Gun Free Mall now interecepting customer cell signals.

Short Pump Town Center - That bastion of the American Way, a place where the tools of self defense are barred but where the cutting edge invasive surveillance that would make any police state jealous is just another business tool.


They are intercepting customer signals (which I thought was illegal) and tracking them through the mall area. In case you forgot why this is not a place for anyone who cares about personal freedom, not to mention the right to self defense, here is a bit of a reminder. One of only 2 malls in America with this new tech.

http://www.theverge.com/2011/11/23/...ck-shoppers-location-via-their-cellphone-this

I wonder how long until they listen into the calls or even the cell phone cameras to see if maybe someone is concealed carrying there (since OC is strictly a no-no at Short Pump Town Center)

Actually, they're tracking the broadcasting signal to see the location of the devices to see where people are going in the mall, to learn popular spots, etc. It's not pulling your personal information. It's no different than your cell phone broadcasting anywhere else you are at, only difference, they're capturing that signal being broadcasted in the air.

I personally agree with it and see no issue. If I don't want to participate (which I have no reason not to), I can turn my phone off or shop elsewhere.

So if someone is outside the mall and their info is pulled how can they opt out? Malls do not need information like this.

Skeptic said:

They are intercepting customer signals...

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No, they're not, at least not the voice signal. They're doing what every cell phone tower does, including those belonging to networks you're not subscribed to: they're receiving the roaming or connection signal that is broadcast continuously by your phone whenever it's on, even if you're not making a call. It doesn't identify you in any way, and can't be connected to you except by the network to which you subscribe.

...and tracking them through the mall area.

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This is no different than using cameras or hired observers to do the same thing. Tracking traffic flow through stores is a long-standing practice. It's the basis of every store's design and floor plan.

I wonder how long until they listen into the calls or even the cell phone cameras to see if maybe someone is concealed carrying there

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Those three things are: impossible; impossible; and, the lowest possible priority.

KBCraig said:

No, they're not, at least not the voice signal.

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I didn't say they were currently intercepting the voice signal, but they are intercepting signals. They have no business intercepting those signals, IMO.

Personally just another reason to not go to the place. I am not going to shut my cell phone off any more than I am going to leave my gun home.

Skeptic said:

Personally just another reason to not go to the place.

I am not going to shut my cell phone off any more than I am going to leave my gun home.

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Pearls of wisdom. :dude: (wish we had a "thumb's up" icon.)

If I even went to malls, I would avoid this one. I'll much rather give my money to a China supporting Walmart before I give my money to a gun-free, person tracking mall.

my 2 cents

KBCraig said:

Those three things are: impossible; impossible; and, the lowest possible priority.

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Not impossible at all , all they need to do is introduce a virus into your phone probably through bluetooth.

gm2max said:

If I even went to malls, I would avoid this one. I'll much rather give my money to a China supporting Walmart before I give my money to a gun-free, person tracking mall.

my 2 cents

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+1

I havn't been in a mall in agies, the stores can all be found locally or online why go to a super building to walk around in a gun free zone. lol

Originally Posted by Skeptic

Personally just another reason to not go to the place.

I am not going to shut my cell phone off any more than I am going to leave my gun home.

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MilProGuy said:

Pearls of wisdom. :dude: (wish we had a "thumb's up" icon.)

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You mean this one?..

It's right there below - just copy and paste it.

OMG! Won't Someone Please Think of the Children!!
Or, in other words... big whoop.

So the mall knows that 90 percent of the cell phone signals are acquired entering the North Entrance and then circulate clockwise around the mall. Hey, maybe we could take advantage of that and increase ad revenue?

So the mall finds out that one day a week, the number of cell phones in the Mall doubles for about 6 hours,... something that never happens any other day of the week. Maybe that's a sign to let merchants know that might be a good day to have their best sales.

So the mall finds out there's a marked increase of cell phones located in the Food Court starting at 11:15 instead of 11:45 like everyone thought.

Skeptic said:

I didn't say they were currently intercepting the voice signal, but they are intercepting signals. They have no business intercepting those signals, IMO.

Personally just another reason to not go to the place. I am not going to shut my cell phone off any more than I am going to leave my gun home.

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So, what about everyone who buys CB radios or scanners from Radio Shack to listen to the Fire Dept or Police Dept dispatch? That's actually a bad example, since you can actually LISTEN to everything they say, where the mall is only tracking the location of patrons inside their facility.

Skeptic said:

Not impossible at all , all they need to do is introduce a virus into your phone probably through bluetooth.

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You have absolutely zero understanding of what you're trying to talk about technically. Bluetooth has a range of about 30-32 feet or so and you can't connect to any other device via bluetooth unless you ACCEPT it or pair the devices. They don't just automatically connect to random things and then leave the door open to receive a virus (which by the way, is VERY rare on bluetooth).

Imagine your phone as a blinking infrared beacon on your head. No one walking around sees the light blinking unless you look at it with an infrared camera. That's all they're doing, LOOKING at what you already have. It's not an invasion of privacy, they are not screening phone calls, or activating camera phones, etc.

Do you also freak out when stores ask for your zipcode when you check out too??? LOL!

