Questions for a beginner

Well, I've never owned a gun before, hell I've never even touched one. I've always had the feeling that I should have one though, it makes perfect sense to me to carry a gun, and open carrying makes a lot more sense as the gun being in plain sight acts as a deterrent.

So, fact time.
- I'm 18 years old (Will have someone buy me my pistol as I'm aware federal law states you must be 21 to buy one)
- I'm a Green Card holder
- I live in Livonia, mi

The main question I have is,
At 18 years old, can I open carry? From what I understand I can open carry while under the age of 21 but above the age of 18, I just can't get a concealed weapons permit, am I correct? I'm also under the impression that open carrying requires no permit of any sort, besides the obvious fact that I have to own the gun.


Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

--Moderator moved this to Michigan forum--

sounds like you are jumping the "gun" on arming yourself. never even held one? well then jumping quickly to carrying one is a little irresponsible and arming yourself is the biggest responsibility you will ever take on. First things first and carrying a gun is not first in your case. get educated on the safe practice of firearms handling. get training and then train repeatedly. after you do that then think about carrying a firearm. that my advice. oops almost left out get educated about the laws as well.

jj45410 said:

Well, I've never owned a gun before, hell I've never even touched one. I've always had the feeling that I should have one though, it makes perfect sense to me to carry a gun, and open carrying makes a lot more sense as the gun being in plain sight acts as a deterrent.

So, fact time.
- I'm 18 years old (Will have someone buy me my pistol as I'm aware federal law states you must be 21 to buy one)
- I'm a Green Card holder
- I live in Livonia, mi
The main question I have is,
At 18 years old, can I open carry? From what I understand I can open carry while under the age of 21 but above the age of 18, I just can't get a concealed weapons permit, am I correct? I'm also under the impression that open carrying requires no permit of any sort, besides the obvious fact that I have to own the gun.


Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

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If you are serious, and take the Post #2 response as good advice, post your question in the MI state forum here. They can help you with matters of MI law.

I would suggest you start by learning MI state law. Go to the MI board and ask questions, lots of questions.

One of the questions you want to ask is where (what range) can you go in your area, that rents firearms and gives instruction.

Before you purchase anything you need to try several out, learn how they work, and how to handle them safely...then you will be ready to make a decision on what you want to put your hard earned money out for and actually purchase for your own use.

Guns are not only dangerous if misused, they are expensive.

Do you have a drivers license? You needed training to drive a car right? Then you studied different cars before you got one. Same principle, a lot of responsibility involved in guiding a two ton car or handling a gun. Like the others said, go to the MI board, and check out the opencarry.org main site for the maps.

Welcome to OCDO!! Stick around and you will learn a lot!!! This site is a valuable resource if you are willing to read and learn. Everything written above is sound advice. My recommendation is to find someone experienced with firearms to go shooting with. This way you will at least have a very basic knowledge of how they operate. If you like it, take a class and go from there.

Another welcome to OCDO. Being a green card holder and being interested in the right to keep and bear arms is, in many ways, better than being a natural-born citizen wth that interest. One day you might want to put down on paper why you developed this interest.

There are a few hoops you will need to jump through before you can OC in Michigan. As everybody else has suggested, go to the Michigan section http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?106-Michigan and do some basic reading, and then ask some questions.

At 18 you can purchase your own handgun. A FFL is not allowed to sell one to you until you are 21, and ammunition dealers are not allowed to sell handgun ammo to persons under 21. Getting someone to buy a handgun for you may expose them and the FFL they buy from to some violations of the law unless you all follow the rules on "gifting" a gun to someone, as opposed to setting up a straw purchase. It's not a difficult process to do perfectly legally. There are many rifles that shoot the same caliber of ammo as some handguns use {nudge, wink} but it's up to you to decide if you want to be honest and truthful or not.

As golddigger14s mentioned, getting training is never a bad idea. You may need to bring someone over 21 along with you if you are thinking about renting handguns before you invest in selecting your first one. Ranges can set up rules even if the law does not require them to rent only to 21+. Even after you get your "basic" training you will not be done. Regular practice and training to make sure you are not practicing all the wrong moves will just make you a better shooter no matter what type of shooting you do.

Glad to have you around.

stay safe.

skidmark said:

Another welcome to OCDO. Being a green card holder and being interested in the right to keep and bear arms is, in many ways, better than being a natural-born citizen wth that interest. One day you might want to put down on paper why you developed this interest.

There are a few hoops you will need to jump through before you can OC in Michigan. As everybody else has suggested, go to the Michigan section http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?106-Michigan and do some basic reading, and then ask some questions.

