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Guns in church discussion point

Redbaron007

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SW MO
If the church wants to ban carrying, then they can, unless laws say otherwise.

Now, as a member, if one chooses to carry against the leader(s) wishes, then you have that choice, but there could be consequences. Trying to convince someone who is against it, is like spitting into the wind....it usually comes back and stinks.

As a congregational leader, we have had a few members/guests who wanted CCW banned/posted so they would feel comfortable. It is already prohibited in MO, unless you get permission from the leaders, then you are ok.

Fortunately, our leadership group has taken the stance to allow the state law be enforced; however, they haven't asked anyone to leave that is carrying. They suspicion many, but haven't made it an issue, even at the huge urging of a few.

Ultimately, it is a risk v reward decision.
 

skidmark

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Valhalla
....

As a congregational leader, we have had a few members/guests who wanted CCW banned/posted so they would feel comfortable. It is already prohibited in MO, unless you get permission from the leaders, then you are ok.

Fortunately, our leadership group has taken the stance to allow the state law be enforced; however, they haven't asked anyone to leave that is carrying. They suspicion many, but haven't made it an issue, even at the huge urging of a few.

....

Just to satisfy my perverse curiosity, what does your church's theological teachings say about imposing your will on others?

And how did you, as a congregational leader, deal with those few members/guests who wanted to impose their will on others so they could "feel comfortable"? Especially if it was at the "huge" urging of "a few".

If you feel that answering the questions might expose you to accusations of hypocracy you may elect not to respond publically. But I hope that you do answer the questions, if only to yourself.

stay safe.
 

Redbaron007

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Just to satisfy my perverse curiosity, what does your church's theological teachings say about imposing your will on others?

And how did you, as a congregational leader, deal with those few members/guests who wanted to impose their will on others so they could "feel comfortable"? Especially if it was at the "huge" urging of "a few".

If you feel that answering the questions might expose you to accusations of hypocracy you may elect not to respond publically. But I hope that you do answer the questions, if only to yourself.

stay safe.

When you say imposing 'your will', are you suggesting me imposing my own personal beliefs? No, they weren't. The decisions were based upon scriptural review, organizational bylaws and city/state laws. It was a decision of two committees. The final decision was based upon the pastor's review of the committees recommendations.

As for the thought of carrying from a theological perspective, overall, there was nothing conclusive that prohibits a person from defending themselves. Hence, why the final decision was to follow the state laws; however, there is no pressing effort to frisk those who are suspected. Our security team gave their opinion to follow state laws; however, didn't have an issue with giving those who carry permission to CCW. The pastor has reserved this option, too.

As for those very few who started the review (aprox 20); several were not pleased, some of them left and others have remained, with comments they were glad the issue was reviewed.

I hope this answers your curiosity.
 

skidmark

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Thanks for the reply. For purposes of clarification, I was not referring to you personally imposing your will on others, but to the few members of the congregation who wanted everybody to believe - or at least act - like they did.

And it appears that in spite of all the obfuscation you have thrown around the decision was that your religion has nothing to say one way or another about a person chosing to defend themself against physical evil and thus you (the congregation) decided to say out of the matter and let the secular authorities deal with it via established law.

It's just my opinion but I believe you and your congregation are better off after those few who left after not getting their way departed from amongst you.

stay safe.
 

MilProGuy

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Mississippi
When you say imposing 'your will', are you suggesting me imposing my own personal beliefs? No, they weren't. The decisions were based upon scriptural review, organizational bylaws and city/state laws. It was a decision of two committees. The final decision was based upon the pastor's review of the committees recommendations.

As for the thought of carrying from a theological perspective, overall, there was nothing conclusive that prohibits a person from defending themselves. Hence, why the final decision was to follow the state laws; however, there is no pressing effort to frisk those who are suspected. Our security team gave their opinion to follow state laws; however, didn't have an issue with giving those who carry permission to CCW. The pastor has reserved this option, too.

As for those very few who started the review (aprox 20); several were not pleased, some of them left and others have remained, with comments they were glad the issue was reviewed.

I hope this answers your curiosity.

Well-stated post.

Following city/state laws is a responsible action that our society, at large, would do well to observe.
 

Redbaron007

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SW MO
Thanks for the reply. For purposes of clarification, I was not referring to you personally imposing your will on others, but to the few members of the congregation who wanted everybody to believe - or at least act - like they did.

And it appears that in spite of all the obfuscation you have thrown around the decision was that your religion has nothing to say one way or another about a person chosing to defend themself against physical evil and thus you (the congregation) decided to say out of the matter and let the secular authorities deal with it via established law.

