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Questions for a beginner

xmanhockey7

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
1,195
Dan, I'm going to assume at some point in time you have purchased a firearm. If you purchase a firearm for someone else you are making a false statement on Form 4473 where you must indicate whether you are the actual transferee or buyer of the firearm.

This is my understanding of how it works. My source is the ATF. I looked up the gun control act of 1968 and could not find the actual word "straw purchase" and I wasn't about to read the entire thing just to find where it talks about those illegal purchases.

Example: I am under 21 so I cannot purchase a handgun. I go up to my neighbor, give me $600 and tell me I would like him to buy me a Glock 23. If he goes to a gun store and makes that purchase it is a straw purchase. He has lied on Form 4473 as to whether he is the actual buyer.

Example: My friend who is the same age as me (19) asks me to purchase a shotgun for him from an FFL. If he gives me money for it and I go make the purchase I have made a false statement on Form 4473.

Example: In both of the above examples the person purchasing the firearm is buying it as a gift to the person who will be receiving the firearm.

Example: I purchase a shotgun for myself. After having it for a week I'm experiencing buyers remorse and decide I want to sell it. I sell it to my 19 year old friend. No problems there.

So if you are purchasing the firearm for you then decide you want to sell it, you're good. But if you're purchasing for someone else, and it's not as a gift, you have lied on Form 4473 which is a crime.
 

NHCGRPR45

Regular Member
Joined
May 30, 2010
Messages
1,131
Location
Chesterfield Township, MI
Dan, I'm going to assume at some point in time you have purchased a firearm. If you purchase a firearm for someone else you are making a false statement on Form 4473 where you must indicate whether you are the actual transferee or buyer of the firearm.

This is my understanding of how it works. My source is the ATF. I looked up the gun control act of 1968 and could not find the actual word "straw purchase" and I wasn't about to read the entire thing just to find where it talks about those illegal purchases.

Example: I am under 21 so I cannot purchase a handgun. I go up to my neighbor, give me $600 and tell me I would like him to buy me a Glock 23. If he goes to a gun store and makes that purchase it is a straw purchase. He has lied on Form 4473 as to whether he is the actual buyer.

Example: My friend who is the same age as me (19) asks me to purchase a shotgun for him from an FFL. If he gives me money for it and I go make the purchase I have made a false statement on Form 4473.

Example: In both of the above examples the person purchasing the firearm is buying it as a gift to the person who will be receiving the firearm.

Example: I purchase a shotgun for myself. After having it for a week I'm experiencing buyers remorse and decide I want to sell it. I sell it to my 19 year old friend. No problems there.

So if you are purchasing the firearm for you then decide you want to sell it, you're good. But if you're purchasing for someone else, and it's not as a gift, you have lied on Form 4473 which is a crime.

Semantics.
Example: My friend who is the same age as me (19) asks me to purchase a shotgun for him from an FFL. If he gives me money for it and I go make the purchase I have made a false statement on Form 4473.

In the above example you are in fact having the gun legally transferred tou you first. Because if anyone has ever transferred a gun after buying it wouldn't that then constitute a straw purchase??

Also I don't buy into the gift clause. And if I did then all I would need to do ever is say I gave my friend 10 dollar gift then he gave me the rest of the cash to get him a gun.
 

DanM

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
1,928
Location
West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
Dan, I'm going to assume at some point in time you have purchased a firearm. If you purchase a firearm for someone else you are making a false statement on Form 4473 where you must indicate whether you are the actual transferee or buyer of the firearm.

Yes, I'm very familiar with that form. The form says you must be the "actual transferee/buyer". The form instructions clarify that by saying you must be acquiring "for yourself" or "as a gift" to someone else. The form instructions further clarify just what is meant by those by illustrating that it is neither "for yourself" nor "as a gift" if both of two conditions are met:
1) A third party asks you to buy the firearm for them.
AND
2) The third party gives you the money to buy the firearm.

xmanhockey7 said:
Example: I am under 21 so I cannot purchase a handgun. I go up to my neighbor, give me $600 and tell me I would like him to buy me a Glock 23. If he goes to a gun store and makes that purchase it is a straw purchase. He has lied on Form 4473 as to whether he is the actual buyer.

Correct. Both of the two conditions above are met. It's a straw man purchase.

xmanhockey7 said:
Example: My friend who is the same age as me (19) asks me to purchase a shotgun for him from an FFL. If he gives me money for it and I go make the purchase I have made a false statement on Form 4473.

Correct. Both of the two conditions above are met. It's a straw man purchase.

xmanhockey7 said:
Example: In both of the above examples the person purchasing the firearm is buying it as a gift to the person who will be receiving the firearm.

Correct. One or both of the two conditions are NOT met. It's a legal purchase.

xmanhockey7 said:
Example: I purchase a shotgun for myself. After having it for a week I'm experiencing buyers remorse and decide I want to sell it. I sell it to my 19 year old friend. No problems there.

Correct. One or both of the two conditions on the initial purchase are NOT met. The initial purchase was a legal purchase.

xmanhockey7 said:
So if you are purchasing the firearm for you then decide you want to sell it, you're good. But if you're purchasing for someone else, and it's not as a gift, you have lied on Form 4473 which is a crime.

