorance.

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Which begs the question: What is the ultimate goal of the protest (whatever it may be), worth?

    The 'tea party' folk stand around, and hold up signs, then fizzle out. Productive protests are protests that push the limits, passively, just enough, that injury is inflicted on the passive protester(s) by the System (Government). Injury of passive protesters affects onlookers, and effects actions in response to seeing protesters beaten, pepper-sprayed, for doing nothing more than standing firm in their spot, and demanding 'change' take place. A bunch of sign-holding hillbillies ('tea party') standing around drinking coffee, and shooting the sh*t about so-called "Constitutional 'rights'" is a gathering, not a protest. The way the 'tea party' went about their so-called "protest" is half-hearted, weak, and deserved precisely what it achieved, NOTHING, but a fleeting time in Governance stonewalling, and pointing fingers - on the tax payers dime!
    At least none of the T.E.A. Party demonstrators were maced, kicked, slugged, arrested or booked.

    Just sayin'...there's a right way and a wrong way to do things; and every choice we make in life has it's own unique set of circumstances.
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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilProGuy View Post
    My fears are that these protestors are going to continue on until someone is killed during a melee.

    Be it civilian, or law enforcement officer, or 83-year-old lady...I have to wonder...will it all be worth the loss of a human life?

    Personally, I think not.
    Yes, the socialist movement backing this will push the occupiers into something very tragic. Sadly thatís how this slimy liberal/socialist movement operates, and without blinking will have the WH assigning blame elsewhere.



    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Which begs the question: What is the ultimate goal of the protest (whatever it may be), worth?
    So true, and I bet 99% of the self proclaimed 99% are clueless when asked, they will present everything from banning Cottage Cheese to spreading the word of Lunar Dust Worship. These boobs belong to the radical socialist movement, mindless liberal sheep, and are being used like a....

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Given my limited experience in crowd/demonstration control I see the use of chemical agents as being lower on the force comntinuum, and thus less likely to cause serious or permanent injuries, than picking up and carrying away those who do not obey an order to leave.
    I suspect your experience and training predates OC dispensers like the one shown being used at UC-Davis.

    I don't know the brand and model being used, but I can tell you that the Deftec Mk-9 dispenser that's in wide use has a minimum recommended distance of 6 feet (even for the cone spray as seen here, rather than stream spray). It is to be directed at the torso and upper chest, not at someone's eyes, no matter what the range.

    UCDPD Lt. Pike was directing the full blast at people's faces from as little as arm's length away, potentially causing permanent eye damage, and lasting injury or scarring to the skin. There was nothing restricting his movement; he was moving freely along a line of stationary targets who were offering no active resistance.

    Lt. Pike, the department, and the university would be likely to lose an excessive use of force suit, because either Lt. Pike was not properly trained nor adequately supervised in deploying this OC dispenser, or he ignored his training and violated the use of force policy.

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    Regular Member SirTiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilProGuy View Post
    At least none of the T.E.A. Party demonstrators were maced, kicked, slugged, arrested or booked.

    Just sayin'...there's a right way and a wrong way to do things; and every choice we make in life has it's own unique set of circumstances.
    People get maced, kicked, slugged, arrested and booked all the time. Does that mean they did something "wrong". Ugh, no.

    Lets be realistic here... The right way is a bias thing to say. For example... I don't think its right for my city to "take 3 feet of my yard to make a road wider, but they do.

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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    Yes, the socialist movement backing this will push the occupiers into something very tragic. Sadly thatís how this slimy liberal/socialist movement operates, and without blinking will have the WH assigning blame elsewhere.





    So true, and I bet 99% of the self proclaimed 99% are clueless when asked, they will present everything from banning Cottage Cheese to spreading the word of Lunar Dust Worship. These boobs belong to the radical socialist movement, mindless liberal sheep, and are being used like a....
    Why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?

    rofl, I can't even begin to debate the OWS movement with you if you think it's a socialist movement. One of the main facets of the OWS movement is to remove the influence of corporations from the government and restore democratic power to the voters/people. The other is to protect the fledgling middle class. If that's socialism, then h***s f****** bells, I guess I'm a socialist. To me, it sounds like America.

