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DOJ Requesting More Staffing For CCW Applications

davegran

davegran

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safcrkr said:
Me too. I'm self employed and don't get paid days off, and being a 500 mile round trip away, I figured it'd cost me $400-500 to do just that, with lost income, gas, parking, etc. So I trusted they'd do a good, FAIR, job of processing in order received. I was 1st in line at my post office on the 1st, and they got my app on the 2nd. They cashed my check two weeks ago... but I'm still waiting. People who mailed the day after DOJ had my app already have permits. They probably just kept dumping more on a pile that I was in, and I kept getting deeper & deeper.
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I understand your consternation, but if being patient can save you $500, then it's not all bad. People who are self-employed sure have to make some tough decisions some times.... At least if your check is cashed it means you've been issued a license and you'll have it soon.
 
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Captain Nemo

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Safcrkr:

I hand carried my applicaton to the post office. Was there when the doors opened on Nov. 1. I received my CCL on the 21st. I would expect yours will arrive shortly if the check has been cashed.
 
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xenophon

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E6chevron said:
Just some notes from the scanned documents.

25,000 applications received in the first four days.
30,000 applications received in the first eight days.
44,000 applications received as of Nov. 21 (twenty days)

*snip*
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Well, I know mine was received there on the 2nd. So that would have been in the first batch of like 10 to 12 thousand, they got. Those received on days 3 and 4 definitely shouldn't have gotten processed/mailed before all on days 2 and 3. But that's not happening.

And it said it's a paper system, manual entry into the database. Cluster! They had many months to prepare the electronic system............
 
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apjonas

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People Should Refrain from Submitting Applications

Until next month. Applications submitted after the first week and especially those recently submitted guarantee two things: (1) Everybody's license will take longer than it would have otherwise and (2) Late submitters won't be getting a a CWL until near mid-January. Staunching applications will free up DoJ personnel to clear the backlog. A application submitted today has an last issue date of January 10th. A submission on December 1st is due NLT December 22nd. You can bet that come December 1st any non-processed applications will go to the back of the line.
 
davegran

davegran

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apjonas said:
.... Staunching applications will free up DoJ personnel to clear the backlog....
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I hate to be the one to bust your bubble; but according to the numbers, if no more applications were sent in from now on, it would take around 52 days to clear out what is already been submitted....

2vv2ob8.jpg

​
 
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safcrkr

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Captain Nemo said:
Safcrkr:

I hand carried my applicaton to the post office. Was there when the doors opened on Nov. 1. I received my CCL on the 21st. I would expect yours will arrive shortly if the check has been cashed.
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Yup, if it hasn't been lost in the mail. In which case I cannot even make any kind of claim until Dec.16th. My biggest concern is mine (and many others in the same shoes, who SHOULD HAVE HAD THEM by now) got stolen from USPS and right now some scumbag is walking around with a CC license with my name on it. That doesn't sit well. Xenophon's check was cashed almost 3 WEEKS AGO on the 7th!!! I know another, Browning300 from WI Shooters Forum, who's check was cashed on the 9th, Trip 20's on the 10th... mine, AJ Dual's, and a few others from arfcom on the 14th. We ALL mailed on the 1st. I know a guy who MAILED on the 7th, and got his today!!! There's no plausible explanation for this delay other than mischief. If it's not mischief, then DOJ is totally inept. Sooner or later, you have to realize something is amiss and they're not coming. Patience only delays the inevitible.

Page 1 of the application form explains the process. If app is complete and correct, check is deposited, app moves to background check sequencing. If check's cashed app's been "processed", is correct & complete. Page 1 also says apps will be processed in order received. If Xenophon's check was cashed on the 7th, his app was approved on the 7th, or sooner. The background check, printing, mailing has not been done in 18 days? Yet others have check cashed, license issued, received, in matter of days? And their process begins days later than those of us still waiting? C'mon man. Something wrong... open your eyes. We're your friends and fellow gun owners, and we're getting screwed over.... and all anybody with a permit can say is "patience... it's comin"??
 
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apjonas

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Perhaps

davegran said:
I hate to be the one to bust your bubble; but according to the numbers, if no more applications were sent in from now on, it would take around 52 days to clear out what is already been submitted....
Click to expand...


But I'm pretty sure that adding more applications to the queue won't help matters. Every new application requires some action, even if it is opening the envelope to retrieve the check. Multiply that action by thousands of envelopes and you have time that could be used to clear out quite a few existing applications. In any event, it is still industrial strength stupid to submit an application before December 1st (if getting your license ASAP is the goal). December 1st is the functional equivalent of November 7th, 2nd=8th, 3rd=9th,...24th=30th.
 
