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Thread: Which Is More Imortant?

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    Which Is More Imortant?

    Of the two choices offered, which do you think is most important, the "Greater Good", or the "Good of the Individual"?

    I am sure some will label me selfish, but I am inclined to believe that the good of the individual is of upmost importance. Does anyone disagree? Why?

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    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, or the one." -Spock
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    Are we talking about bringing enough gum for the whole class, or are talking about your natural and unalienable* right to self defense?

    Yes, "it depends" is the best answer to your poorly worded question.

    stay safe.

    *Despite what some want to believe, there is a difference between inalienable and unalienable. Think "may not" versus "can not".
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    Regular Member RPGamingGirl's Avatar
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    I want to say the many is more important than the few. But we all know from experience that there are some of 'the many' that aren't necessarily good for the gene pool, so to speak. Therefore, sometimes meeting the needs of the individual, in the long run, is better for the many.

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    You've posed a very valid question.

    I would say "for the Greater Good".
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, or the one." -Spock
    Spock was a socialist POS. The needs of the many are not going to help themselves at the expense of this one.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MilProGuy View Post
    You've posed a very valid question.

    I would say "for the Greater Good".
    hehe after a certain movie that phrase always makes me think of this scene:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUpbOliTHJY
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SourKraut View Post
    Of the two choices offered, which do you think is most important, the "Greater Good", or the "Good of the Individual"?

    I am sure some will label me selfish, but I am inclined to believe that the good of the individual is of upmost importance. Does anyone disagree? Why?

    Thanks- s.K.
    Its very American for law to protect the individual from the the masses. Yet the US has the most charitable people in the world. If left to the individual the choice is fine either way, if government tries to make the choice it will end badly.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Protect the individuals rights and "The greater good" will take care of itself. Focus on "The greater good" and eventually the individual fades away into the collective, having no rights as a human as any violation of rights can now be justified.

    Someone above used a Star Trek reference. Following along; "The greater good" might just as well be: "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    Protect the individuals rights and "The greater good" will take care of itself. Focus on "The greater good" and eventually the individual fades away into the collective, having no rights as a human as any violation of rights can now be justified.

    Someone above used a Star Trek reference. Following along; "The greater good" might just as well be: "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated"

    Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk
    Hehe, I once heard a better version of resistance is futile... "Resistance is futile; prepare to be inseminated".
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Regular Member RPGamingGirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    Protect the individuals rights and "The greater good" will take care of itself. Focus on "The greater good" and eventually the individual fades away into the collective, having no rights as a human as any violation of rights can now be justified.
    That's where i was trying to go with my answer, but you said it far better.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    Spock was a socialist POS. The needs of the many are not going to help themselves at the expense of this one.
    Well... your indoctrination is showing.

    Had Spock not made the ultimate sacrifice the entire crew and ship would be dead. Not just him. How is that socialism again? Here's a hint. It's not. It IS however a common theme among Asian movies like Hero. The main character dies in the end. Sacrificing himself for "the greater good".

    Luckily history shows time and again that when the many are in need the people and often the world comes together. That's called humanity.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 11-24-2011 at 01:58 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Well... your indoctrination is showing.

    Had Spock not made the ultimate sacrifice the entire crew and ship would be dead. Not just him. How is that socialism again? Here's a hint. It's not. It IS however a common theme among Asian movies like Hero. The main character dies in the end. Sacrificing himself for "the greater good".

    Luckily history shows time and again that when the many are in need the people and often the world comes together. That's called humanity.
    I never liked the Spock character, sorry. Its just a bonus that Roddenberry had Star Trek and especially the Vulcans set in a socialist background.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    I never liked the Spock character, sorry. Its just a bonus that Roddenberry had Star Trek and especially the Vulcans set in a socialist background.
    Bully for you, yet you did not address anything I said. So why bother?
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Bully for you, yet you did not address anything I said. So why bother?
    You took offense at what I said, so I thought I'd give a short explanation of my statement. I didn't and don't care to go chasing red herrings.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    You took offense at what I said, so I thought I'd give a short explanation of my statement. I didn't and don't care to go chasing red herrings.
    WTF?



    I took offense? Really? Merely pointing out your huge and kind of sad gap in logic, pun intended, and the fact that you have done nothing but exhibit your brainwashing. As far as the red herring excuse? Pathetic attempt at deflecting.

    Since you refuse to address what you wrote previously, let me present you with the same logic a slightly different way...

    The guy who jumps on a grenade to save his squad. Hero or "socialist"?

    Happy Thanksgiving.


    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    ...
    Since you refuse to address what you wrote previously, let me present you with the same logic a slightly different way...

    The guy who jumps on a grenade to save his squad. Hero or "socialist"?
    ...
    I did address what I wrote previously; I'll rephrase it for you and elaborate.
    Spock was a socialist POS. He is socialist because that is the background Star Trek and especially the Vulcans have, if you don't believe me just google roddenberry and socialism. His character was not one I liked and in fact found repugnant, I'm not going into this much more than to say that kind of character is not for my tastes.

    "Yet you did not address anything I said" was a correct statement you made previously and it holds now, I'm not going to go for your scarecrow tactic of trying to get me to support something not in my original argument.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Your personal view of the fictitious character has been duly noted as well as you continued deflection of the topic at hand. And your most excellent indoctrination.

    I'll ask again.

    The guy who jumps on the grenade to save his squad. Hero or socialist?

    Your original statement is that Spock is a socialist and his act regarding "the needs of the many" will change nothing.

