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Thread: A parking lot bill...

  1. #1
    Regular Member DontTreadOnMeVa's Avatar
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    Angry A parking lot bill...

    IMO, the parking lot bill should be at the top of the list for the legislative agenda.

    I can not express how frustrated and angry I am this has not already passed. As it is, I am forced to be disarmed during my commute to and from work five days a week. An employer should not be able to force any of us from having a firearm secured in our personal vehicle and as a result be disarmed to and from work.

    Do we know of anyone sponsoring this bill for the upcoming legislative session? I already spoke to congressmen and he claimed someone was already suppose to be sponsoring the bill. He of course did not know for sure who that was.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    I agree 100%. My last two employers have prohibits firearms in personal vehicles on company property. Some folks say do it anyway. My problem is that a co-worker may see carrying if i stop on the way home from work and that could get back to my employer. I'd love to carry to and from work but with the economy the way it is I need my job more. I would support the parking lot bill again this year.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  3. #3
    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    contrast that with one day this week where several of us at my place of work set up a bb gun range in our warehouse. Not our everyday work schedule I'll admit, what happened was one guy had just bought the bb gun and wanted to get it sighted so we pinned a couple of targets up and took turns firing and adjusting the scope until one of us (our manager actually) hit dead center bullseye, at which point we packed up and went home

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    Regular Member Old Virginia Joe's Avatar
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    I agree this situation sucks, and I don't like it either. HOWEVER, what I hate even MORE is a law-body making me allow something on my PRIVATE property that I don't agree with! I assume the boss also owns the parking lot, right? Imagine if you are the business owner, and your LIBERAL employee gets a law to force you to allow THEM to do something you don't like at work, maybe like hanging a pro-Jane Fonda poster in his work space, under freedom of speech. How would you like that? Let us be careful what law-making we promote that denies the rights of private property owners to set the standards for what does and does not go on on their OWN property. Otherwise, we are just hypocrites, like the libtards. Sometimes, holding onto freedom for all requires us to hold our noses and just deal with it. This proposal is NOT a conservative principle. Our founders would probably not agree with the proposal, IMHO.
    Last edited by Old Virginia Joe; 11-24-2011 at 09:31 AM. Reason: typo
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    Hey, Libtards, it's the "Bill of Rights," not the "Bill of Needs" . . . . .

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Virginia Joe View Post
    I agree this situation sucks, and I don't like it either. HOWEVER, what I hate even MORE is a law-body making me allow something on my PRIVATE property that I don't agree with! I assume the boss also owns the parking lot, right? Imagine if you are the business owner, and your LIBERAL employee gets a law a force you to allow THEM to do something you don't like at work, maybe like hanging a pro-Jane Fonda poster in his work space, under freedom of speech. How would you like that? Let us be careful what law-making we promote that denies the rights of private property owners to set the standards for what does and does not go on on their OWN property. Otherwise, we are just hypocrites, like the libtards. Sometimes, holding onto freedom for all requires us to hold our noses and just deal with it. This proposal is NOT a conservative principle. Our founders would probably not agree with the proposal, IMHO.
    Very good points Joe and points I've made many times. The bill has to be written carefully to protect private property rights and not contribute to P4P.

    The issue isn't forcing a business owner to allow something he doesn't want to...rather to allow someone to travel from home to work with his gun and be able to store it safely while at work.

    The only way I'd support it is if the bill were written much like the school property statute, minus the permit clause.

  6. #6
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    I agree 100%. My last two employers have prohibits firearms in personal vehicles on company property. Some folks say do it anyway. My problem is that a co-worker may see carrying if i stop on the way home from work and that could get back to my employer. I'd love to carry to and from work but with the economy the way it is I need my job more. I would support the parking lot bill again this year.
    "My problem is that a co-worker may see carrying if i stop on the way home from work and that could get back to my employer."