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apjonas

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Promises, Promises

safcrkr said:
Yup, if it hasn't been lost in the mail. In which case I cannot even make any kind of claim until Dec.16th. My biggest concern is mine (and many others in the same shoes, who SHOULD HAVE HAD THEM by now) got stolen from USPS and right now some scumbag is walking around with a CC license with my name on it. That doesn't sit well. Xenophon's check was cashed almost 3 WEEKS AGO on the 7th!!! I know another, Browning300 from WI Shooters Forum, who's check was cashed on the 9th, Trip 20's on the 10th... mine, AJ Dual's, and a few others from arfcom on the 14th. We ALL mailed on the 1st. I know a guy who MAILED on the 7th, and got his today!!! There's no plausible explanation for this delay other than mischief. If it's not mischief, then DOJ is totally inept. Sooner or later, you have to realize something is amiss and they're not coming. Patience only delays the inevitible.

Page 1 of the application form explains the process. If app is complete and correct, check is deposited, app moves to background check sequencing. If check's cashed app's been "processed", is correct & complete. Page 1 also says apps will be processed in order received. If Xenophon's check was cashed on the 7th, his app was approved on the 7th, or sooner. The background check, printing, mailing has not been done in 18 days? Yet others have check cashed, license issued, received, in matter of days? And their process begins days later than those of us still waiting? C'mon man. Something wrong... open your eyes. We're your friends and fellow gun owners, and we're getting screwed over.... and all anybody with a permit can say is "patience... it's comin"??
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I see where the form states first come, first served but there is nothing else about the process. Even if this is DoJ's intention, they are under no obligation to follow such a policy. The processing times are set forth in the law and although DoJ has shown no reluctance to ignore the law, they are more likely to be concerned about meeting the 45 or 21 day window than being polite to those who are now sending in applications. The actual experience belies the notion of processing in order of receipt. You also have to take into account that there is more than one person doing the work. So if your application is in Sally Swell's pile and she happens to take a couple of days off, you can expect a license after the person who ended up with workaholic Danny Diligent even though your application arrived before the other person's. You really have no basis for a complaint until the sun has set on Day 45. Not that complaining would accomplish much. What Wisconsin needs to adopt is the policy (I forget which state) that once the statutory limit for processing has passed, a copy of the application serves as a valid CWL unless and until a regular license is issued or denied.
 
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safcrkr

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apjonas said:
I see where the form states first come, first served but there is nothing else about the process. Even if this is DoJ's intention, they are under no obligation to follow such a policy. The processing times are set forth in the law and although DoJ has shown no reluctance to ignore the law, they are more likely to be concerned about meeting the 45 or 21 day window than being polite to those who are now sending in applications. The actual experience belies the notion of processing in order of receipt. You also have to take into account that there is more than one person doing the work. So if your application is in Sally Swell's pile and she happens to take a couple of days off, you can expect a license after the person who ended up with workaholic Danny Diligent even though your application arrived before the other person's. You really have no basis for a complaint until the sun has set on Day 45. Not that complaining would accomplish much. What Wisconsin needs to adopt is the policy (I forget which state) that once the statutory limit for processing has passed, a copy of the application serves as a valid CWL unless and until a regular license is issued or denied.
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Sorry, but I disagree. They stated their policy is "processed in order received", and obviously that's not how it's being done... or is it? If not, then they should say as much. Otherwise, there is a real concern that some have been "lost" (or stolen), and if so, that's an important legal document possibly in the wrong hands.. and the rightful owners have no recourse for 45 days. They should have more dilligence to protect those who apply. This isn't a "book of the month club" membership or library card that's unaccounted for. If carrying a concealed weapon is a serious responsibility, then who has "custody" of a license to do so should be a serious concern also. Would you "loan" your carry permit to anyone? 18 days since processing began for some, and nothing received, cannot be explained by Sally Swell's stomach flu. There should either be a license issued or a denial/rejection. Nothing received can only indicate something's not right. Sorry if I'm being "chicken little", but that's how I see it. Where there's smoke, just sometimes there's a fire. If you don't checkout the smoke, you deserve to get burned.
 
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msteinhilber

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I've waited years to be able to lawfully carry concealed, if they end up taking me right to the end of the 45 day mark then so be it. Yea I know they cashed my money order and I am eager to get my permission slip - but I'm not up in arms about not having it yet.
 
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safcrkr

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From another thread on this forum:

Forms sent: 11/3/11
Training used: WI hunter safety
Payment: personal check
Check cashed: 11/15/11
License issued: 11/21/11
License received: 11/25/11

Now compare that to:

Forms sent on the 1st.
Training: various, all valid
Checks cashed: 7th, 9th, 10th, 14th (X 4 guys I know of)
License issued: ?
License Received (by rightful owner): none

Sally Swell left behind a big pile when she got sick. :(

edit: 2 of the 4 with checks cashed 14th, got them today. No word on "7th, 9th, and 10th".
 
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safcrkr

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davegran said:
I must have gotten Danny Diligent.... :cool:

Forms submitted: 11-1
Mailed from: Rural Cassville, WI
Proof of Training: Utah Permit
License issued: 11-5
Check cashed: 11-8
License received: 11-9
License Number: 1100's
Click to expand...

... and I got Mickey the Mope, filling in for the absent Sally Swell. :) :)
 
bluehighways

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Mine must be in Toolbag Tommy's pile. He's too busy trying to hit on Sally Swell over by the coffee maker to get my application processed.
 