It's just my opinion but I believe you and your congregation are better off after those few who left after not getting their way departed from amongst you.

stay safe.

Obfuscation? For the purpose of keeping the comments short and readable, I didn't go into the details. The issue wasn't whitewashed. From a theological perspective, there were some heated conversations...however, context was the theme. Many comments were made, however, when it came to an evaluation in context, it made a difference. Of course those that were against made some of the most extreme stretches with theology, but had very little substance, except their it was based upon their opinion.

I was surprised at the how many also used history with their theological argument.

When it came to the final decision, it was almost unanimous that OC was not going to happen; although it was almost the complete opposite for CCW. The state regulation for CCW is already written as a prohibited action here in MO; but, permission can be granted through the church leader, i.e. pastor/directors/trustees/deacons, to those who wish.
 

okboomer

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Oct 18, 2009
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Oklahoma, USA
RedBaron,

Sounds to me like the issue should be reviewed after a year and if no incidents, could be regularized.

One step towards regularizing guns ... a baby step, but a step in the right direction.
 

Redbaron007

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SW MO
RedBaron,

Sounds to me like the issue should be reviewed after a year and if no incidents, could be regularized.

One step towards regularizing guns ... a baby step, but a step in the right direction.

IIRC, it was slated to be reviewed sometime in 2012 or 2013; unless other issues forced it to come back up before then. I doubt OC will ever be approved as a blanket. There was talk of the security team OCg; but it was nixed.
 

hermannr

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Mar 24, 2011
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Okanogan Highland
My dad was a Lutheran pastor for almost 50 years (he died in 1988), and I have been to many different Lutheran Churches over the last 64 years, and this has been my observation: Some congregations are all suits and ties, and some are levi's and work shirts, but all are actually about the message, not the clothing.

OC in a congregational setting may upset some, like wearing levi's in a suit and tie congregation will upset some, but those that are there for the message will never notice.

The only thing you will be asked if you OC to my church is. What model is the gun, and who made the holster...anyone for going shooting after service? Doesn't matter f you are wearing a suit, or levi's
 

sraacke

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Jul 20, 2008
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Saint Gabriel, Louisiana, USA
Here in Louisiana there is no law against Open Carry in a place of worship but Conceal Carry was banned. Last year the La Shooting Association helped get the Conceal Carry restriction lifted. The problem for me is that the legislature basically came up with some sort of hybrid CHP/Armed Secruity Guard Frankenpermit thing. It's bizare and warps the entire CHP process in my opinion by creating a case for further restricting carry.
Here's what they came up with.
First, you have to have a CHP which requires a 9 hour class (~100 depending on the instructor and his rates) then $125 to the State Police CHP unit for the 5 year permit.
OK, you jumped through the hoops, spent a couple hundred dollars and got your CHP? Can you conceal carry in church now? Nope.

Now you have to get your church leader to form a special Armed Church Response Team. I'm not making this crap up. Stay with me here. Now the deacon or pastor or whoever forms this special Armed Church Response Team and he gets to announce to EVERYONE in the congrigation that you and your buddies will be part of this special team.

So now you get to CC in church? Nope, there's more. Now that you are on this special Sheepdogs for Christ SWAT team you and your fellow sheepdogs are required to attend some sort of "tactical" training, 8 hours in length, every year. There's nothing in the law about what this "tactical" training is supposed to be.
I have several problems with this law.

First, it takes a State CHP which is meant as a way to conceal a pistol for personal protection and turns it into a para-security license. My arguement is, if you want a armed security guard for your church then you, as a church leader, should feel free to contact a company like Wakenhut/G4S and have one or more security guards contracted to post up at your church. You can even contact your local Law Enforcement agency and contract for an Extra Duty officer assignment. The CHP is not a Security Guard license and this law blurs that line. Maybe I'm biased as I have been working as a Security Officer for several years now.

Second, This sets precident in telling people/citizens that while you can apply for a Shall Issue permit, there are some areas which are more risky to carry than others and so each place will require certain training and more hoops to jump through. They say, well it's crowed in a church and you need the extra training to carry in a church which has more innocent bystaders in the area. Today they say, you can CC in church by jumping through these hoops. Next year when we try to get rid of the restrictions on carrying in resturants that sell alcohol what will they throw at us? "You want to carry in Applebees? OK, get a CHP then take 8 hours of "tactical " training a year and get a letter from the manager of each resturant you want to carry in saying that you will be part of the Resturant Responce Team." It's no more dangerous to carry in a church than at a movie theater or at a concert. Yet you don't need to take additional training to carry at a movie theater or concert. You don't have to take "tatical" training and be on the WalMart Security Team to CC while Black Friday shopping. There should be no special requirements to carry in a Church or any other place.

