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Thread: Mill Creek in Violation of State Law

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran Right Wing Wacko's Avatar
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    Mill Creek in Violation of State Law

    12.12.110 Firearms prohibited.

    It is unlawful to carry a firearm in any park. This section shall not apply to police officers or to city employees acting pursuant to and in accordance with their authority and applicable law. This section shall not apply in designated and posted shooting, trap-shooting and skeet-shooting ranges in any park. (Ord. 2003-569 § 1)

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    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    So what are you going to do about it?
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

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    Campaign Veteran Right Wing Wacko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    So what are you going to do about it?
    At the minimum write some letters, however as a non-resident of the city I fully expect to be ignored.

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    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Right Wing Wacko View Post
    At the minimum write some letters, however as a non-resident of the city I fully expect to be ignored.
    Can do what I have done in the past, and put in that you frequently visit their city, love it there and spend money while you are there. Then explain that you will not be visiting any longer and letting your friends, family and various internet groups know not to patronize the city until the unlawful ordinance is repealed. Money speaks especially to cities that are broke right now, just have to show them that you might not be a resident, but you can still make an impact through social networking and word of mouth. Plus, if enough non-residents write the same type of letter it can start to really look bad for them. If you stop and think about the numbers for a moment. 1 person has ~15 family members (extended or otherwise), say 5 core friends and say what, ~120 facebook friends? That's 140 people you are potentially reaching, so if 10 of us here write letters, the impact is 10 fold on that... and those are just low ball numbers I just threw out there without any research so they might be wildly off... Just a thought to ponder

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Bookman;1656370]So what are you going to do about it?[/QUOTE]

    Well I took a look at the park sites and found no reference to the prohibition of any weapons, legal or not. The ordinances are still on the books tho. I found the "contact us" page and messaged the following people

    Community Development (Stephen C. Butler, Director, Tom Rogers, Planning Manager, Christi Amrine, Senior Planner, Camille Chriest, Senior planner,
    Sherrie Ringstad, Planning Specialist)
    Police Department (Bob Crannell, Police Chief, Robin Swanson, Support Services Mgr.)
    Recreation Division (Pam Olson, Recreation Supervisor, Brian Davern, Recreation Assistant, Kristen Froseth, Recreation Assistant)

    you can find them all at http://www.cityofmillcreek.com/CONTA...CTOBER_30.html

    I will post any replies.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    If you are going the "I spend money there" route. Also CC: their Chamber of Commerce organization.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady
    I am no victim, just a poor college student who looks to the day where the rich have the living piss taxed out of them.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    I have a reply by city atty.

    Mr. Laigaie,
    MCMC 12.12.110 is not enforced by the City of Mill Creek. MCMC 12.12.115 is not enforced to the extent it prohibits the mere possession of a firearm. The City does enforce other firearms related regulations consistent with state law.
    Best regards,

    Shane Moloney
    City Attorney
    City of Mill Creek
    Phone (425) 745-1891
    Fax (425) 745-9650


    I will ask 'why have a law you do not enforce'. The law implies a violation that is not there.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Thanks for dealing with this. I visit various parks in Mill Creek often and this info is nice to know.
    Hoplophobia is a social disease.

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    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
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    That was the same answer that Kitsap gave us a few years back when we started working on them. The finally relented when the local paper ran an editorial on it.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    new reply/final answer?

    Mr. Laigaie,
    I don't know the history behind the adoption of the ordinance, but I assume that it was adopted at a time that there was a common understanding that such ordinances were enforceable. My understanding is that these types of ordinances have been common up until the City of Seattle's ordinance banning possession in parks was recently held to be unenforceable.
    The City's police officers have been advised not to enforce the ban on possession of firearms in the parks. Amending the ordinance in the future is a possibility.
    Best regards,
    Shane Moloney
    City Attorney
    City of Mill Creek
    Phone (425) 745-1891
    Fax (425) 745-9650
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Campaign Veteran Right Wing Wacko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    Mr. Laigaie,
    I don't know the history behind the adoption of the ordinance, but I assume that it was adopted at a time that there was a common understanding that such ordinances were enforceable. My understanding is that these types of ordinances have been common up until the City of Seattle's ordinance banning possession in parks was recently held to be unenforceable.
    The City's police officers have been advised not to enforce the ban on possession of firearms in the parks. Amending the ordinance in the future is a possibility.
    Best regards,
    Shane Moloney
    City Attorney
    City of Mill Creek
    Phone (425) 745-1891
    Fax (425) 745-9650
    He would be wrong then.

    (Ord. 2003-569 § 1)

    The ordinance was passed in 2003
    Last edited by Right Wing Wacko; 11-29-2011 at 11:29 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    In addition to the opinion of the city attorney, how about letters to the council with the ability to amend/repeal the law? Explain how the unlawful ordinance affects the social acceptance of lawful activities and encourages false calls of law-abiding citizens violating unenforceable unlawful ordinances. Just writing that made me dizzy.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    These are very good ideas. I hope I am not the only one emailing these people.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Also, while they SAY they do not enforce the law, and it is understood to mean that you can ignore the sign and expect not to be arrested, in reality, the mere posting of the sign is a step in the enforcement of the unlawful ordinance. To truly not enforce the ordinance would mean to remove the signs, even if the unlawful ordinance remained on the books.

    Let's nevermind the cops for a minute. You should not be susceptible to a well-wishing neighboring citizen telling you, "Hey, there's no guns allowed here, Mister; see the sign?"