    Ahh, but that doesn't prove that you had the firearm in your car at work. I know where you're coming from and I use to worry about the same thing. So I checked with corporate security (not the rent-a-security types) at the last company where I worked (I'm retired) and they told me. "Hell, I'd bet 50% of the cars on these lots have guns in them". I would say he was exaggerating a bit but the point was well made and taken. They didn't seem to see a problem with it.

    This is going to vary from place to place and I do see valid and good arguments on both sides of the issue. One could take a don't-ask-don't-tell approach and will be almost guaranteed to never have a problem.... unless his vehicle is broken in to and the gun is stolen. Or one could, if possible, just park off of company property and there won't be any problems. And how does this work when a company is leasing the property? Is the parking lot then considered part of company premises?


    I don't see an easy answer to this one.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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  7. #7
    Regular Member streetdoc's Avatar
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    This bill needs to be properly worded, no permits required and apply to local & state government. Lets look at the states that have passed this legislation and craft a proposed bill that would take in all of our requirements and safeguards.
    'Till the last landings made, and we stand unafraid, on a shore not mortal has seen,
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  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Southern Boy, While someone seeing my gun after work doesn't prove I had it there, it does give my company cause to ask to search my car. Of course I could refuse and then they could just fire me.

    Peter, I like the way you put it and agree that the school type statute without the permit clause is the way to go.

    Old Virginia Joe, I don't want to trample private property rights either. The thing is most of these places don't ban firearms on the property except for employees. In my last two jobs customers were allowed to carry in the store but I couldn't keep mine locked in my vehicle. That is the sillyness I want to get rid of.
    Last edited by thebigsd; 11-24-2011 at 09:49 AM.
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  9. #9
    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    My property rights too

    While my vehicle maybe parked on my employers lot, the vehicle and what is in it is still my property, and should be off limits to them! Just because I work for someone doesn't give them the right to search my property, so make this an employee rights bill.

  10. #10
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    In New Mexico, where I have a sister, the law equates the interior of your vehicle with your home (WRT firearms at least, maybe more, IANAL). This might be the way to go to address the parking lot issue as well as the forced employer search aspect. It also clarifies the issue of who's property rights prevail inside one parties' private car on another parties' private lot.
    Last edited by architect; 11-24-2011 at 11:06 AM. Reason: to appear not to be stupid

  11. #11
    Regular Member streetdoc's Avatar
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    The states with the strongest "parking lot gun laws" are Florida, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Minnesota and Oklahoma. The next list of states allow for more restrictions but at least still permit some sort of legal guns at work; Alaska, Arizona, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas, Michigan, Mississippi, Nebraska, Ohio, and Utah. (Ref; http://hrm-partners.com/hr-news/%E2%...oyers?&lang=en ) Also on the list but I don't know where they stand are Maine, Texas and Wisconsin.
    'Till the last landings made, and we stand unafraid, on a shore not mortal has seen,
    'Till the last bugle call, sounds taps for us all,
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  12. #12
    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    actual incident

    several years ago, while safety manager for a large aerospace company, the HR manager came to me 'extremely concerned' someone had a valid conceal carry permit and was overheard discussing firearms in the breakroom. HR was concerned this individual had a firearm in the parking lot...expressly against corp policy. (this caused me more than a bit of worry since i to have a ccw and had to teach a NRA pistol class that afternoon to the boy scounts so i had a gaggle of firearms in my personal vehicle which was parked in the company parking lot - on lunch break i quietly moved my vehicle out of the parking lot surrounding the building and parked on the public street)

    i seriously tried to disuade the HR manager from her course of action which was to bring the individual up to discuss this issue w/the VP after she and the unarmed rent a cop personally searched the individual's vehicle for a firearm. when i discerned she was 'hell bent' on her quest i went to the EEO manager and we talked about it and then realized, the organization did not own the building but only renting it. several hurried fone calls went back East to our parent group discussing this and pointing out the original policy was written for Maryland - our headquarters not for the Colorado operations! It was pointed out to those back East that Colorado had a large CCW/OC carry population and the embarrassment of HR 'forcing' someone to open their vehicle w/o propable cause could result in a significant financial judgement against the company.

    apparently they checked w/counsel and the HR manager received a call from her director back East and was told to stand down on this issue and the president advised the local VP to control his ppl as they try to overachieve...

    once the gossip spread through the work force, it was interesting to note how many employees, myself included, parked their vehicles in surrounding parking lots and on the public streets...hmmm

    my safety cohort in another aerospace company indicated they do not worry about firearms in employee parking lot vehicles per se unless they have a reason - disgruntled due to termination etc., and then they just call the LEO to deal w/the individual to get them off the property.

