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Thread: Questions for a beginner

  1. #1
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    Questions for a beginner

    Well, I've never owned a gun before, hell I've never even touched one. I've always had the feeling that I should have one though, it makes perfect sense to me to carry a gun, and open carrying makes a lot more sense as the gun being in plain sight acts as a deterrent.

    So, fact time.
    - I'm 18 years old (Will have someone buy me my pistol as I'm aware federal law states you must be 21 to buy one)
    - I'm a Green Card holder
    - I live in Livonia, mi

    The main question I have is,
    At 18 years old, can I open carry? From what I understand I can open carry while under the age of 21 but above the age of 18, I just can't get a concealed weapons permit, am I correct? I'm also under the impression that open carrying requires no permit of any sort, besides the obvious fact that I have to own the gun.


    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    --Moderator moved this to Michigan forum--
    Last edited by jj45410; 11-28-2011 at 09:16 AM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member waterfowl woody's Avatar
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    sounds like you are jumping the "gun" on arming yourself. never even held one? well then jumping quickly to carrying one is a little irresponsible and arming yourself is the biggest responsibility you will ever take on. First things first and carrying a gun is not first in your case. get educated on the safe practice of firearms handling. get training and then train repeatedly. after you do that then think about carrying a firearm. that my advice. oops almost left out get educated about the laws as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jj45410 View Post
    Well, I've never owned a gun before, hell I've never even touched one. I've always had the feeling that I should have one though, it makes perfect sense to me to carry a gun, and open carrying makes a lot more sense as the gun being in plain sight acts as a deterrent.

    So, fact time.
    - I'm 18 years old (Will have someone buy me my pistol as I'm aware federal law states you must be 21 to buy one)
    - I'm a Green Card holder
    - I live in Livonia, mi
    The main question I have is,
    At 18 years old, can I open carry? From what I understand I can open carry while under the age of 21 but above the age of 18, I just can't get a concealed weapons permit, am I correct? I'm also under the impression that open carrying requires no permit of any sort, besides the obvious fact that I have to own the gun.


    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
    If you are serious, and take the Post #2 response as good advice, post your question in the MI state forum here. They can help you with matters of MI law.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    I would suggest you start by learning MI state law. Go to the MI board and ask questions, lots of questions.

    One of the questions you want to ask is where (what range) can you go in your area, that rents firearms and gives instruction.

    Before you purchase anything you need to try several out, learn how they work, and how to handle them safely...then you will be ready to make a decision on what you want to put your hard earned money out for and actually purchase for your own use.

    Guns are not only dangerous if misused, they are expensive.

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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    Do you have a drivers license? You needed training to drive a car right? Then you studied different cars before you got one. Same principle, a lot of responsibility involved in guiding a two ton car or handling a gun. Like the others said, go to the MI board, and check out the opencarry.org main site for the maps.
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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO!! Stick around and you will learn a lot!!! This site is a valuable resource if you are willing to read and learn. Everything written above is sound advice. My recommendation is to find someone experienced with firearms to go shooting with. This way you will at least have a very basic knowledge of how they operate. If you like it, take a class and go from there.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Another welcome to OCDO. Being a green card holder and being interested in the right to keep and bear arms is, in many ways, better than being a natural-born citizen wth that interest. One day you might want to put down on paper why you developed this interest.

    There are a few hoops you will need to jump through before you can OC in Michigan. As everybody else has suggested, go to the Michigan section http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/fo...p?106-Michigan and do some basic reading, and then ask some questions.

    At 18 you can purchase your own handgun. A FFL is not allowed to sell one to you until you are 21, and ammunition dealers are not allowed to sell handgun ammo to persons under 21. Getting someone to buy a handgun for you may expose them and the FFL they buy from to some violations of the law unless you all follow the rules on "gifting" a gun to someone, as opposed to setting up a straw purchase. It's not a difficult process to do perfectly legally. There are many rifles that shoot the same caliber of ammo as some handguns use {nudge, wink} but it's up to you to decide if you want to be honest and truthful or not.

    As golddigger14s mentioned, getting training is never a bad idea. You may need to bring someone over 21 along with you if you are thinking about renting handguns before you invest in selecting your first one. Ranges can set up rules even if the law does not require them to rent only to 21+. Even after you get your "basic" training you will not be done. Regular practice and training to make sure you are not practicing all the wrong moves will just make you a better shooter no matter what type of shooting you do.