    And even if nobody says anything, you are still setting a bad example by flagrantly disobeying a posted ordinance. You would be the only person that would know it was an unenforceable unlawful ordinance. I know how I feel every time I see someone smoking at a front entrance to a public building and I have to walk through the cloud right next to the sign that says "No smoking within 50 feet of entrance." I actually don't mind the smoke so much as the rudeness of a person completely ignoring the public sign asking them not to do it.
    Last edited by MAC702; 11-30-2011 at 05:07 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Also, while they SAY they do not enforce the law, and it is understood to mean that you can ignore the sign and expect not to be arrested...
    I agree with everything you said, but I don't recall seeing any signs in Mill Creek parks that indicate firearms are prohibited. I will do a quick survey of several this week to confirm though.
    Hoplophobia is a social disease.

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    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
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    These are the 3 examples that I tend to put into letters and emails that I wright. I emphasize the money part of it the most, pointing out that a wrongful death could be in the millions of dollars.

    1...With the law on the books, you could still be asked to leave or arrested/cited under the code. Unlawful? You bet! But with the law on the books they can still arrest/cite you and "let the prosecutor sort it out" as a lot of cops like to do. This can lead to a civil suit for someones rights being violated, with tax payer money being shelled out in the end.

    2... Its a liability for the municipality (county/city). If someone who is not as well versed in the RCW's as people here are, there is the potential for them to see said signage, leave their firearm in the car and have something happen to them while they are there. They can then turn to the municipality and sue them because their code is unlawful, and had they been able to have their firearm there might have been a totally different outcome. Imagine the amount of money out of the tax payer coffers for a wrongful death suit over a preempted code that they not only knew about, but just didn't feel like changing it. All it would take is for the emails and letters they send in response to someone pointing out their code is unlawful, and it would show they acknowledge that they are in fact wrong but just don't want to bother changing it.

    3...The public opinion and example being set by the guy with the gun ignoring the sign... makes people that OC look like we just do what we want, and when we want and laws be damned. The problem is that they don't know that it is not enforceable, unlawful and preempted. So there ends up being one more person out there that is anti-oc because their perception is that we "carry guns, and do what we want."

    The list goes on from here... I am sure that we can come up with many reasons that a unlawful code is a problem... But I have found that using these three examples in letters gets their attention, 1 and 2 the most because of the amount of money that could potentially be paid out to someone.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geojohn View Post
    I agree with everything you said, but I don't recall seeing any signs in Mill Creek parks that indicate firearms are prohibited. I will do a quick survey of several this week to confirm though.
    My bad. I misremembered the OP and thought the ordinance was posted on a sign. Jeez, that just throws my whole last post out the window.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Jeez, that just throws my whole last post out the window.
    No, I thought it was right on and along the same lines of MadHatter66's good points. I should be able to check some parks tomorrow, one of which is across the street from a grade school...
    Hoplophobia is a social disease.

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    there are signs at parks in pierce and kitsap counties... how do we get those changed/removed, i know at the purdy spit, the sign says no firearms, fires, fireworks, but ive seen the latter 2 right in front of a deputy, standing watching and not caring. i carry there as i know that the firearms part is invalid.

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    I was able to check two parks earlier today.

    Cougar park, which is across the street from an elementary school, has no posted rules (that I could find) apart from no smoking signs.

    Heron park had posted rules, but did not include any firearm or other weapon prohibitions.
    Last edited by geojohn; 12-01-2011 at 02:49 PM.
    Hoplophobia is a social disease.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Denton View Post
    there are signs at parks in pierce and kitsap counties... how do we get those changed/removed, i know at the purdy spit, the sign says no firearms, fires, fireworks, but ive seen the latter 2 right in front of a deputy, standing watching and not caring. i carry there as i know that the firearms part is invalid.
    We can fix it ourselves. Consider it "Community Service". Locate the offending sign, apply Duct tape, admire your work. It will cost nothing to the local Gov and there are no mixed messages to the public. Below is the sign at my park. I frequent it with my dogs about two or three times a day. No worries. Note line seven.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Just hope those that use the parks realize that the punk heading towards the family may have a gun because he knows they won't!

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Shane Moloney City Attorney City of Mill Creek writes "Amending the ordinance in the future is a possibility"


    possibility? Is he for real?


    I believe they fully plan not to amend, hoping it will keep those not understanding state law from carrying in the parks, allowing more time for other’s to perceive and except it as the way it’s always been.


  24. #24
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    We can fix it ourselves. Consider it "Community Service". Locate the offending sign, apply Duct tape, admire your work. It will cost nothing to the local Gov and there are no mixed messages to the public. Below is the sign at my park. I frequent it with my dogs about two or three times a day. No worries. Note line seven.
    I think that's bad advice! It may not be as serious as carrying a firearm on Post Office property, but still may hold penalties if cities were to have code's against defacing, altering city property/signs without authorization.
    Last edited by jbone; 12-01-2011 at 04:43 PM.

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    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Denton View Post
    there are signs at parks in pierce and kitsap counties... how do we get those changed/removed, i know at the purdy spit, the sign says no firearms, fires, fireworks, but ive seen the latter 2 right in front of a deputy, standing watching and not caring. i carry there as i know that the firearms part is invalid.
    I am working on Kitsap county to get them to get the signs changed, I guess its a slow process ... The county repealed the county code about 2 years ago... So there is nothing for the deputies to enforce. That and, as long as I OC'd in Kitsap I have never had a problem from anyone... I dont go to Gig Harbor a whole lot...

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