    Yet his act saved the crew, his friends, and the ship.



    This thing is on and everyone can read what you type.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 11-24-2011 at 04:41 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    WTF?


    The guy who jumps on a grenade to save his squad. Hero or "socialist"?
    Hero.

    "Greater love has no man than this: that a man should lay down his life for his brother".
    Last edited by MilProGuy; 11-24-2011 at 04:56 PM. Reason: expanded comments for the sake of clarity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Your personal view of the fictitious character has been duly noted as well as you continued deflection of the topic at hand.

    I'll ask again.

    The guy who jumps on the grenade to save his squad. Hero or socialist?
    When did this scarecrow become the topic? Just because you ask a question does not mean that the discussion must yield to that direction of logic or illogic. All I did was address a quote of a character. Your question is a small subset of the main topic that I find boring because of its soap box appeal and very weak pinnings to my original comment. How about this:

    The guy who throws his friend on the grenade to save his platoon. Hero?
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    When did this scarecrow become the topic?
    uh.

    When you said this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    Spock was a socialist POS. The needs of the many are not going to help themselves at the expense of this one.
    I guess you really don't know this thing is on. And lack the ability to come back from your emotionally charged political statements.

    Have a nice Thanksgiving. Hope it's not too socialist by the family pulling together and contributing to the meal and festivities.

    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    uh.

    When you said this?



    I guess you really don't know this thing is on. And lack the ability to come back from your emotionally charged political statements.

    Have a nice Thanksgiving. Hope it's not too socialist by the family pulling together and contributing to the meal and festivities.

    What thing is on? do you think an internet argument has meaning? You a trekki or something? Have I offended your love of Spock? I addressed a quote, you interjected the act and I take it as an attempted scarecrow.

    As far as Thanksgiving, thanks for the thought, but I'm working, too much to do and family is too far away. You enjoy a good one though.
    Last edited by Daylen; 11-24-2011 at 04:55 PM.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    What a large majority of you are not processing is that the best methods to serve the needs of the many are obtained by purposefully, and meaningfully assessing the needs of every single individual.

    We (as in "society") use all encompassing terms to try and discuss how we stand on a subject, typically, with little to no deep, rational thought or critical thinking applied.

    This is how you end up with a "Republican vs Democratic" party. People think it is easier and, specifically, more "special" to belong to some specific group that you can "generalize" as doing things the way you would like.



    A large portion of our society does not like to "think" about any given equation or issue.

    The solution is not to answer for them, but to get them to apply themselves, and actually think.

    The problem is that the "Needs of the many" types will use this fact as a way to push their agenda. "Let us think for you!" makes it seem so much "easier" to some people. They buy into it, and this gives the statistical numbers needed to push socialistic ideas for example.


    Let me remind the Trekkies amongst us that Kirk went back for Spock, endangering a large number of his crew (The many) in doing so. The rescuing of Spock led to many more successful adventures (Hey, the Vulcan can talk to Gracie ok? He was also responsible for the theorem that led to time travel in the Klingon Bird of Prey) that may not have been possible without the individual.

    When it comes to life, be Spock. Don't simply put a red shirt on and walk around, doing what you're told. We all know how that ends.
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    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowfiveoh View Post
    What a large majority of you are not processing is that the best methods to serve the needs of the many are obtained by purposefully, and meaningfully assessing the needs of every single individual.

    We (as in "society") use all encompassing terms to try and discuss how we stand on a subject, typically, with little to no deep, rational thought or critical thinking applied.

    This is how you end up with a "Republican vs Democratic" party. People think it is easier and, specifically, more "special" to belong to some specific group that you can "generalize" as doing things the way you would like.



    A large portion of our society does not like to "think" about any given equation or issue.

    The solution is not to answer for them, but to get them to apply themselves, and actually think.

    The problem is that the "Needs of the many" types will use this fact as a way to push their agenda. "Let us think for you!" makes it seem so much "easier" to some people. They buy into it, and this gives the statistical numbers needed to push socialistic ideas for example.


    Let me remind the Trekkies amongst us that Kirk went back for Spock, endangering a large number of his crew (The many) in doing so. The rescuing of Spock led to many more successful adventures (Hey, the Vulcan can talk to Gracie ok? He was also responsible for the theorem that led to time travel in the Klingon Bird of Prey) that may not have been possible without the individual.

    When it comes to life, be Spock. Don't simply put a red shirt on and walk around, doing what you're told. We all know how that ends.
    I take it you are advocating a classical liberal (what was called liberal in the 1700s not since the 1900s) position? The most people can be the happiest if government leaves them alone because only the individual can know their needs and wants and how to achieve them the best. If so I must agree, though I don't care for looking to Roddenberry's works for hero figures because of the baggage he piled upon it.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SourKraut View Post
    Of the two choices offered, which do you think is most important, the "Greater Good", or the "Good of the Individual"?

    I am sure some will label me selfish, but I am inclined to believe that the good of the individual is of upmost importance. Does anyone disagree? Why?

    Thanks- s.K.
    I ASSUme I'm allowed to determine what is best for me, but who gets to decide what is best for the majority? Because in many scenarios I may believe that what is best for me is ALSO best for the majority, but some (perhaps even an ignorant majority) may feel that these will be different things at times. Is it better to let an ignorant majority decide what is best for them or for an educated individual or group decide what is best for the majority? NOW, we're getting somewhere. And no, an equally-ignorant elected group of representatives for the ignorant majority is not the solution.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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