    Glad to have you around.

    stay safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Another welcome to OCDO. Being a green card holder and being interested in the right to keep and bear arms is, in many ways, better than being a natural-born citizen wth that interest. One day you might want to put down on paper why you developed this interest.

    There are a few hoops you will need to jump through before you can OC in Michigan. As everybody else has suggested, go to the Michigan section http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/fo...p?106-Michigan and do some basic reading, and then ask some questions.

    At 18 you can purchase your own handgun. A FFL is not allowed to sell one to you until you are 21, and ammunition dealers are not allowed to sell handgun ammo to persons under 21. Getting someone to buy a handgun for you may expose them and the FFL they buy from to some violations of the law unless you all follow the rules on "gifting" a gun to someone, as opposed to setting up a straw purchase. It's not a difficult process to do perfectly legally. There are many rifles that shoot the same caliber of ammo as some handguns use {nudge, wink} but it's up to you to decide if you want to be honest and truthful or not.

    As golddigger14s mentioned, getting training is never a bad idea. You may need to bring someone over 21 along with you if you are thinking about renting handguns before you invest in selecting your first one. Ranges can set up rules even if the law does not require them to rent only to 21+. Even after you get your "basic" training you will not be done. Regular practice and training to make sure you are not practicing all the wrong moves will just make you a better shooter no matter what type of shooting you do.

    Glad to have you around.

    stay safe.


    Private party sales should not trigger any of that, though.




    and the spam in #8 has been reported
    Last edited by wrightme; 12-16-2011 at 06:00 PM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Arming and OCing

    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    If you are serious, and take the Post #2 response as good advice, post your question in the MI state forum here. They can help you with matters of MI law.
    The second and third post are correct. I have been CCing for 13 years and OCing for 12. The best thing you can do is KNOW YOUR LAWS of the state your in and the states you Visit. I get questions all the time by folks that see me OC? "You know your not allowed to OC in this State" I reply with the law for GA and then I show it to them, because I keep it printe out and folded in my wallet. THIS IS JUST ONE OF MANY i GET ASKED.

    DO YOURSELF JUSTICE AND KNOW THEM BEFORE YOU ARM YOURSELF.

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    Chris

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO cmr287 - 12 years OCing? What took you so long to find your way here.

    With regard to the OP and his questions, its been over a month and he hasn't been back - drive by?
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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jj45410 View Post
    Well, I've never owned a gun before, hell I've never even touched one. I've always had the feeling that I should have one though, it makes perfect sense to me to carry a gun, and open carrying makes a lot more sense as the gun being in plain sight acts as a deterrent.

    So, fact time.
    - I'm 18 years old (Will have someone buy me my pistol as I'm aware federal law states you must be 21 to buy one)
    - I'm a Green Card holder
    - I live in Livonia, mi

    The main question I have is,
    At 18 years old, can I open carry? From what I understand I can open carry while under the age of 21 but above the age of 18, I just can't get a concealed weapons permit, am I correct? I'm also under the impression that open carrying requires no permit of any sort, besides the obvious fact that I have to own the gun.


    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    --Moderator moved this to Michigan forum--
    Ok I first suggest you read the stickies and know the laws like the back of your hand before OCing. If you have any questions after reading them just ask. To get a pistol it must be through a private purchase and not an FFL. Someone 21 or old cannot buy a gun for you then sell it to you that is a straw purchase. They could buy it as a present for you or you could get one from someone looking to sell a pistol. Check out Michigan Gun Owners firearms for sale list when its back online and in working order.

    I am 19 and started OCing when I just turned 18. It's a pain in the butt not having a CPL but at least you have some option to carry. Make sure you do not have the gun on the premises of any place that has any liquor license, or really any place listed under 750.234d, which would include Meijers. Buy a good holster and voice recorder. Other than that read the stickies and if you have any questions just ask. Feel free to message me if you have any questions you don't feel comfortable asking on here. If I'm not 100% sure and/or cannot find a law reference to what you're asking it can be asked on the forum.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  12. #12
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Not True. Its a straw purchase only if the person who eventually gets the gun is not otherwise allowed to own a firearm. Example: My dad buys a gun for me as a present I am 18 and able to own firearms. Not a straw purchase.

    "You can't buy it for someone who can't own it." Direct quote from the ATF office in detroit.
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    Not True. Its a straw purchase only if the person who eventually gets the gun is not otherwise allowed to own a firearm. Example: My dad buys a gun for me as a present I am 18 and able to own firearms. Not a straw purchase.