At 18 you can purchase your own handgun. A FFL is not allowed to sell one to you until you are 21, and ammunition dealers are not allowed to sell handgun ammo to persons under 21. Getting someone to buy a handgun for you may expose them and the FFL they buy from to some violations of the law unless you all follow the rules on "gifting" a gun to someone, as opposed to setting up a straw purchase. It's not a difficult process to do perfectly legally. There are many rifles that shoot the same caliber of ammo as some handguns use {nudge, wink} but it's up to you to decide if you want to be honest and truthful or not.

As golddigger14s mentioned, getting training is never a bad idea. You may need to bring someone over 21 along with you if you are thinking about renting handguns before you invest in selecting your first one. Ranges can set up rules even if the law does not require them to rent only to 21+. Even after you get your "basic" training you will not be done. Regular practice and training to make sure you are not practicing all the wrong moves will just make you a better shooter no matter what type of shooting you do.

Glad to have you around.

stay safe.

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Private party sales should not trigger any of that, though.




and the spam in #8 has been reported

Arming and OCing

wrightme said:

If you are serious, and take the Post #2 response as good advice, post your question in the MI state forum here. They can help you with matters of MI law.

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The second and third post are correct. I have been CCing for 13 years and OCing for 12. The best thing you can do is KNOW YOUR LAWS of the state your in and the states you Visit. I get questions all the time by folks that see me OC? "You know your not allowed to OC in this State" I reply with the law for GA and then I show it to them, because I keep it printe out and folded in my wallet. THIS IS JUST ONE OF MANY i GET ASKED.

DO YOURSELF JUSTICE AND KNOW THEM BEFORE YOU ARM YOURSELF.

V/R
Chris

Welcome to OCDO cmr287 - 12 years OCing? What took you so long to find your way here.

With regard to the OP and his questions, its been over a month and he hasn't been back - drive by?

jj45410 said:

Well, I've never owned a gun before, hell I've never even touched one. I've always had the feeling that I should have one though, it makes perfect sense to me to carry a gun, and open carrying makes a lot more sense as the gun being in plain sight acts as a deterrent.

So, fact time.
- I'm 18 years old (Will have someone buy me my pistol as I'm aware federal law states you must be 21 to buy one)
- I'm a Green Card holder
- I live in Livonia, mi

The main question I have is,
At 18 years old, can I open carry? From what I understand I can open carry while under the age of 21 but above the age of 18, I just can't get a concealed weapons permit, am I correct? I'm also under the impression that open carrying requires no permit of any sort, besides the obvious fact that I have to own the gun.


Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

--Moderator moved this to Michigan forum--

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Ok I first suggest you read the stickies and know the laws like the back of your hand before OCing. If you have any questions after reading them just ask. To get a pistol it must be through a private purchase and not an FFL. Someone 21 or old cannot buy a gun for you then sell it to you that is a straw purchase. They could buy it as a present for you or you could get one from someone looking to sell a pistol. Check out Michigan Gun Owners firearms for sale list when its back online and in working order.

I am 19 and started OCing when I just turned 18. It's a pain in the butt not having a CPL but at least you have some option to carry. Make sure you do not have the gun on the premises of any place that has any liquor license, or really any place listed under 750.234d, which would include Meijers. Buy a good holster and voice recorder. Other than that read the stickies and if you have any questions just ask. Feel free to message me if you have any questions you don't feel comfortable asking on here. If I'm not 100% sure and/or cannot find a law reference to what you're asking it can be asked on the forum.

Not True. Its a straw purchase only if the person who eventually gets the gun is not otherwise allowed to own a firearm. Example: My dad buys a gun for me as a present I am 18 and able to own firearms. Not a straw purchase.

"You can't buy it for someone who can't own it." Direct quote from the ATF office in detroit.

NHCGRPR45 said:

Not True. Its a straw purchase only if the person who eventually gets the gun is not otherwise allowed to own a firearm. Example: My dad buys a gun for me as a present I am 18 and able to own firearms. Not a straw purchase.

"You can't buy it for someone who can't own it." Direct quote from the ATF office in detroit.

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The purchase can be made as a "gift" but from what I can tell, if the purchase is made for somebody else, even if they can legally own it it's a straw purchase.

http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms/ffl-learning-theater/episode-4.html

Not always. A straw purchase is a purchase in which the actual purchaser uses someone else — a.k.a. the “straw person” to make the purchase and complete the paperwork. Generally straw purchasers are utilized because the actual purchaser is not eligible to conduct a transaction because they’re in one or more legally prohibited categories, such as being addicted to a controlled substance, being a felon, being underage, and so on.

However, a straw purchase occurs even when the actual purchaser is not a prohibited person. The crime committed is knowingly making a false statement on the Form 4473 indicating that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser, when this is not the case.

