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Thread: Tens of thousands in Wisconsin apply for concealed carry permit(Chicago Tribune)

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    Tens of thousands in Wisconsin apply for concealed carry permit(Chicago Tribune)

    10:30 AM CST, November 24, 2011
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    Wisconsin's concealed carry law isn't even a month old, but thousands of your friends and neighbors already have permission to pack heat and they're buying up the hardware to do it.

    Wisconsin became the 49th state to allow residents to carry concealed weapons this month. Questions about liability still linger, but gun sales have increased across the state and the state Justice Department has been deluged with so many permit requests it's already scrambling to keep up.

    "Long time coming," said Matt Slavik, 58, of Brookfield. He hand-filed applications for himself and his wife at the Justice Department's Capitol office on the morning of Nov. 1, the first day the new law was in effect. He said he got permit No. 20 in the mail two days later; his wife got No. 86 a day after him. "It's been wonderful, just to put the sidearm on as I start the day. I just keep it underneath my shirt and nobody knows. It's very comfortable."

    The National Rifle Association had pushed concealed carry legislation in Wisconsin for most of the last decade but kept running into former Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle's veto. Republicans took control of the Legislature and the governor's office last year, though, and made concealed carry one of their top priorities. Gov. Scott Walker finally signed a bill this summer.

    Under the law, state residents 21 or older who pass a background check and can prove they have taken firearms training can obtain a permit to carry concealed. Private property and business owners can choose whether to allow concealed weapons.

    In the four weeks since the law took effect, gun sales have jumped. The Justice Department's handgun hotline, a number gun sellers can call to initiate background checks on would-be gun buyers, had received 7,355 calls between Nov. 1 and Monday; the line has averaged about 6,550 calls per month throughout the year. The record for monthly calls is 7,859.

    Roger Wendling, owner of Monsoor's Sport Shop in La Crosse, estimates he's seen a 25 percent to 30 percent increase in handgun sales this month. Some of the more popular models have been .38-caliber Sig Sauers and Smith & Wesson .38-caliber revolvers, both small, snub-nosed weapons that are easy to hide.

    About 70 percent of the concealed carry clientele have been women, he said. They've leaned toward revolvers with laser sights and handbags with special compartments for hidden weapons, he said.

    Jim Clark, manager of Central Wisconsin Firearms in Wausau, estimated his handgun sales have increased at least 20 percent over the last month, with customers going with small models such .38-calibers and 9-millimeters.

    "Most of them, it just tends to be they want that added protection," he said.

    The state Justice Department, meanwhile, is wading through tens of thousands of permit requests. As of Tuesday, the agency had received 44,443 applications, approved 13,085 and issued 12,708 permits.

    The agency had rejected about 3,000 requests, said Brian O'Keefe, administrator of DOJ's Law Enforcement Services Division. The reasons have varied, from not being a Wisconsin applicant to missing basic application information like date of birth or failing to enclose the $50 application fee.

    More than 400 applicants tried to use an out-of-state concealed carry permit as proof of training but failed to include a form confirming their permit was valid, O'Keefe said. About 540 applicants didn't include sufficient training documentation, such as not including the name of their instructor, he added.

    Under the law, the Justice Department has 45 days to approve applications received before the end of November. After that, the agency has only 21 days. The law authorized $236,700 for 11 new hires, including 10 six-month employees whose stints will end in March, to handle applications. But O'Keefe said they've gotten so many requests they've had to pull other agency employees in to help. He said on any given day 30 to 35 people might be working on applications.

    Agency administrators say they need another $1.5 million to fill an additional 14.5 positions to handle applications. DOA passed the request on to the Legislature's finance committee on Wednesday. The money will go through unless a committee member raises concerns by Dec. 15.

    "Without (the additional positions) ... it is highly likely that the concealed carry program will be unable to keep up with present demand and be in noncompliance with (the law)," DOA budget analyst Peter Kirby wrote in a memo to agency secretary Mike Huebsch.

    Percolating beneath it all are questions about business owners' liability.

    The law grants immunity to property owners who allow concealed weapons in their establishments, but does not address the issue for property owners who bar them. That omission has given rise to a legal theory that owners who ban concealed weapons could be liable for injuries someone suffers in a shoot-out because the owners prevented the wounded from defending themselves.