    "You can't buy it for someone who can't own it." Direct quote from the ATF office in detroit.
    The purchase can be made as a "gift" but from what I can tell, if the purchase is made for somebody else, even if they can legally own it it's a straw purchase.

    http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms...episode-4.html

    Not always. A straw purchase is a purchase in which the actual purchaser uses someone else — a.k.a. the “straw person” to make the purchase and complete the paperwork. Generally straw purchasers are utilized because the actual purchaser is not eligible to conduct a transaction because they’re in one or more legally prohibited categories, such as being addicted to a controlled substance, being a felon, being underage, and so on.

    However, a straw purchase occurs even when the actual purchaser is not a prohibited person. The crime committed is knowingly making a false statement on the Form 4473 indicating that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser, when this is not the case.

    Felons, who are also prohibited from conducting a firearms transaction, will sometimes attempt to obtain guns this way, because they wouldn’t pass the NICS background check and could not truthfully fill out Form 4473. If, however, Bobby was with his father or other legal guardian, and his father was legally eligible to obtain the handgun as a gift for Bobby, his father would fill out Form 4473, undergo the NICS check, and assume legal responsibility for the transaction and the gun. Bobby’s father could truthfully complete the Form 4473 to indicate that he is the actual purchaser because he would take title to the weapon and then transfer the firearm to Bobby as a gift.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  14. #14
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    I saw that also, and I had some questions so I called the ATF office downtown and the response I got was what I posted. Not saying your wrong.
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

    Michigan Concealed Pistol Instructor. Cost 80.00 With advanced techniques included free. PM for more information!

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    I saw that also, and I had some questions so I called the ATF office downtown and the response I got was what I posted. Not saying your wrong.
    In my industry I have to deal with the FAA. The bad thing about these regulatory agencies is that you are bound by the interpretation of the agents that handle your area. So the FAA agent that deals with our main facility in another state may have a different interpretation than the one that deals with the facility in MI. So while we are the same company and have the same policies each location may have to do things slightly different to comply with how their agent thinks it should be done.

    I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the ATF didn't operate the same way.

    Bronson
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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    I saw that also, and I had some questions so I called the ATF office downtown and the response I got was what I posted. Not saying your wrong.
    IMHO the person who gave you that legal advice was incorrect.

    http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf Go to page 165

    snip
    An example of an illegal straw pur- chase is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out Form 4473, he violates the law by falsely stating that he is the actual buyer of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates the law because he has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of false statements on the form.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  17. #17
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    There is an exception for a "bonafide gift".
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  18. #18
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    There is an exception for a "bonafide gift".
    Same link as above.
    Where a person purchases a firearm with the intent of making a gift of the firearm to another person, the person making the purchase is indeed the true purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in these instances. In the above exam- ple, if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could lawfully have completed Form 4473. The use of gift certificates would also not fall within the category of straw pur- chases. The person redeeming the gift certificate would be the actual purchaser of the firearm and would be properly reflected as such in the dealer's records.
    Last edited by xmanhockey7; 12-28-2011 at 12:56 AM.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  19. #19
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Someone 21 or old cannot buy a gun for you then sell it to you that is a straw purchase.
    Not true. As long as all parties to transactions are following federal and state laws governing commercial and private firearms transactions, there's no law that says a legal private firearm transaction can't follow a legal commercial firearm transaction. A person aged at least 21 may make a legal purchase from an FFL, then afterward make a legal sale to anyone he wishes to. As long as both distinct transaction individually are legal. The key word is LEGAL. Show me the law that says you can't legally buy a firearm if you have the intention of legally selling it to someone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7
    They could buy it as a present for you or you could get one from someone looking to sell a pistol.
    Yep, those too, as long as all laws are being obeyed.

    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    Not True. Its a straw purchase only if the person who eventually gets the gun is not otherwise allowed to own a firearm.
    Not true. A "straw man" (to be correct) gun purchase is when a legal buyer makes a legal buy in order to subsequently illegally give or sell to anyone else. Thus, it's also possible that the person who eventually gets a gun is allowed to own firearms, but they obtained it (for whatever "reason") by a "straw man" purchase. For example, you have a CPL and your buddy does not. He is able to legally own firearms. He says to you, "Hey man, I really want that gun in that gun store and I want it, like, NOW, because it's at a great price and I don't want someone snapping it up. Would you please go buy it NOW with your CPL, give it to me, and we'll get all the money and legal paperwork settled, like, next week?" You go in and buy the gun, with the intention of going to his house and handing it to him for keeps. BAM! You've just completed a straw man purchase, and the person eventually getting the gun IS allowed to own firearms.

