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Pepper Spray Police Put On Leave

thebigsd

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Messages
3,535
Location
Quarryville, PA
Put on administrative leave....hmmm. Here's what's going to happen: There will be an internal investigation, that investigation will be secret, it will clear the officers of any wrongdoing, the officers will be back on duty sooner than later. The department will create facts to assuage the concerns of the public. Of course they could do the right thing but the odds are a 1,000,000 to 1.

Just look at that Canton, OH cop who still has a job after threatening to kill a guy...
 
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skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Is anyone else cognizant of the problem being something other than that the cops used OC on the demonstrators?

From every source I can access it is confirmed that the demonstrators were given a lawful order to leave. They disregarded that order. I'm even pretty much of the opinion that there was nothing necessarily heavy-handed about the order to leave, and there is no question in my mind that the order did nothing to violate any Constitutional rights. Given my limited experience in crowd/demonstration control I see the use of chemical agents as being lower on the force comntinuum, and thus less likely to cause serious or permanent injuries, than picking up and carrying away those who do not obey an order to leave. It also reduces the risk of injury to the person enforcing the order, although that is merely a secondaty benefit.

From the moment the incident was reported facts were either distorted (that's a polite way of saying someone lied) or were ignored (a stronger way of saying someone lied) in order to create a justification for the action that had nothing to do with the actual order to leave. That, in my mind, is the crime that has been committed. Persons in charge (public officials or heads of private enterprises) who will intentionally lie in order to attempt to justify any action - be it legal or illegal - are contemptable and should be removed for failing to uphold the trust placed in them by those that put them in charge and the trust of those who they are in charge of.

stay safe.
 

MilProGuy

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
1,210
Location
Mississippi
My fears are that these protestors are going to continue on until someone is killed during a melee.

Be it civilian, or law enforcement officer, or 83-year-old lady...I have to wonder...will it all be worth the loss of a human life?

Personally, I think not.
 

Billy D

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Messages
56
Location
detroit
I doubt the police had the lawfull rigt to order them to leave, what ever happened to the right to peacefull protest. I think those morons should occupy a job not the streets but o well, what the police did was outright assault with a weapon.
 

Tawnos

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Washington
From every source I can access it is confirmed that the demonstrators were given a lawful order to leave.

Citation? An order to not peacefully demonstrate in a public place and to leave that place is not a "lawful order to leave".
 

j4l

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2011
Messages
1,835
Location
fl
Citation? An order to not peacefully demonstrate in a public place and to leave that place is not a "lawful order to leave".

Depends, actually, on a number of things. Few of which have been reported (funny how they prefer to leave out key bits of info, in favor of always making somenone out to be some sort of "victim" without ever bothering to mention the preceeding).

Did they obtain the needed-if any-permits to do what they were doing at the specific place they were doing it? (and, no, before you even bother, you cannot simply walk up and hold a protest wherever you feel like doing so)

Were they-in the process of their "peaceful" demonstration- doing so in any way that blocked or obstructed passage through a given location?
(They arent pickets on strike vs. a specific entity- and being governed in the rules of conducting said strike by the Labor Relations folks-) If they block a right-of-way, or intersection for traffic, or the entrance/fire exits of a building- shame on em. Cops can tell em where to go all day long.
 

Redbaron007

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
Messages
1,613
Location
SW MO
Is anyone else cognizant of the problem being something other than that the cops used OC on the demonstrators?

From every source I can access it is confirmed that the demonstrators were given a lawful order to leave. They disregarded that order. I'm even pretty much of the opinion that there was nothing necessarily heavy-handed about the order to leave, and there is no question in my mind that the order did nothing to violate any Constitutional rights. Given my limited experience in crowd/demonstration control I see the use of chemical agents as being lower on the force comntinuum, and thus less likely to cause serious or permanent injuries, than picking up and carrying away those who do not obey an order to leave. It also reduces the risk of injury to the person enforcing the order, although that is merely a secondaty benefit.

From the moment the incident was reported facts were either distorted (that's a polite way of saying someone lied) or were ignored (a stronger way of saying someone lied) in order to create a justification for the action that had nothing to do with the actual order to leave. That, in my mind, is the crime that has been committed. Persons in charge (public officials or heads of private enterprises) who will intentionally lie in order to attempt to justify any action - be it legal or illegal - are contemptable and should be removed for failing to uphold the trust placed in them by those that put them in charge and the trust of those who they are in charge of.

stay safe.

Agree 100%

The OWS group were given notice to leave before use was used. Some citations were given, however, all were requested to leave the private property they were converging on.

Depends, actually, on a number of things. Few of which have been reported (funny how they prefer to leave out key bits of info, in favor of always making somenone out to be some sort of "victim" without ever bothering to mention the preceeding).