Third, It doesn't take in to account those of us who are not part of a church congrigation but who may occasionally find ourselves in a church. I may go to a church I've never set foot in for any number of reasons such as being at a friend's wedding, a family members baptism, a coworkers funeral...heck, my ham radio club holds it's monthly meetings at a baptist church in Baton Rouge. Under the law, I can't legally CC with my State permit in any of these examples.

Fourth, In all of the arguements about the need for this law, nobody wanted to discuss the fact that there was never a ban on the ability to Open Carry in a church without the need for a permit nor additional "tatical" training. Whenever any of us brought this up in discussion it was waved off and dismissed. The constant shortshafting we got, even from those who are suppossedly "progun", was extremely insulting to those of us attempting to educate the masses and give our opinion. Open Carry in a church was poopooed as if we were discussing rapeing kittens. I heard people saying, "We need this so that we can leagally carry our guns in church in case a disgruntled family member or ex-congregaton member shows up to do violence." We would inform them, your pastor can already say "Hey everyone, these guys are openly carrying guns in church today just in case there's a problem." I mean, if everyone in church is going to be told that you and your friends are part of the church armed responce team, why worry about conceal carrying? We might as well been banging our heads against a wall.
Some links to read about our God's Sheepdog law-
http://geoconger.wordpress.com/2010...church-of-england-newspaper-july-23-2010-p-5/
http://chattahbox.com/us/2011/01/21/louisiana-worshipers-pack-heat-for-gods-army/
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsme..._locals_train_to_protect_their_churches_w.php

That's my long winded rant. Thanks for reading. Peace. Out.
 
Last edited:

RetiredOC

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Dec 21, 2009
Messages
1,561
Just throwing this out there-

when open carrying situational awareness should be something you're practicing nonstop. So, how do you worship and 'let go' if you're constantly aware of your surroundings? I know not all denominations get into worship, but that's all I've seen in my time as a believer attending assemblies of god. Just something to consider, it's hard to focus on worship if you're also focusing on your gun and who's around it. I fully support your right to OC, its just my opinion on being a bad idea if you're wrapped up in worship. With that said, it should be the individuals decision and if a church is going to tell you that you cannot carry there it is time to find a new church.
 

MilProGuy

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Mississippi
"There is a time to every purpose under Heaven..." ~~ Ecclesiastes

In today's vernacular it means: "There is a time and place for everything."
 

Justman1020

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Joined
Aug 21, 2011
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155
Location
Washington
while i might not OC while attending a religious service to preclude the anti zealots from jumping up and down screaming, those around me wouldn't know i am armed with my favorite Five-n-seveN on my hip and my CC in my wallet.

go well and i hope you enjoy your holiday feast w/family, loved ones and friends in your company...


wabbit...


I definitely would not OC but if it is legal and no one had to know, I don't see a problem with CC.

I OC into my church, and have had no issue's...sparked an interesting conversation though, there was someone who was also in the military attending, (Someone who i expected would understand the desire to defend yourself?) who asked why i carried, and i told him, to defend myself..he said "But to church? Is that necessary??" i told him "Please, give me one minute" pulled out my phone, typed into google "Church shooting's" and showed him the result's, to which he suddenly understanded that not everyone believes that a church should be a safe place of refuge, and bad thing's happen at church...he suddenly understood why i carried.

nobody has EVER been bothered by me carrying into church though, i have even spoken face to face with the pastor, who didn't say a word about it.

"God will protect me, and if he does not, then it was meant that my life be taken that day."

More or less.

God's busy...so he sent me.
 

Redbaron007

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SW MO
Yale, Holy Cow....no pun intended....but that is a bunch of Holy Hogwash! Good luck gents!

Just throwing this out there-

when open carrying situational awareness should be something you're practicing nonstop. So, how do you worship and 'let go' if you're constantly aware of your surroundings? I know not all denominations get into worship, but that's all I've seen in my time as a believer attending assemblies of god. Just something to consider, it's hard to focus on worship if you're also focusing on your gun and who's around it. I fully support your right to OC, its just my opinion on being a bad idea if you're wrapped up in worship. With that said, it should be the individuals decision and if a church is going to tell you that you cannot carry there it is time to find a new church.

You make an interesting observation.

IMHO, it is going to be up to the individual to make this decision. It seems to me, what you are talking about is theological differences between denominations. If someone's denomination is as such, where they have to 'loose' themselves to feel the Holy Spirit, which may require them to forget about their situational awareness, then they will have to make that choice....carry and not 'feel' the Holy Spirit or follow the church's thoughts on 'feeling' the Holy Spirit and not carry. This 'feeling' or 'worshiping' follows a lot of Pentecostal denominations. Whereas, the Catholics don't.