    Democratic state Sens. Jon Erpenbach of Middleton and Tim Cullen of Janesville asked Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen for an opinon clarifying the liability issues earlier this month, calling the liability clause "counterintuitive and illogical." Van Hollen, a Republican, refused to comply. He said he's not legally bound to supply legislators with legal opinions.

    Gwen Bryan, owner of Louisianne's Restaurant in Middleton, said she's frustrated with the law and with Van Hollen. She said she wants to ban weapons in her restaurant, but wants the guarantee of legal immunity that comes with allowing them.

    "Van Hollen isn't living up to his duties as attorney general," she said. "Everybody's very confused about this law. Only a lawyer can figure out the way it reads, with the jargon ... It's unfair we're put in this situation. Walker says we're open for business. This is not looking out for business."

    Justice Department spokesman Dana Brueck said the agency can't give legal advice to private citizens. If the law truly is counterintuitive and illogical, as Erpenbach and Cullen say, it's up to the Legislature to address it, she added.

    To Slavik, at least, the issue is clear.

    He won't go to establishments that don't allow concealed carry. He said it's too inconvenient to disarm and leave his gun in the car before he goes inside. What's more, criminals will know which businesses don't allow weapons, making them targets for bad guys who want to rack up high body counts.

    "I've lived my 58 years obeying the laws, paying my taxes, loving my family, going to church," he said. "Now that I have a permit to carry a concealed weapon, I'm treated like a criminal. I'm not wanted in their businesses anymore. To me, it's an insult."

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...09,print.story
    Last edited by ccwinstructor; 11-25-2011 at 08:57 PM. Reason: to add the link

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    "The National Rifle Association had pushed concealed carry legislation in Wisconsin for most of the last decade but kept running into former Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle's veto. Republicans took control of the Legislature and the governor's office last year, though, and made concealed carry one of their top priorities. Gov. Scott Walker finally signed a bill this summer."


    A tip of the proverbial "hat" to the Republicans in Wisconsin who made concealed carry a priority, as well as to the Governor, Scott Walker!
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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    "Van Hollen isn't living up to his duties as attorney general," she said. "Everybody's very confused about this law. Only a lawyer can figure out the way it reads, with the jargon ... It's unfair we're put in this situation. Walker says we're open for business. This is not looking out for business."
    I'm not a lawyer and I understand it.
    Last edited by protias; 11-25-2011 at 10:07 PM.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Article was in the Walworth County Gazzette today. Was abbreviated. Did not have the end about liability. Makes sense Chicago paper would devote more space for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MilProGuy View Post
    A tip of the proverbial "hat" to the Republicans in Wisconsin who made concealed carry a priority, as well as to the Governor, Scott Walker!
    The article wasn't giving credit, it was assigning blame.

    This was a Chicago paper, after all.

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    Don't think he was giving credit to the paper, but to the Repubs of WI who finally handed back Constitutional rights to it's citizens. Now we have to get Illinois off it's high horse, and we're good to go.
    You can speak softy and carry a big stick, but I'll stick to my guns.

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    Regular Member Krusty's Avatar
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    Wisconsin's concealed carry law isn't even a month old, but thousands of your friends and neighbors already have permission to pack heat and they're buying up the hardware to do it.
    But the article from Chicago doesn't say anything about Illinois being the sole state to endorse criminal activity by refusing the law abiding a means to defend themselves.
    IF YOU WANT TO BURN OUR AMERICAN FLAG, PLEASE WRAP YOURSELF UP IN IT FIRST...

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    I'm not a lawyer and I understand it.
    The only reason that she doesn't understand it it, is because it does not do what she wants it to do. Typical liberal whining., nothing more, nothing less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutczak View Post
    The only reason that she doesn't understand it it, is because it does not do what she wants it to do. Typical liberal whining., nothing more, nothing less.
    Gto that right

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    If the immunity law is challenged it...

    ...had better be a practicing OCer, or licenses CCer. I don't think it should lend to the defense of those who have been adversaries of the law. As mentioned in the article, licensed carriers have the desire, and history of living lawful lives. "Do on to others as you would have them do onto you". I have lived with that, and now, so will the bad guys, I just have to be better, and faster. boar out.
    The purpose of fighting is to win,
    there is no victory in defense.
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    and skill is more important than either.
    The final weapon is the brain,
    all else is supplemental.