    (what is two cents worth in today's economy?)

    wabbit

    ps: i truly did not care about my co-workers knowing i carry, teach NRA and CCW classes as it is off time and trust me if i got questioned about it they would see a gentleman lose his cool big time.
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 11-24-2011 at 11:19 AM. Reason: clarification

  13. #13
    Regular Member Old Virginia Joe's Avatar
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    You know, this thread is exactly why I LOVE me some OCDO!! Great discussions on valid topics, with people of good will from many sides learning from each other while we "jealously guard" our rights, in compliance with the Constitution. Keep up the good work . . . . .

    I work for the state, 16 years, and drive a state car, and even carry a state badge, have a CHP, yet am not allowed to carry a weapon to protect myself! Tell me THAT does not stink. And, as a man, they consistently give me the most ghetto dangerous type territory to work. . . . .
    VCDL, Army Vet, Virginia Native

    Hey, Libtards, it's the "Bill of Rights," not the "Bill of Needs" . . . . .

    If the 2A does not apply to modern weapons, then the 1A does not apply to modern communications like the Internet! How do you like them apples!?

  14. #14
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Southern Boy, While someone seeing my gun after work doesn't prove I had it there, it does give my company cause to ask to search my car. Of course I could refuse and then they could just fire me.

    Peter, I like the way you put it and agree that the school type statute without the permit clause is the way to go.

    Old Virginia Joe, I don't want to trample private property rights either. The thing is most of these places don't ban firearms on the property except for employees. In my last two jobs customers were allowed to carry in the store but I couldn't keep mine locked in my vehicle. That is the sillyness I want to get rid of.
    "Southern Boy, While someone seeing my gun after work doesn't prove I had it there, it does give my company cause to ask to search my car. Of course I could refuse and then they could just fire me."

    It doesn't give them cause to search your car... they could make up a reason to do that for just about anything at anytime they want. And since Virginia is an "employment at will" state, you can be terminated for any reason or no reason at all. At my last job, a major federal government defense contractor, they would conduct random searches of ones packages and purses (women) when we entered the building. I never saw or heard of them searching an employee's car for anything and if they wanted to do that to mine.... well, it wasn't going to happen. I'd just get a job somewhere else if they decided to let me go.

    Best thing to do is to keep one's mouth shut and IF you decide to take your firearm to work and leave it in your car, don't advertise this unless the company has no problem with it. If someone were to see me carrying outside of work after hours, and it did happen a number of times with me at my last job, then that's my business. The folks who saw me carrying never mentioned it and it never came up on any conversation.

    So if you perceive a potential problem or reason to be concerned and you can't afford to lose your job, don't invite a situation where your position may be put in jeopardy. In such cases, prudence should be your watchword.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 11-24-2011 at 12:36 PM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Constitutional Carry would be a much better goal.

    I think a bill to remove the infringements on ones choice of carry method would be a much better goal, i.e Constitutional Carry. I know some here incorrectly consider CC a privilege instead of recognizing the permit requirement as the unconstitutional infringement that it is. Unfortunately, it seems that it is easier for people to come up with silly slogans to fuel arguments between people simply based upon ones method of carry.

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    I have respect for the private property rights issue. However when you start employing 10-20-500 people? And build a big ol parking lot... You already are giving up alot of property rights. Should a private employer be able to deny anyone from entering their property; like a private homeowner can? What if the business says people with red hair are prohibited from entry? Point is when you start a business alot of the property rights are given up anyway!