Did they obtain the needed-if any-permits to do what they were doing at the specific place they were doing it? (and, no, before you even bother, you cannot simply walk up and hold a protest wherever you feel like doing so)

Were they-in the process of their "peaceful" demonstration- doing so in any way that blocked or obstructed passage through a given location?
(They arent pickets on strike vs. a specific entity- and being governed in the rules of conducting said strike by the Labor Relations folks-) If they block a right-of-way, or intersection for traffic, or the entrance/fire exits of a building- shame on em. Cops can tell em where to go all day long.

Very accurate. We don't know what they were told to do or requested to do. The media is only providing the small snippet to show LEO in the wrong.

Many folks believe they are entitled to convene and demonstrate wherever they want. It ain't so, though.
 

Beretta92FSLady

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
5,264
Location
In My Coffee
My fears are that these protestors are going to continue on until someone is killed during a melee.

Be it civilian, or law enforcement officer, or 83-year-old lady...I have to wonder...will it all be worth the loss of a human life?

Personally, I think not.

Which begs the question: What is the ultimate goal of the protest (whatever it may be), worth?

The 'tea party' folk stand around, and hold up signs, then fizzle out. Productive protests are protests that push the limits, passively, just enough, that injury is inflicted on the passive protester(s) by the System (Government). Injury of passive protesters affects onlookers, and effects actions in response to seeing protesters beaten, pepper-sprayed, for doing nothing more than standing firm in their spot, and demanding 'change' take place. A bunch of sign-holding hillbillies ('tea party') standing around drinking coffee, and shooting the sh*t about so-called "Constitutional 'rights'" is a gathering, not a protest. The way the 'tea party' went about their so-called "protest" is half-hearted, weak, and deserved precisely what it achieved, NOTHING, but a fleeting time in Governance stonewalling, and pointing fingers - on the tax payers dime!
 
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SovereignAxe

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
791
Location
Elizabethton, TN
I doubt the police had the lawfull rigt to order them to leave, what ever happened to the right to peacefull protest. I think those morons should occupy a job not the streets but o well, what the police did was outright assault with a weapon.

I agree with you about the peaceful protest. All of this stuff reminds me of what happenened with Gandhi and the Indians in the 30s. You want to see a peaceful protest, those guys would, by the thousands, lay down on the ground surrounding one of the government buildings, forcing the workers to step on the protesters to get to work. You guys think the OWS protesters are hindering traffic? They have much to learn.

As for occupying a job, I saw a statistic somewhere that about 80% of OWS protesters have a job, while only about 60% of the Tea Party protesters do. I thought that was in an interesting stat. Not sure how you could get that scientifically, though.

edit: Not sure where to get the Tea Partiers, but here is OWS, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street#Demographics
 
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Tawnos

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Washington
Depends, actually, on a number of things. Few of which have been reported (funny how they prefer to leave out key bits of info, in favor of always making somenone out to be some sort of "victim" without ever bothering to mention the preceeding).

Did they obtain the needed-if any-permits to do what they were doing at the specific place they were doing it? (and, no, before you even bother, you cannot simply walk up and hold a protest wherever you feel like doing so)
Public area of a university? Yeah, you can hold a protest there.

Where in the CA constitution does it mention that a peaceful gathering for redress of grievances can have a required permit?
CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION
ARTICLE 1 DECLARATION OF RIGHTS


SEC. 3. (a) The people have the right to instruct their
representatives, petition government for redress of grievances, and
assemble freely to consult for the common good.

That's in addition to the federal constitution's bill of rights.

Were they-in the process of their "peaceful" demonstration- doing so in any way that blocked or obstructed passage through a given location?
(They arent pickets on strike vs. a specific entity- and being governed in the rules of conducting said strike by the Labor Relations folks-) If they block a right-of-way, or intersection for traffic, or the entrance/fire exits of a building- shame on em. Cops can tell em where to go all day long.
This is where they were protesting:
3741788126_35ee18445d.jpg


In the video, you see people walking about them. You see the cops stepping over them and them doing nothing to impede them. They were sitting there, peacefully protesting, not blocking blah blah blah...
 

Billy D

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Messages
56
Location
detroit
Public area of a university? Yeah, you can hold a protest there.

Where in the CA constitution does it mention that a peaceful gathering for redress of grievances can have a required permit?


That's in addition to the federal constitution's bill of rights.



In the video, you see people walking about them. You see the cops stepping over them and them doing nothing to impede them. They were sitting there, peacefully protesting, not blocking blah blah blah...

Id like to see those cops get outright fired, along with the stupid 16 that abandoned thier post in Detroit last week.
 

MilProGuy

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
1,210
Location
Mississippi
Which begs the question: What is the ultimate goal of the protest (whatever it may be), worth?

