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Thread: Senate Moves To Allow Military To Arrest Americans Without Charge Or Trial

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Exclamation Senate Moves To Allow Military To Arrest Americans Without Charge Or Trial

    Last edited by rcawdor57; 11-28-2011 at 11:55 AM. Reason: added more links
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    A link to the text of the bill would be helpful. No offense, but I don't put much stock in Alex Jones.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oak1971 View Post
    A link to the text of the bill would be helpful. No offense, but I don't put much stock in Alex Jones.
    He talks about a lot of legit topics, but he always makes everything sound too spooky, like there is a black van sitting directly outside my house..
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    I don't have the link but after hearing Alex talk about this I read the bill, well the sections he talks about, and it specifically excludes American citizens from the grasp!

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Repost without formatting errors

    The link is above, but here it is again: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...BR>Sections

    Sections 1031 and 1032 are the parts everybody seems to be going paranoid about. From the text of Section 1032 (section 1031 is the other supposedly horrible part):

    SEC. 1032. REQUIREMENT FOR MILITARY CUSTODY.


    (a) Custody Pending Disposition Under Law of War-
    (1) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in paragraph (4), the Armed Forces of the United States shall hold a person described in paragraph (2) who is captured in the course of hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40) in military custody pending disposition under the law of war.
    (2) COVERED PERSONS- The requirement in paragraph (1) shall apply to any person whose detention is authorized under section 1031 who is determined--
    (A) to be a member of, or part of, al-Qaeda or an associated force that acts in coordination with or pursuant to the direction of al-Qaeda; and
    (B) to have participated in the course of planning or carrying out an attack or attempted attack against the United States or its coalition partners.
    (3) DISPOSITION UNDER LAW OF WAR- For purposes of this subsection, the disposition of a person under the law of war has the meaning given in section 1031(c), except that no transfer otherwise described in paragraph (4) of that section shall be made unless consistent with the requirements of section 1033.
    (4) WAIVER FOR NATIONAL SECURITY- The Secretary of Defense may, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence, waive the requirement of paragraph (1) if the Secretary submits to Congress a certification in writing that such a waiver is in the national security interests of the United States.
    (b) Applicability to United States Citizens and Lawful Resident Aliens-
    (1) UNITED STATES CITIZENS- The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to citizens of the United States.
    (2) LAWFUL RESIDENT ALIENS- The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to a lawful resident alien of the United States on the basis of conduct taking place within the United States, except to the extent permitted by the Constitution of the United States.


    Anybody can accuse anybody else of being Taliban or al-Qaeda (or communist, fascist, Martian or anything else). Just being accused is not going to mean you are going to be picked up and imprisoned at Gitmo, although I'm sure there are a lot of folks out there who woulds like to drop a dime on some other folks and see them whisked away to a dark dungeon, never to be seen again.

    Most of the folks on OCDO have no personal memory of Sen. Eugene McCarty and the Red Scare, but this seems to be a knee-jerk response in the other direction from what went on in the 1950's. While I have no problems with folks being very mindful of how legislation can be perverted, I am continually amazed at the level of paranoia some folks drum up where it is not warranted.

    I "know" my name is on any number of government watch lists (for a variety of reasons, some of which having to do with RKBA advocacy, others having to do with other political activism, and others being none of your business) but if I were to actually believe THEY were going to use this legislation to come and get me I'd check myself in ahead of their sending out the flying squad. One day THEY might actually come for me, but that day will be one well after I had a whole lot of warning by watching THEM rounding up other folks ahead of me.




    stay safe.
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    I still find it funny that people talk bad about McCarthy with the implication that he was wrong about the communists. Sure his methods were abhorrent, but he has been proven to be largely right by history.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    (2) COVERED PERSONS- The requirement in paragraph (1) shall apply to any person whose detention is authorized under section 1031 who is determined--
    (A) to be a member of, or part of, al-Qaeda or an associated force that acts in coordination with or pursuant to the direction of al-Qaeda; and

    (B) to have participated in the course of planning or carrying out an attack or attempted attack against the United States or its coalition partners.



    This certainly suits me.
    Proud Veteran ~ U.S. Army / Army Reserve

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    Dang, and here I was looking forward to getting to arrest people for no reason! I was thinking of starting with both state and federal government officials who have turned their back on the Constitution (both state and federal) and work to subvert and twist its meaning, but I guess the kabosh has been put on that.