    So just like others mentioned similar to the new rules for dropping the kids off at school. And only applies to inside of vehicle. I dont see a major issue compared to a de factor 5day a week carry ban for many virginians

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toad View Post
    I think a bill to remove the infringements on ones choice of carry method would be a much better goal, i.e Constitutional Carry. I know some here incorrectly consider CC a privilege instead of recognizing the permit requirement as the unconstitutional infringement that it is. Unfortunately, it seems that it is easier for people to come up with silly slogans to fuel arguments between people simply based upon ones method of carry.
    Toad while I beleve constitional carry is the ultimate goal, it would not stop employers from ordering no firearms in their parking lot, which is the problem we are discussing in this thread. The parking lot bill must protect employees from employers.

  18. #18
    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf_shadow View Post
    While my vehicle maybe parked on my employers lot, the vehicle and what is in it is still my property, and should be off limits to them! Just because I work for someone doesn't give them the right to search my property, so make this an employee rights bill.
    +1000

    To me it is so black and white. Respect property rights of the employee as well as the employer. What is in my car is my business.

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    well guys, at least you have a voice.

    Me, being military, have no chance in hell to take a firearm to work.

    ......(remember fort knox shooting and how it could have been ended quick)


    It would be nice, but its too touchy, so I just arm up when I get home, and go about my day. Many times have I gone home to arm up just to go back out again. Totally worth it IMO.

  20. #20
    Regular Member DontTreadOnMeVa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Virginia Joe View Post
    I agree this situation sucks, and I don't like it either. HOWEVER, what I hate even MORE is a law-body making me allow something on my PRIVATE property that I don't agree with! I assume the boss also owns the parking lot, right? Imagine if you are the business owner, and your LIBERAL employee gets a law to force you to allow THEM to do something you don't like at work, maybe like hanging a pro-Jane Fonda poster in his work space, under freedom of speech. How would you like that? Let us be careful what law-making we promote that denies the rights of private property owners to set the standards for what does and does not go on on their OWN property. Otherwise, we are just hypocrites, like the libtards. Sometimes, holding onto freedom for all requires us to hold our noses and just deal with it. This proposal is NOT a conservative principle. Our founders would probably not agree with the proposal, IMHO.

    I see no parallel at all to the argument your making. We are talking about a firearm that is secured, unseen in the employees vehicle. If an employer was to ever even see it there would have to be a vehicle search. Your argument does not jive with that situation at all. BTW, in my case the public can open carry. I however cant even carry wile commuting. IMHO, that is not something the founders or anyone that loves freedom should agree with.

  21. #21
    Regular Member DontTreadOnMeVa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    +1000

    To me it is so black and white. Respect property rights of the employee as well as the employer. What is in my car is my business.
    Amen Brother....Amen.



    Quote Originally Posted by gm2max View Post
    well guys, at least you have a voice.

    Me, being military, have no chance in hell to take a firearm to work.

    ......(remember fort knox shooting and how it could have been ended quick)


    It would be nice, but its too touchy, so I just arm up when I get home, and go about my day. Many times have I gone home to arm up just to go back out again. Totally worth it IMO.

    I am aware of this issue and think it is sickening. I was told, but am not sure....that firearms are banned from even off base military housing? If so, I cant express how offensive that idea is to me. Not just for the military personal, but the idea of their families ability to defend themselves being compromised as well is beyond the pail. ...on base or off.

    Back on topic, does anyone know who maybe sponsoring a parking lot bill? I would like to touch base with them to encourage that the bill crafted.

  22. #22
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DontTreadOnMeVa View Post
    Amen Brother....Amen.






    I am aware of this issue and think it is sickening. I was told, but am not sure....that firearms are banned from even off base military housing? If so, I cant express how offensive that idea is to me. Not just for the military personal, but the idea of their families ability to defend themselves being compromised as well is beyond the pail. ...on base or off.