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apjonas

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Processed in the order received..

does not mean approved in the order received or issued in the order received. There are going to be wide variances in processing time even under the best of circumstances. I would not use "check cashed" as a proxy for processing underway or processing complete because it introduces a whole new set of players and variables. When I said "no basis for complaint," I didn't mean "no basis for concern" or "no basis for being irritated" but rather that you can't call DoJ up and say "Where the heck's my license" (even if it were physically possible) because the first question back will be "Has it been 45 days?"
 
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safcrkr

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apjonas said:
does not mean approved in the order received or issued in the order received. There are going to be wide variances in processing time even under the best of circumstances. I would not use "check cashed" as a proxy for processing underway or processing complete because it introduces a whole new set of players and variables. When I said "no basis for complaint," I didn't mean "no basis for concern" or "no basis for being irritated" but rather that you can't call DoJ up and say "Where the heck's my license" (even if it were physically possible) because the first question back will be "Has it been 45 days?"
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You make some good points... some not so good. Check cashing means a.) they got your app. b.) it was complete and correct and training submitted met standards (if this were not true, your check gets returned, not cashed). c.) Processing has begun. All that's left after app is approved as correct/complete (and check cashing indicates this... you cannot say cashing of check does not indicate beginning of processing), is background check, printing, mailing. I'd bet that 95+% have no problems nor delays in the background check (that's the average for purchases, this should be no differant). I see no reason why the finishing of the process should not be in the same, or reasonably close, order as it was begun. I can see a "lag" of a few days, not several weeks, and people a day behind in mailing being a day ahead of someone who mailed the day before. But when this gets stretched out to two, even three weeks in some cases, this is cause for concern. Are you aware that some people are getting TWO licenses issued, days & numbers apart, even though they only applied once? This also shows serious flaws in organization.


This is the last I'm going to discuss this situation. My blood pressure goes too high. I'm distancing myself from these forums until I can calm down and relax. It's not worth the aggravation. The last thing I'll say, is that I was a strong supporter of DOJ in the past, but I see this as the makings of a fiasco that has changed how I percieved them. Disgust seems the most apprpriate word I can think of.
 
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Flipper

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DOJ would have better off turning the whole thing over to the DOT or the Department of Revenue. They are use to dealing with an influx of paper with cash attached and confidential information. As far as training needed for application processing, no more is needed than that had by the clerk you give a 4473 to when a gun is bought. DOJ wasted time trying to make the rules as restricted as that they thought they could get away with and obviously did little processing system design.

The high rejection rate says there is something wrong with the system. Why the pseudo 4473 form for an application? Just something for the applicant to mess up. No need to ask if over 21 if birthdate is asked for. Get the person's identifying information and education documents, and do the background check.

The "pile" system that DOJ is reputed to be using indicates that they do not date and sequentially number the applications as received and processing them likewise.
 
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paul@paul-fisher.com

paul@paul-fisher.com

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Flipper said:
The high rejection rate says there is something wrong with the system. Why the pseudo 4473 form for an application? Just something for the applicant to mess up. No need to ask if over 21 if birthdate is asked for. Get the person's identifying information and education documents, and do the background check.
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High rejection rate? Last I heard was 300 or so out of the 1st 12000.
 
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apjonas

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Sure not worth harming your health

Check cashing could also mean that you just made a contribution to the state because you are not eligible for a permit (as opposed to an incomplete application). Those who submit an incomplete application ought to forfeit at least $25 because they slow down the process for everybody. I am also curious as to why there is concern that some other person might have swiped your CWL (from the mail or otherwise). Not a good thing but what possible benefit could it provide to the thief? Unless he's you identical twin and has your DL/ID, any attempt to display it when required would result in arrest for theft, 941.23, etc.


safcrkr said:
You make some good points... some not so good. Check cashing means a.) they got your app. b.) it was complete and correct and training submitted met standards (if this were not true, your check gets returned, not cashed). c.) Processing has begun. All that's left after app is approved as correct/complete (and check cashing indicates this... you cannot say cashing of check does not indicate beginning of processing), is background check, printing, mailing. I'd bet that 95+% have no problems nor delays in the background check (that's the average for purchases, this should be no differant). I see no reason why the finishing of the process should not be in the same, or reasonably close, order as it was begun. I can see a "lag" of a few days, not several weeks, and people a day behind in mailing being a day ahead of someone who mailed the day before. But when this gets stretched out to two, even three weeks in some cases, this is cause for concern. Are you aware that some people are getting TWO licenses issued, days & numbers apart, even though they only applied once? This also shows serious flaws in organization.


This is the last I'm going to discuss this situation. My blood pressure goes too high. I'm distancing myself from these forums until I can calm down and relax. It's not worth the aggravation. The last thing I'll say, is that I was a strong supporter of DOJ in the past, but I see this as the makings of a fiasco that has changed how I percieved them. Disgust seems the most apprpriate word I can think of.
Click to expand...
 
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