Here is where you are not entirely correct, and it is because, unlike your previous examples, you lack defining specifics which dictate whether or not both of the two conditions are met.
Are you buying at the request of, or on behalf of, a third party?
AND
Did the third party give you the money to buy the firearm?

If someone asks you to buy for them AND gives you the money to buy, you are not the actual transferee/buyer.

Otherwise, you are the actual transferee/buyer. To clarify:

If someone asks you to buy a firearm for them but does not give you the money to buy, whether or not the word "gift" was used between you, it is legally and practically a gift you are buying, at the point and time of purchase. You have received no remuneration to acquire an object you intend to give to someone else. That is one definition of "buying a gift". You ARE the actual transferee/buyer, at the point and time of purchase.

If someone gives you money to buy a firearm, without any request or implication you would actually be buying for them, that is legally and practically a gift of money to you to purchase a firearm for yourself to use, enjoy, dispose of, etc. as you wish. Again, you ARE the actual transferee/buyer, at the point and time of purchase.

Thus, as you see, the two prongs of the test must be met TOGETHER in order to say you are NOT the actual transferee/buyer. Again, those two prongs are specifically on the form and how the form illustrates the determination of "actual transferee/buyer". And we are going with the language on the form, not anyone else's language or interpretations.
 
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Yance

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
568
Location
Battle Creek, MI
If you legally buy the firearm of your own money, then sell it to someone under the age of 21 who obtains a purchase permit. With that intent in mind, because you bought it with your own money, is that a legal purchase from an FFL?
 

DanM

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
1,928
Location
West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
If you legally buy the firearm of your own money, then sell it to someone under the age of 21 who obtains a purchase permit. With that intent in mind, because you bought it with your own money, is that a legal purchase from an FFL?

The ATF form merely says that you have to correctly answer that you are the "actual transferee/buyer" (question 11.a. on the form).

And the form illustrates in its instructions that you are not the "actual transferee/buyer" if two criteria exist:
1) You are buying a firearm for a third party.
AND
2) The third party gives you the money to buy the firearm.

Otherwise, you may correctly answer that you are the "actual transferee/buyer".

There is no law and nothing on the form that prohibits legally buying a firearm with your own money (or even someone else's money, as long as they are not having you buy it for them) and taking personal possession of it, then legally selling or gifting it to someone else.

And there is nothing in the law or the form which sets a minimum time period between the two transactions.

And there is nothing in the law or the form which prohibits you from having an intent when you buy a firearm legally to know that later you will legally sell it to someone else. Hell, I've bought one or two of my guns specifically with the intent to legally sell them to my children when they come of age, to give them a head start on being able to provide for their defense. According to the form, as long as my children didn't give me the money to buy those guns, I'm ok to call myself the "actual transferee/buyer".
 
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Haman J.T.

New member
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
1,245
Location
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Not true. As long as all parties to transactions are following federal and state laws governing commercial and private firearms transactions, there's no law that says a legal private firearm transaction can't follow a legal commercial firearm transaction. A person aged at least 21 may make a legal purchase from an FFL, then afterward make a legal sale to anyone he wishes to. As long as both distinct transaction individually are legal. The key word is LEGAL. Show me the law that says you can't legally buy a firearm if you have the intention of legally selling it to someone else.



Yep, those too, as long as all laws are being obeyed.



Not true. A "straw man" (to be correct) gun purchase is when a legal buyer makes a legal buy in order to subsequently illegally give or sell to anyone else. Thus, it's also possible that the person who eventually gets a gun is allowed to own firearms, but they obtained it (for whatever "reason") by a "straw man" purchase. For example, you have a CPL and your buddy does not. He is able to legally own firearms. He says to you, "Hey man, I really want that gun in that gun store and I want it, like, NOW, because it's at a great price and I don't want someone snapping it up. Would you please go buy it NOW with your CPL, give it to me, and we'll get all the money and legal paperwork settled, like, next week?" You go in and buy the gun, with the intention of going to his house and handing it to him for keeps. BAM! You've just completed a straw man purchase, and the person eventually getting the gun IS allowed to own firearms.



Not true. It is a straw man purchase if the transfer to you is not legal (even though you may legally own a firearm) and the circumvention of legal requirements was known or intended.



They're wrong too. You can't buy it then illegally transfer it. Simple as that.
Thank you for clearing up this simple question of "legal" and "illegal" buying and selling of fire arms.As a one time FFL holder,I've seen the anti's use the "straw man" argument falsely for 30 years! I bought my first handgun(S&W mod 29 44 mag) when I was 19,from a Monroe county Sheriff Leutenant,who had bought the gun NIB.I got my purchase permit and he then filled it out and handed me the gun to take in and have the safety inspection.This was in 78',and I've gone through many "legal" sales in this manner since,including my current carry gun( which was purchased at a gun show by a CPL holding relative until I could come up with the cash three weeks latter).I then got my purchase permit(this was prior to recieving my own CPL) and he filled it out and gave me the gun to present for safety inspection(which no longer exists thank God!). The Anti's will never show the difference between "legal" and "illegal" gun sales because it would destroy their deception and fraud against the citizens of this Free Nation!CARRY ON!
 
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