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    Regular Member thieltech's Avatar
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    U post a sign saying no guns ! .... well fine ..... then arm urself with a knife , tasser and pepper spray ? options i suppose ? not sure if pepper spray is going to do much in certain situations
    Last edited by thieltech; 11-26-2011 at 10:54 AM.

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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thieltech View Post
    U post a sign saying no guns ! .... well fine ..... then arm urself with a knife , tasser and pepper spray ? options i suppose ? not sure if pepper spray is going to do much in certain situations
    Interesting point; if the sign says, "No guns", we're ok with knife, electric weapons, or seasoning, but if it says, "No Weapons" or "No Concealed Carry", then we are totally disarmed except for our wits. Oops, I'm in trouble....
    Dave
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaurusToter View Post
    Don't think he was giving credit to the paper, but to the Repubs of WI who finally handed back Constitutional rights to it's citizens.
    Quite right.

    Thanks for the clarification.
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    Regular Member thieltech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    Interesting point; if the sign says, "No guns", we're ok with knife, electric weapons, or seasoning, but if it says, "No Weapons" or "No Concealed Carry", then we are totally disarmed except for our wits. Oops, I'm in trouble....
    From the way i been reading the state statues and the law in genral ... EVERY WORD COUNTS AND SHOULDNT BE OVER LOOKED ...... my thoughts any way .... even though its all new to me

    eeeh people armed with there wits can be more dangerous then a gun LOL
    Last edited by thieltech; 11-26-2011 at 11:46 AM.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiscollector View Post
    Story indicates the REJECTION rate at over 20%.

    That is a Huge number...some 3000.

    A huge number like that would indicate the application process is broken or the people applying are stupid.

    I would say the process is very flawed.
    Just like I had to fill out the extra form I had no idea I had to fill out affirming I was not prohibited and haven't had my UT permit revoked? How hard is it to look at the copied permit to see if it is still valid?
    Last edited by protias; 11-26-2011 at 07:31 PM.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member PQ36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccwinstructor View Post
    10:30 AM CST, November 24, 2011
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    Percolating beneath it all are questions about business owners' liability.
    Questions. Like why in the world would anyone post a thug magnet sign in the first place? That kinda question.


    The law grants immunity to property owners who allow concealed weapons in their establishments, but does not address the issue for property owners who bar them. That omission has given rise to a legal theory that owners who ban concealed weapons could be liable for injuries someone suffers in a shoot-out because the owners prevented the wounded from defending themselves.
    .... a shoot-out? Like Suzanna Gratia-Hupp being defenseless when a Killeen, Tx psychopath goes on a rampage at Luby's cafeteria? Like that? Like when Suzanna could have been instrumental in turning the tide of that psychopathic demon, if only she had her handgun with her, instead of in the car, as TX "law" required? Like this kind of defending oneself? Hmmmm


    Democratic state Sens. Jon Erpenbach of Middleton and Tim Cullen of Janesville asked Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen for an opinon clarifying the liability issues earlier this month, calling the liability clause "counterintuitive and illogical." Van Hollen, a Republican, refused to comply. He said he's not legally bound to supply legislators with legal opinions.
    Counterintuitive? Illogical? Only if you exalt death over life.

    Gwen Bryan, owner of Louisianne's Restaurant in Middleton, said she's frustrated with the law and with Van Hollen. She said she wants to ban weapons in her restaurant, but wants the guarantee of legal immunity that comes with allowing them.
    Gwen also wants her cake and to eat it too. As well as great profits with zero risk. As well as....

    "Van Hollen isn't living up to his duties as attorney general," she said. "Everybody's very confused about this law. Only a lawyer can figure out the way it reads, with the jargon ... It's unfair we're put in this situation. Walker says we're open for business. This is not looking out for business."
    ....open for business. Gwen, perhaps going into the sporting goods / firearms business would attract more customers, and make you more "open for business". I hear the market for self defense tools is just bangin'.

    Just a few random thoughts. But who am I?

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