CHILINVLN said:

So, what about everyone who buys CB radios or scanners from Radio Shack to listen to the Fire Dept or Police Dept dispatch? That's actually a bad example, since you can actually LISTEN to everything they say, where the mall is only tracking the location of patrons inside their facility.

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Actually, that may be going away soon.

Some police departments are switching to digitally scrambled radio, so they cannot be eavesdropped on by criminals using scanners. Some drug dealers have gotten very sophisticated as of late.

CHILINVLN said:

You have absolutely zero understanding of what you're trying to talk about technically. Bluetooth has a range of about 30-32 feet or so and you can't connect to any other device via bluetooth unless you ACCEPT it or pair the devices. They don't just automatically connect to random things and then leave the door open to receive a virus (which by the way, is VERY rare on bluetooth).

Imagine your phone as a blinking infrared beacon on your head. No one walking around sees the light blinking unless you look at it with an infrared camera. That's all they're doing, LOOKING at what you already have. It's not an invasion of privacy, they are not screening phone calls, or activating camera phones, etc.

Do you also freak out when stores ask for your zipcode when you check out too??? LOL!

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He may not understand it but I do and for the most part you're right.

There is a concern if the customer leaves his phone set as a WiFi hotspot. I do that way too often when I want to work on my Ipad instead of that little phone screen.

It is fairly innocent but I can't imagine why anyone would be in favor of it. It's just one more thing that'll be abused eventually.

Yes I refuse to give my zip code or anything else and I wear a hat just so the cameras can't easily identify me.

They are breaking the law. The ECPA, from 1986, made it illegal to listen to cell phones. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Communications_Privacy_Act

While scanners could hear cell phones, high ranking politicians were being recorded and so on. This was the first time in American History that a block of radio frequencies were made illegal to listen to in the US.

Scanners were still made that could hear them if you "clipped" a diode or bought a "frequency converter". They outlawed the scanners that could have the diode "clipped" and the converters a few years later.

The real reason, if you research it, for this law was that at the time, cell phone companies were promoting "secure" phone conversations, without actually using any encryption at all. The cell companies did not want to invest in the expensive technology to encrypt their signals, so they spent less money lobbying congress. And alas, ECPA was born.

What is really funny, 25 years later, is that you can till hear phone conversations on "non cell" frequencies (because not all the companies are in the "Blocked" portion anymore) that are in the clear.

So, back on topic, not only are they infringing on our right to keep and bear arms, they are breaking the law by monitoring cell phone freqs that have been deemed "blocked" by the US Government.

Carl

No, they're not listening to the conversations Carl. They're just tracking the signal from place to place. That signal does not carry audio BTW.

That said, it's still a bad thing, just not illegal, and I wouldn't think of going there.

I will buy that, but when we (Ham Radio Ops and Scanner Listeners) were told that we needed to stop listening (monitoring) and disconnect any devices we had that "listened" or "decoded" because it is against the law, we did.

I guess my question is: How did they purchase the equipment to monitor the signals, if that equipment is only able to be purchased legally by LE and the phone companies?

Because remember, the US Government "Blocked" any and all devices that could "tune" those freqs.

Carl

This is the same technology and approach that is used to observe traffic flow.

You know when you watch the TV news and they show the map of the area and say "Traffic flowing nicely on highway 99, but a little slower over on highway 200"

They way they know that, is by observiing the speed at which your cell phone grabs onto a tower, and then releases and grabs onto the next tower. If we know the towers are X miles apart, then we can determine it took you Y time to get there therefore your speed must be Z.

Yawn.


Some FastFood places are using readers on the drive through lanes that read toll tags, record the toll tag, record your order, then when you visit the next time, (cause the reader observed your car in the drive up lane), suggest things to you based on past orders. they don't know WHO you are, just the tag number and that you got a burger no pickle.
Intrusive or smart business?

t11spanner said:

I will buy that, but when we (Ham Radio Ops and Scanner Listeners) were told that we needed to stop listening (monitoring) and disconnect any devices we had that "listened" or "decoded" because it is against the law, we did.

I guess my question is: How did they purchase the equipment to monitor the signals, if that equipment is only able to be purchased legally by LE and the phone companies?

Because remember, the US Government "Blocked" any and all devices that could "tune" those freqs.

Carl

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You have your frequencies, actually, sub frequencies, mixed up Carl.
This is just a dead carrier signal probably with the ESN encoded. You are allowed to listen to it although I can't think of anything more boring except maybe listening to water drip.

Lots of stuff being emitted by that phone other than audio.

Now the equipment itself does have to be licensed but that's just a matter of getting the permit from the FCC.

Most people don't understand the law pertaining to monitoring Cell phones. As long as the equipment is properly licensed you are allowed to monitor all aspects of the call, including the audio. The illegal part is repeating or recording any part of the call.

HAM's and especially scanner people aren't allowed access to everything from DC to daylight. There is a lot of restricted airspace. That's what makes it so much fun getting it.

If you want to have a lot of fun, get the daily encryption key from a tame police radio shop employee and monitor the text. Expensive and illegal equipment but loads of fun. Watch the surplus sales.