Felons, who are also prohibited from conducting a firearms transaction, will sometimes attempt to obtain guns this way, because they wouldn’t pass the NICS background check and could not truthfully fill out Form 4473. If, however, Bobby was with his father or other legal guardian, and his father was legally eligible to obtain the handgun as a gift for Bobby, his father would fill out Form 4473, undergo the NICS check, and assume legal responsibility for the transaction and the gun. Bobby’s father could truthfully complete the Form 4473 to indicate that he is the actual purchaser because he would take title to the weapon and then transfer the firearm to Bobby as a gift.

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I saw that also, and I had some questions so I called the ATF office downtown and the response I got was what I posted. Not saying your wrong.

NHCGRPR45 said:

I saw that also, and I had some questions so I called the ATF office downtown and the response I got was what I posted. Not saying your wrong.

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In my industry I have to deal with the FAA. The bad thing about these regulatory agencies is that you are bound by the interpretation of the agents that handle your area. So the FAA agent that deals with our main facility in another state may have a different interpretation than the one that deals with the facility in MI. So while we are the same company and have the same policies each location may have to do things slightly different to comply with how their agent thinks it should be done.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the ATF didn't operate the same way.

Bronson

NHCGRPR45 said:

I saw that also, and I had some questions so I called the ATF office downtown and the response I got was what I posted. Not saying your wrong.

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IMHO the person who gave you that legal advice was incorrect.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf Go to page 165

snip

An example of an illegal straw pur- chase is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out Form 4473, he violates the law by falsely stating that he is the actual buyer of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates the law because he has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of false statements on the form.

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There is an exception for a "bonafide gift".

TheQ said:

There is an exception for a "bonafide gift".

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Same link as above.

Where a person purchases a firearm with the intent of making a gift of the firearm to another person, the person making the purchase is indeed the true purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in these instances. In the above exam- ple, if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could lawfully have completed Form 4473. The use of gift certificates would also not fall within the category of straw pur- chases. The person redeeming the gift certificate would be the actual purchaser of the firearm and would be properly reflected as such in the dealer's records.

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xmanhockey7 said:

Someone 21 or old cannot buy a gun for you then sell it to you that is a straw purchase.

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Not true. As long as all parties to transactions are following federal and state laws governing commercial and private firearms transactions, there's no law that says a legal private firearm transaction can't follow a legal commercial firearm transaction. A person aged at least 21 may make a legal purchase from an FFL, then afterward make a legal sale to anyone he wishes to. As long as both distinct transaction individually are legal. The key word is LEGAL. Show me the law that says you can't legally buy a firearm if you have the intention of legally selling it to someone else.

xmanhockey7 said:

They could buy it as a present for you or you could get one from someone looking to sell a pistol.

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Yep, those too, as long as all laws are being obeyed.

NHCGRPR45 said:

Not True. Its a straw purchase only if the person who eventually gets the gun is not otherwise allowed to own a firearm.

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Not true. A "straw man" (to be correct) gun purchase is when a legal buyer makes a legal buy in order to subsequently illegally give or sell to anyone else. Thus, it's also possible that the person who eventually gets a gun is allowed to own firearms, but they obtained it (for whatever "reason") by a "straw man" purchase. For example, you have a CPL and your buddy does not. He is able to legally own firearms. He says to you, "Hey man, I really want that gun in that gun store and I want it, like, NOW, because it's at a great price and I don't want someone snapping it up. Would you please go buy it NOW with your CPL, give it to me, and we'll get all the money and legal paperwork settled, like, next week?" You go in and buy the gun, with the intention of going to his house and handing it to him for keeps. BAM! You've just completed a straw man purchase, and the person eventually getting the gun IS allowed to own firearms.

NHCGRPR45 said:

Example: My dad buys a gun for me as a present I am 18 and able to own firearms. Not a straw purchase.

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Not true. It is a straw man purchase if the transfer to you is not legal (even though you may legally own a firearm) and the circumvention of legal requirements was known or intended.

NHCGRPR45 said:

"You can't buy it for someone who can't own it." Direct quote from the ATF office in detroit.

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They're wrong too. You can't buy it then illegally transfer it. Simple as that.

Thank you for the clarification, I put more stock in your advice than the ATF. When I asked them if I could buy a gun then transfer it to my dad they said no problem as long as all laws were followed. Buy buying the gun with the intent of my dad being the intended owner they said no problem so long as he was legal to own the gun. I asked what if he saw a gun at a great price and gave me the money to buy it. I did then held it until he got his permit they said again no problem. All laws followed. Since the actual transfer did not happen until the transfer by paperwork was complete.