    But what do I know? I support the ideas behind the OWS and the TEA Party movements. I think both have good ideas to better this country. Reduced gov't spending, adherence to the constitution, reducing unemployment, greed, corruption, the national debt, and balancing the federal budget. These are all ideas we can get behind-at least I can.
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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Is anyone else cognizant of the problem being something other than that the cops used OC on the demonstrators?
    No.

    Even if what you surmise is correct, why did the paramilitary not just cuff them, pick them up, and put them in a van?

    You know, like every other time they arrest a group of people who refuse to stand up.

    The act of pepper spraying the demonstrators was an attack and served no other purpose.
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    SoverignAxe- Personaly, I find 'democracies' to be quite offensive.

    The system of laws under which we are ruled over with in the U.S.A. is called a Republic. There is no mention of the word democracy in The COTUS or The Declaration of Independence, for good reasons too.
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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SourKraut View Post
    SoverignAxe- Personaly, I find 'democracies' to be quite offensive.

    The system of laws under which we are ruled over with in the U.S.A. is called a Republic. There is no mention of the word democracy in The COTUS or The Declaration of Independence, for good reasons too.
    Offensive??? Don't get hurt over someone calling our government a democracy. Our government has changed to fit either of them pretty well. Besides the part of the supreme power vested in people.

    Democracy defined by dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democracy)

    de∑moc∑ra∑cy
    noun, plural -cies.
    1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
    2. a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies.
    3. a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.
    4. political or social equality; democratic spirit.
    5. the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.

    or

    Republic defined by dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/republic)
    re∑pub∑lic
    noun
    1. a state in which the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by representatives chosen directly or indirectly by them.
    2. any body of persons viewed as a commonwealth.
    3. a state in which the head of government is not a monarch or other hereditary head of state.

    And according to most sources:
    (http://lexrex.com/enlightened/Americ...ts/demrep.html)

    The a republic has protected rights that the majority (or anyone) can't take away from the minority (or anyone), but it seems like the rights of anyone can be swept away with the stroke of a pen. So maybe "democracy" describes our way better that "republic" does anymore. Mob rule effects us more often than the constitution does.
    Last edited by 09jisaac; 11-21-2011 at 11:13 PM.

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirTiger View Post


    Lets be realistic here... The right way is a bias thing to say.
    So...saying right and wrong is not "politically correct", eh?
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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SourKraut View Post
    SoverignAxe- Personaly, I find 'democracies' to be quite offensive.

    The system of laws under which we are ruled over with in the U.S.A. is called a Republic. There is no mention of the word democracy in The COTUS or The Declaration of Independence, for good reasons too.
    *facepalm*

    thank you, jisaac for setting that one straight.

    Also, I didn't say we were a democracy. I said "democratic power to the people," as in not with corporations. But to argue over using the term democracy to describe our country is asinine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SourKraut View Post
    SoverignAxe- Personaly, I find 'democracies' to be quite offensive.

    The system of laws under which we are ruled over with in the U.S.A. is called a Republic. There is no mention of the word democracy in The COTUS or The Declaration of Independence, for good reasons too.
    You must really hate local elections, since you find democracies to be offensive. Additionally, any constitutional amendment to the people must also provoke your ire.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member SirTiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilProGuy View Post
    So...saying right and wrong is not "politically correct", eh?
    Not what I'm saying. Do you really believe a permit would have been granted for month long protests in Zucotti (sp?) Park? cause I dont. Anyway, a statement to start... Not listening/ acting when the government tells you to do OR not to do something is not in itself illegal usually, I'm not advocating breaking the law (Duh.) But I assume your "right way" refers to OWS permits, attitude, and mentality or even general police encounters that you see on the news. All I'm saying is... It is not unheard of for a government entity to block out things thats my give them trouble or be unfavorable for the area. So Its difficult when you use such concrete terms like right and wrong as if you have it all figured out.

    Oh also, why would you think I am "PC" I hope you didnt come up with that little tid bit of info because of that triangle over there. That'd be a shame.

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