I am in not way approving or condemning anyone's denomination. The whole topic of 'feeling' God or the Holy Spirit is a topic all of it's own and not part of this thread. :)
 

since9

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Just throwing this out there-

when open carrying situational awareness should be something you're practicing nonstop. So, how do you worship and 'let go' if you're constantly aware of your surroundings?

Good question. I rely on the fact there are about 500 people in worship with me, ushers at the doors who're both trained to watch for bad stuff and at least a dozen of us in the congregation who're carrying. The likelihood a BG will get me before I can respond is quite low.

Just something to consider, it's hard to focus on worship if you're also focusing on your gun and who's around it.

I CC in church, out of deference to those who're there to worship and would prefer not to be distracted (only some are distracted). The only focus I have with respect to my firearm is that it remains concealed.

With that said, it should be the individuals decision and if a church is going to tell you that you cannot carry there it is time to find a new church.

Or CC. If you can't CC, then yes, by all means, find another church.

By the way, I did not ask my church if I can carry concealed. I assume they know the laws in our state (it's their responsibility to know them), and if they frown on it, they'd have posted a "no firearms" sign at the entrances. As it is, several people in the church, including both our pastor and one of our associate pastors know I carry, as I've gone on retreats and hikes while OC-ing. None of them have said anything about it.
 

SavageOne

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....By the way, I did not ask my church if I can carry concealed. I assume they know the laws in our state (it's their responsibility to know them), and if they frown on it, they'd have posted a "no firearms" sign at the entrances. As it is, several people in the church, including both our pastor and one of our associate pastors know I carry, as I've gone on retreats and hikes while OC-ing. None of them have said anything about it.


I was unaware that in CO non-commercial private property was required to post signage. I mean commercial property must follow certain guidelines to obtain their business license, but I wasn't aware non commercial property would be expected too. Would you have to post a "no firearms" sign at the entrance to your home if you wished to keep firearms out?
 

Jack House

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I80, USA
I was unaware that in CO non-commercial private property was required to post signage. I mean commercial property must follow certain guidelines to obtain their business license, but I wasn't aware non commercial property would be expected too. Would you have to post a "no firearms" sign at the entrance to your home if you wished to keep firearms out?
I don't know about Colorado, but in Texas the law is effective notice and the sign requirements are simply to ensure effective notice when using signage. Does colorado not allow effective notice in any other form?

Although, a law requiring all homes to contain armories or post large signs announcing that it is a gun free zone would be interesting.


Posted using my HTC Evo
 

Steeler-gal

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Fairfax County, VA
Just throwing this out there-

when open carrying situational awareness should be something you're practicing nonstop. So, how do you worship and 'let go' if you're constantly aware of your surroundings? I know not all denominations get into worship, but that's all I've seen in my time as a believer attending assemblies of god. Just something to consider, it's hard to focus on worship if you're also focusing on your gun and who's around it. I fully support your right to OC, its just my opinion on being a bad idea if you're wrapped up in worship. With that said, it should be the individuals decision and if a church is going to tell you that you cannot carry there it is time to find a new church.

I'm not sure I really understand the question but I'd like to say that even when I are in deep worship mode or deep into meditative prayer I still hear most everything going on around me. I hear more. I hear the breathing of people two rows behind me. In fact it's almost clearer. If someone chose to disrupt the "calm" it would be immediately clear to me. Plus with our ushers at the door there's no way someone could sneak in unnoticed or without disruption.

Hope that makes sense.
 

since9

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I was unaware that in CO non-commercial private property was required to post signage. I mean commercial property must follow certain guidelines to obtain their business license, but I wasn't aware non commercial property would be expected too. Would you have to post a "no firearms" sign at the entrance to your home if you wished to keep firearms out?

In CO, you can both OC and CC anywhere unless either posted or otherwise prohibited by law. This includes in private residences. Churches are treated like businesses.

On a property that's posted, you cannot carry in whatever manner is posted without risking a trespassing charge.
 

SavageOne

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In CO, you can both OC and CC anywhere unless either posted or otherwise prohibited by law. This includes in private residences. Churches are treated like businesses.

On a property that's posted, you cannot carry in whatever manner is posted without risking a trespassing charge.

Just to clarify a couple of points. Do churches have to acquire a business license? Also just to be clear, you are saying that a owner of a private residence would have to post a sign at the entry to their home to enforce their control over their property? I find this very interesting, could you provide a cite to CO law, so I can study this?
 
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