    Back on topic, does anyone know who maybe sponsoring a parking lot bill? I would like to touch base with them to encourage that the bill crafted.
    "I was told, but am not sure....that firearms are banned from even off base military housing"

    How can they do this? Suppose you and your family choose to live in a townhouse development which is entirely off base. How can they tell you what you can and cannot have in your own home? Suppose the firearm is your wife's, or yours and your wife is in the military. What do they do then? And what next? Tell you that you cannot have a big screen TV in your home... or perhaps a king size bed? And what are they going to do to find out about your property; inspect your home??
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  23. #23
    Regular Member DontTreadOnMeVa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    "I was told, but am not sure....that firearms are banned from even off base military housing"

    How can they do this? Suppose you and your family choose to live in a townhouse development which is entirely off base. How can they tell you what you can and cannot have in your own home? Suppose the firearm is your wife's, or yours and your wife is in the military. What do they do then? And what next? Tell you that you cannot have a big screen TV in your home... or perhaps a king size bed? And what are they going to do to find out about your property; inspect your home??
    As I said, I don't know how that works. I am only going by an in-laws comment who is a navy wife. She lamented not being able to have a firearm at home, because it was military housing.....and she said they are not allowed to keep a firearm in the house even off base. Exactly that the means, the policy of the navy and how it works in practice is something someone else will have to clarify. I have been to there home in Norfolk, but you don't have past any kind of check point or anything,,,but it is navy housing....town houses. I am sure someone in the navy can clear that up.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gm2max View Post
    well guys, at least you have a voice. Me, being military, have no chance in hell to take a firearm to work. <snip>
    The ban on weapons on military bases affects more than just active duty personnel. I have to visit a customer at Ft. Lee a few times a month and have to disarm at home 1.5 hours away. So for the time on base and 3 hours of travel I am disarmed. I often stop on the way home to get lunch and/or run an errand so am also unarmed during those activities.

    Addressing military bases is something that has to be taken up at Federal level and with the military commander. It has been argued that firearms could be allowed if the base commander had the nads to allow it. Unfortunately at that rank their job is more political than military and one bad decision can cost them their career. It would be interesting if ONE nad-laden commander actually didn't care about his career more than his personnel and pushed the issue.

  25. #25
    Regular Member USNA69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    The ban on weapons on military bases affects more than just active duty personnel. I have to visit a customer at Ft. Lee a few times a month and have to disarm at home 1.5 hours away. So for the time on base and 3 hours of travel I am disarmed. I often stop on the way home to get lunch and/or run an errand so am also unarmed during those activities.

    Addressing military bases is something that has to be taken up at Federal level and with the military commander. It has been argued that firearms could be allowed if the base commander had the nads to allow it. Unfortunately at that rank their job is more political than military and one bad decision can cost them their career. It would be interesting if ONE nad-laden commander actually didn't care about his career more than his personnel and pushed the issue.
    Which brings us to USMC Camp Allen in Norfolk. Camp Allen has a shooting range located inside a gated and guarded portion of the Camp.
    A quote from their web site:
    We are open to:
    • Military (active, reserve, retirees and dependants)
    • Law enforcement officers
    • DOD personnel
    • Department of Homeland Security Personnel
    • Federal Government employees
    So, all of these users routinely carry their properly stowed firearms and ammunition through this guarded gate, as have I on many ocassions.

    It gets better. The guarded gate through which one must pass in order to get to the shooting range lies about 180 feet from the boundary of Camp Allen Elementary School, which is A Norfolk public school, per the web site of Norfolk Public Schools - http://ww2.nps.k12.va.us/education/s...iondetailid=92

    Not only am I and many others bringing firearms and ammunition onto a military base, we are also necessarily passing well within 1000 feet of a PUBLIC school in violation of federal law (GFSZA).

    Oh, did I neglect to mention that firearms and ammunition are sold at the Camp Allen Marine Corps Exchange, which is on base, but not behind a fenced or guarded portion?

    It would appear that the local military commander's policy trumps federal law ... at least in this case.

    SEMPER FI!!!

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