    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45
    Example: My dad buys a gun for me as a present I am 18 and able to own firearms. Not a straw purchase.
    Not true. It is a straw man purchase if the transfer to you is not legal (even though you may legally own a firearm) and the circumvention of legal requirements was known or intended.

    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45
    "You can't buy it for someone who can't own it." Direct quote from the ATF office in detroit.
    They're wrong too. You can't buy it then illegally transfer it. Simple as that.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Thank you for the clarification, I put more stock in your advice than the ATF. When I asked them if I could buy a gun then transfer it to my dad they said no problem as long as all laws were followed. Buy buying the gun with the intent of my dad being the intended owner they said no problem so long as he was legal to own the gun. I asked what if he saw a gun at a great price and gave me the money to buy it. I did then held it until he got his permit they said again no problem. All laws followed. Since the actual transfer did not happen until the transfer by paperwork was complete.
    Last edited by NHCGRPR45; 12-28-2011 at 05:55 PM.
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Dan, I'm going to assume at some point in time you have purchased a firearm. If you purchase a firearm for someone else you are making a false statement on Form 4473 where you must indicate whether you are the actual transferee or buyer of the firearm.

    This is my understanding of how it works. My source is the ATF. I looked up the gun control act of 1968 and could not find the actual word "straw purchase" and I wasn't about to read the entire thing just to find where it talks about those illegal purchases.

    Example: I am under 21 so I cannot purchase a handgun. I go up to my neighbor, give me $600 and tell me I would like him to buy me a Glock 23. If he goes to a gun store and makes that purchase it is a straw purchase. He has lied on Form 4473 as to whether he is the actual buyer.

    Example: My friend who is the same age as me (19) asks me to purchase a shotgun for him from an FFL. If he gives me money for it and I go make the purchase I have made a false statement on Form 4473.

    Example: In both of the above examples the person purchasing the firearm is buying it as a gift to the person who will be receiving the firearm.

    Example: I purchase a shotgun for myself. After having it for a week I'm experiencing buyers remorse and decide I want to sell it. I sell it to my 19 year old friend. No problems there.

    So if you are purchasing the firearm for you then decide you want to sell it, you're good. But if you're purchasing for someone else, and it's not as a gift, you have lied on Form 4473 which is a crime.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  22. #22
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Dan, I'm going to assume at some point in time you have purchased a firearm. If you purchase a firearm for someone else you are making a false statement on Form 4473 where you must indicate whether you are the actual transferee or buyer of the firearm.

    This is my understanding of how it works. My source is the ATF. I looked up the gun control act of 1968 and could not find the actual word "straw purchase" and I wasn't about to read the entire thing just to find where it talks about those illegal purchases.

    Example: I am under 21 so I cannot purchase a handgun. I go up to my neighbor, give me $600 and tell me I would like him to buy me a Glock 23. If he goes to a gun store and makes that purchase it is a straw purchase. He has lied on Form 4473 as to whether he is the actual buyer.

    Example: My friend who is the same age as me (19) asks me to purchase a shotgun for him from an FFL. If he gives me money for it and I go make the purchase I have made a false statement on Form 4473.

    Example: In both of the above examples the person purchasing the firearm is buying it as a gift to the person who will be receiving the firearm.

    Example: I purchase a shotgun for myself. After having it for a week I'm experiencing buyers remorse and decide I want to sell it. I sell it to my 19 year old friend. No problems there.

    So if you are purchasing the firearm for you then decide you want to sell it, you're good. But if you're purchasing for someone else, and it's not as a gift, you have lied on Form 4473 which is a crime.
    Semantics.
    Example: My friend who is the same age as me (19) asks me to purchase a shotgun for him from an FFL. If he gives me money for it and I go make the purchase I have made a false statement on Form 4473.

    In the above example you are in fact having the gun legally transferred tou you first. Because if anyone has ever transferred a gun after buying it wouldn't that then constitute a straw purchase??

    Also I don't buy into the gift clause. And if I did then all I would need to do ever is say I gave my friend 10 dollar gift then he gave me the rest of the cash to get him a gun.
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

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  23. #23
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Dan, I'm going to assume at some point in time you have purchased a firearm. If you purchase a firearm for someone else you are making a false statement on Form 4473 where you must indicate whether you are the actual transferee or buyer of the firearm.
    Yes, I'm very familiar with that form. The form says you must be the "actual transferee/buyer". The form instructions clarify that by saying you must be acquiring "for yourself" or "as a gift" to someone else. The form instructions further clarify just what is meant by those by illustrating that it is neither "for yourself" nor "as a gift" if both of two conditions are met:
    1) A third party asks you to buy the firearm for them.
    AND
    2) The third party gives you the money to buy the firearm.

