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Thread: OSPD at it again - Tries to demand permit, fails

  1. #1
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    OSPD at it again - Tries to demand permit, fails

    Went to the Old Saybrook Police Department to pick up FOI documents on Saturday Nov 19th. I was not concealing my firearm as there are no laws or ordinances mandating I do so.

    The officer/dispatcher behind the glass at the front desk decided he 'needed to see my permit'. I informed him 'no he didn't'. This happened twice. I left without detention or further harassment.

    LEOs in CT have no reason or powers to request pistol permits from people who are carrying their firearms unconcealed. This officer has hopefully learned that. If not, I advise him to read the CGS and Terry v. Ohio. This officer chose to request my permit, but (wisely) decided not to escalate the matter when I refused to provide it.

    I had recently discussed the behavior of Old Saybrook's officers with Chief Spera and he told me that he 'expects someone open carrying to be treated like any other member of the public'.

    Listen to the audio and ask yourself if any other member of the public would have been asked for further ID (I already provided my driver's license to prove who I was for the pickup) for simply walking into the PD lobby.

    You can hear the officer/dispatcher request my permit and get denied at around :30 and 2:50. He follows the second one with a loud "Whats that?" as if to ask what I said. It is clear he heard me both times. It is also clear he is has no legal obligation or power to demand anything from me.



    Audio
    Last edited by Rich B; 11-25-2011 at 07:15 PM.

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    Well done.

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    You'd think they'd know you will be recording everything, and just play nice with you.

    Rich, what was the guy's facial expression when you said "no you don't". Did he pretend you didn't say anything and just gloss over it?

    Don
    Last edited by dcmdon; 11-26-2011 at 07:15 AM.
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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Great job. Polite and cut and dried.

    Just a fine point, analyzing the interchange, if he said 'I'd -like- to see your PP', you may have been forced into a dialog (why;because;it's not concealed; blah, blah, blah)

    BUT, by saying 'I -need- to see your PP' (after saying 'I'd like to ask you one more thing', emphasis on -ask-...he's not demanding it, you're not driving a car), you can simply say (a truth) 'No, you don't'. Period


    Most excellent. BTW, Connecticut is not any easy State to get a PP in, it appears.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post

    Most excellent. BTW, Connecticut is not any easy State to get a PP in, it appears.
    Not to side track things, but it actually is an easy state to get a pP in. There is a process. If you follow the process, you will get your permit. Some towns may jerk you around by trying to extend the process and add extralegal steps, but you have choices. You can either give in, or take your case to the BFPE.

    Either way, you get your permit.

    Remember that in 95% of cases you simply fill out the form and submit with credentials and checks.

    Don
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post

    LEOs in CT have no reason or powers to request pistol permits from people who are carrying their firearms unconcealed. This officer has hopefully learned that. If not, I advise him to read the CGS and Terry v. Ohio. This officer chose to request my permit, but (wisely) decided not to escalate the matter when I refused to provide it.Audio
    What is your reasoning as to why a CT LEO cannot demand production of a permit when open carrying?

    For example:

    Is it because the statute does not require open carriers to produce thee permit on demand, but does so for concealed carriers?

    Or is it that it is not lawful under the 4th amendment for LEOs to demand production of permits absent reasonable suspicion that the open carrier does not hold a permit?

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    Great job, Rich!

    Thanks for standing firm for rights

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    What is your reasoning as to why a CT LEO cannot demand production of a permit when open carrying?

    For example:

    Is it because the statute does not require open carriers to produce thee permit on demand, but does so for concealed carriers?

    Or is it that it is not lawful under the 4th amendment for LEOs to demand production of permits absent reasonable suspicion that the open carrier does not hold a permit?
    It's both. The first because "concealed carry" is viewed as a privilege and can therefore be regulated. The second because it is a right, not a privilege, and to impose on a right requires such.

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    The other factor that comes into play is the fact that CT law says you must carry your PP but does not say that you must produce it to a LEO at his request.

    I know that both the federal language around a pilot's certificate and the state language around a drivers license both state that you must not only carry this documentation but provide it to any LEO upon their request if you are exercising the PRIVILEGES granted by these licenses.
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  10. #10
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcmdon View Post
    Rich, what was the guy's facial expression when you said "no you don't". Did he pretend you didn't say anything and just gloss over it?
    The first time he ignored it and we went on filling out his form.

    The second time you can hear the loud, audible "What was that?". I didn't see his face at this point as I had already grabbed the papers and started heading towards the door. I imagine he was not happy from his tone, but he apparently didn't get any help from the officers on hand and the OSPD officer who was pulling into the parking lot as I pulled out.
    Last edited by Rich B; 11-27-2011 at 02:04 PM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    What is your reasoning as to why a CT LEO cannot demand production of a permit when open carrying?
    Open carry is not RAS of a crime. Therefore the laws in this state do not specify whether or not I need to ID myself at all.

    Is it because the statute does not require open carriers to produce thee permit on demand, but does so for concealed carriers?
    I am aware of no law that mandates that someone concealing their firearm must produce ID, but obviously the murky waters surrounding RAS do change when you are concealed and print compared to when you are knowingly and prominently carrying unconcealed.

    Or is it that it is not lawful under the 4th amendment for LEOs to demand production of permits absent reasonable suspicion that the open carrier does not hold a permit?
    This as well. Our state has a statute:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sec. 53a-167a.
    Interfering with an officer: Class A misdemeanor. (a) A person is guilty of interfering with an officer when such person obstructs, resists, hinders or endangers any peace officer, special policeman appointed under section 29-18b, motor vehicle inspector designated under section 14-8 and certified pursuant to section 7-294d or firefighter in the performance of such peace officer's, special policeman's, motor vehicle inspector's or firefighter's duties.
    An officer is not 'in the performance of his duties' if he is illegally detaining someone with no RAS.

    This obviously puts a burden of liability on the carrier to make sure he has not accidentally given the officer any RAS. If I felt I was being detained I would have asked him to confirm this and I would have bluntly asked under what RAS I was being held. I would make my decision to comply or not based on this fact. It should be noted that the officer is likely to arrest someone anyway for this and it would have to be fought in court.

    http://www.jud.ct.gov/ji/criminal/part4/4.3-1.htm

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    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    GREAT!

    However, in my neck of the woods, I KNOW I will not have such luck when "it's my turn". It is probably a matter of time. Maybe it's because I've been illegally detained before my permit and not breaking any laws, that I'm just pessimistic.

    We'll see......

    Maybe they are just getting used to you!

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KIX View Post
    However, in my neck of the woods, I KNOW I will not have such luck when "it's my turn".
    How do you "know"? People have had run-ins before with New Britain PD before without any major negative issues.

  14. #14
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Talking entirely about non-gun issues, but illegal stops.

    Like a bad movie, I've been pulled over in Hartford and because I knew my rights (like when I exit my vehicle and locking my car) I have had issues. None very recently. But it has happened. I ended up getting charged with bogus traffic violations that NEVER happened, even with a witness. Told I "ran a stop sign" or "looked like someone they were looking for".

    Whenever I fought it, I got the whole "we're supposed to believe you over a sworn officer" BS.

    I had a copy like ten years ago SWEAR that my lights were not functional on my mustang. The "non functioning light" WAS A CORNER REFLECTOR!!!! Still, the judge said that he would nolle the whole deal after discussion with the "persecutor". Here is what bugs me: It's not that I "got away with it" as much as "they had a fishing expedition at my expense" kinda thing.

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

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