The 'tea party' folk stand around, and hold up signs, then fizzle out. Productive protests are protests that push the limits, passively, just enough, that injury is inflicted on the passive protester(s) by the System (Government). Injury of passive protesters affects onlookers, and effects actions in response to seeing protesters beaten, pepper-sprayed, for doing nothing more than standing firm in their spot, and demanding 'change' take place. A bunch of sign-holding hillbillies ('tea party') standing around drinking coffee, and shooting the sh*t about so-called "Constitutional 'rights'" is a gathering, not a protest. The way the 'tea party' went about their so-called "protest" is half-hearted, weak, and deserved precisely what it achieved, NOTHING, but a fleeting time in Governance stonewalling, and pointing fingers - on the tax payers dime!

At least none of the T.E.A. Party demonstrators were maced, kicked, slugged, arrested or booked.

Just sayin'...there's a right way and a wrong way to do things; and every choice we make in life has it's own unique set of circumstances.
 

jbone

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,230
Location
WA
My fears are that these protestors are going to continue on until someone is killed during a melee.

Be it civilian, or law enforcement officer, or 83-year-old lady...I have to wonder...will it all be worth the loss of a human life?

Personally, I think not.

Yes, the socialist movement backing this will push the occupiers into something very tragic. Sadly that’s how this slimy liberal/socialist movement operates, and without blinking will have the WH assigning blame elsewhere.



Which begs the question: What is the ultimate goal of the protest (whatever it may be), worth?

So true, and I bet 99% of the self proclaimed 99% are clueless when asked, they will present everything from banning Cottage Cheese to spreading the word of Lunar Dust Worship. These boobs belong to the radical socialist movement, mindless liberal sheep, and are being used like a....
 

KBCraig

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Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
4,886
Location
Granite State of Mind
Given my limited experience in crowd/demonstration control I see the use of chemical agents as being lower on the force comntinuum, and thus less likely to cause serious or permanent injuries, than picking up and carrying away those who do not obey an order to leave.
I suspect your experience and training predates OC dispensers like the one shown being used at UC-Davis.

I don't know the brand and model being used, but I can tell you that the Deftec Mk-9 dispenser that's in wide use has a minimum recommended distance of 6 feet (even for the cone spray as seen here, rather than stream spray). It is to be directed at the torso and upper chest, not at someone's eyes, no matter what the range.

UCDPD Lt. Pike was directing the full blast at people's faces from as little as arm's length away, potentially causing permanent eye damage, and lasting injury or scarring to the skin. There was nothing restricting his movement; he was moving freely along a line of stationary targets who were offering no active resistance.

Lt. Pike, the department, and the university would be likely to lose an excessive use of force suit, because either Lt. Pike was not properly trained nor adequately supervised in deploying this OC dispenser, or he ignored his training and violated the use of force policy.
 

SirTiger

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2010
Messages
32
Location
Richmond
At least none of the T.E.A. Party demonstrators were maced, kicked, slugged, arrested or booked.

Just sayin'...there's a right way and a wrong way to do things; and every choice we make in life has it's own unique set of circumstances.

People get maced, kicked, slugged, arrested and booked all the time. Does that mean they did something "wrong". Ugh, no.

Lets be realistic here... The right way is a bias thing to say. For example... I don't think its right for my city to "take 3 feet of my yard to make a road wider, but they do.
 

SovereignAxe

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
791
Location
Elizabethton, TN
Yes, the socialist movement backing this will push the occupiers into something very tragic. Sadly that’s how this slimy liberal/socialist movement operates, and without blinking will have the WH assigning blame elsewhere.





So true, and I bet 99% of the self proclaimed 99% are clueless when asked, they will present everything from banning Cottage Cheese to spreading the word of Lunar Dust Worship. These boobs belong to the radical socialist movement, mindless liberal sheep, and are being used like a....

Why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?

rofl, I can't even begin to debate the OWS movement with you if you think it's a socialist movement. One of the main facets of the OWS movement is to remove the influence of corporations from the government and restore democratic power to the voters/people. The other is to protect the fledgling middle class. If that's socialism, then h***s f****** bells, I guess I'm a socialist. To me, it sounds like America.

But what do I know? I support the ideas behind the OWS and the TEA Party movements. I think both have good ideas to better this country. Reduced gov't spending, adherence to the constitution, reducing unemployment, greed, corruption, the national debt, and balancing the federal budget. These are all ideas we can get behind-at least I can.
 

HandyHamlet

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
2,772
Location
Terra, Sol
Is anyone else cognizant of the problem being something other than that the cops used OC on the demonstrators?

No.

Even if what you surmise is correct, why did the paramilitary not just cuff them, pick them up, and put them in a van?

You know, like every other time they arrest a group of people who refuse to stand up.

The act of pepper spraying the demonstrators was an attack and served no other purpose.
 

SourKraut

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2011
Messages
113
Location
Wisconsin
SoverignAxe- Personaly, I find 'democracies' to be quite offensive.:mad:

The system of laws under which we are ruled over with in the U.S.A. is called a Republic. There is no mention of the word democracy in The COTUS or The Declaration of Independence, for good reasons too.
 
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