    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7
    Example: I am under 21 so I cannot purchase a handgun. I go up to my neighbor, give me $600 and tell me I would like him to buy me a Glock 23. If he goes to a gun store and makes that purchase it is a straw purchase. He has lied on Form 4473 as to whether he is the actual buyer.
    Correct. Both of the two conditions above are met. It's a straw man purchase.

    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7
    Example: My friend who is the same age as me (19) asks me to purchase a shotgun for him from an FFL. If he gives me money for it and I go make the purchase I have made a false statement on Form 4473.
    Correct. Both of the two conditions above are met. It's a straw man purchase.

    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7
    Example: In both of the above examples the person purchasing the firearm is buying it as a gift to the person who will be receiving the firearm.
    Correct. One or both of the two conditions are NOT met. It's a legal purchase.

    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7
    Example: I purchase a shotgun for myself. After having it for a week I'm experiencing buyers remorse and decide I want to sell it. I sell it to my 19 year old friend. No problems there.
    Correct. One or both of the two conditions on the initial purchase are NOT met. The initial purchase was a legal purchase.

    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7
    So if you are purchasing the firearm for you then decide you want to sell it, you're good. But if you're purchasing for someone else, and it's not as a gift, you have lied on Form 4473 which is a crime.
    Here is where you are not entirely correct, and it is because, unlike your previous examples, you lack defining specifics which dictate whether or not both of the two conditions are met.
    Are you buying at the request of, or on behalf of, a third party?
    AND
    Did the third party give you the money to buy the firearm?

    If someone asks you to buy for them AND gives you the money to buy, you are not the actual transferee/buyer.

    Otherwise, you are the actual transferee/buyer. To clarify:

    If someone asks you to buy a firearm for them but does not give you the money to buy, whether or not the word "gift" was used between you, it is legally and practically a gift you are buying, at the point and time of purchase. You have received no remuneration to acquire an object you intend to give to someone else. That is one definition of "buying a gift". You ARE the actual transferee/buyer, at the point and time of purchase.

    If someone gives you money to buy a firearm, without any request or implication you would actually be buying for them, that is legally and practically a gift of money to you to purchase a firearm for yourself to use, enjoy, dispose of, etc. as you wish. Again, you ARE the actual transferee/buyer, at the point and time of purchase.

    Thus, as you see, the two prongs of the test must be met TOGETHER in order to say you are NOT the actual transferee/buyer. Again, those two prongs are specifically on the form and how the form illustrates the determination of "actual transferee/buyer". And we are going with the language on the form, not anyone else's language or interpretations.
    Last edited by DanM; 12-29-2011 at 10:52 AM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  24. #24
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    If you legally buy the firearm of your own money, then sell it to someone under the age of 21 who obtains a purchase permit. With that intent in mind, because you bought it with your own money, is that a legal purchase from an FFL?
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

  25. #25
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yance View Post
    If you legally buy the firearm of your own money, then sell it to someone under the age of 21 who obtains a purchase permit. With that intent in mind, because you bought it with your own money, is that a legal purchase from an FFL?
    The ATF form merely says that you have to correctly answer that you are the "actual transferee/buyer" (question 11.a. on the form).

    And the form illustrates in its instructions that you are not the "actual transferee/buyer" if two criteria exist:
    1) You are buying a firearm for a third party.
    AND
    2) The third party gives you the money to buy the firearm.

    Otherwise, you may correctly answer that you are the "actual transferee/buyer".

    There is no law and nothing on the form that prohibits legally buying a firearm with your own money (or even someone else's money, as long as they are not having you buy it for them) and taking personal possession of it, then legally selling or gifting it to someone else.

    And there is nothing in the law or the form which sets a minimum time period between the two transactions.

    And there is nothing in the law or the form which prohibits you from having an intent when you buy a firearm legally to know that later you will legally sell it to someone else. Hell, I've bought one or two of my guns specifically with the intent to legally sell them to my children when they come of age, to give them a head start on being able to provide for their defense. According to the form, as long as my children didn't give me the money to buy those guns, I'm ok to call myself the "actual transferee/buyer".
    Last edited by DanM; 12-29-2011 at 02:09 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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