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    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    Could someone please clearify what exactly "(b) Applicability to United States Citizens and Lawful Resident Aliens-
    (1) UNITED STATES CITIZENS- The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to citizens of the United States" means? I don't understand political jargon; as to me it sounds like it means either US Citizens are exempt and protected FROM this law or whatever it is... OR US Citizens are NOT exempt/protected from it.

    Thanks~

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    With proposed legislation such as this, and the laws already on the books, it would certainly seem that we are heading down a road towards a tyrannical government, a government that we could not use our second amendment rights to overthrow, (like the supreme court stated we were granted such a right for in hellar vs. D.C.,) because they would use legislation like this to arrest us before we ever had the opportunity. The men that founded our great nation would absolutely go ballistic to see where it's headed today, in fact, I'd say, they would have already stopped the madness that has been done, and regained constitutional control over their country! I'm 100% for stopping every known terrorist, but the wording of this bill means anyone that attacks the U.S. Government, or is about to, can be detained and held on suspicion alone. Our freedoms are slowly slipping away, and soon we won't be worrying about fighting for our 2A rights, but worrying about whether we are going to upset the government that controls every aspect of our lives. ( a little far-fetched, but honestly, this could be around the corner if we keep going like we are.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MilProGuy View Post
    (2) COVERED PERSONS- The requirement in paragraph (1) shall apply to any person whose detention is authorized under section 1031 who is determined--
    (A) to be a member of, or part of, al-Qaeda or an associated force that acts in coordination with or pursuant to the direction of al-Qaeda; and

    (B) to have participated in the course of planning or carrying out an attack or attempted attack against the United States or its coalition partners.



    This certainly suits me.
    Ok, so you trust Obama to make that determination? I don't. That needs to be done by the courts, and not military courts. Its not the place of the executive branch to make such a determination. That language does not stop the feds from arresting someone claiming the person fit those qualifications and then not giving them the protections of the bill of rights and privileges of being a citizen. No citizen should be stripped of either without a trial.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    Could someone please clearify what exactly

    "(b) Applicability to United States Citizens and Lawful Resident Aliens-
    (1) UNITED STATES CITIZENS- The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to citizens of the United States"

    means? I don't understand political jargon; as to me it sounds like it means either US Citizens are exempt and protected FROM this law or whatever it is... OR US Citizens are NOT exempt/protected from it.

    Thanks~<3
    You need to go back a bit to get the meaning -

    (a) Custody Pending Disposition Under Law of War-
    (1) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in paragraph (4), the Armed Forces of the United States shall hold a person described in paragraph (2) who is captured in the course of hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40) in military custody pending disposition under the law of war.

    (2) COVERED PERSONS- The requirement in paragraph (1) shall apply to any person whose detention is authorized under section 1031 who is determined--
    (A) to be a member of, or part of, al-Qaeda or an associated force that acts in coordination with or pursuant to the direction of al-Qaeda; and
    (B) to have participated in the course of planning or carrying out an attack or attempted attack against the United States or its coalition partners.
    They can only detain folks who are al-Qaeda/al-Qaeda allies/supporters who have actually participated in planning or carrying out an attack/attempted attack on the US or a US coalition partner.

    Then we get to your question - basically it says that the requirement to detain folks even if they are a "covered person" does not apply to US citizens. That pretty much translates into meaning that if a US citizen is going to be detained for being al-Qaeda or supporter who planned or carried out an attack/attempted attack the US citizen must be detained under some other law.

    Bottom line? All the paranoia about violations on Constitutional rights is just that - paranoia.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Bottom line? All the paranoia about violations on Constitutional rights is just that - paranoia.
    Paranoia is not always unjustified. Many times they are out to get you.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    He talks about a lot of legit topics, but he always makes everything sound too spooky, like there is a black van sitting directly outside my house..
    Don't worry, that's just me .

    I question this type of fear-mongering. Individuals actually believe that it is President Obama's personal quest to arrest all of us, throw us all into prison, and begin gassing us by the millions.

    I would be surprised if the Senate were presented with such a bill, that they would actually have the backing of their constituents to pass it.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post

    Then we get to your question - basically it says that the requirement to detain folks even if they are a "covered person" does not apply to US citizens. That pretty much translates into meaning that if a US citizen is going to be detained for being al-Qaeda or supporter who planned or carried out an attack/attempted attack the US citizen must be detained under some other law.

    Bottom line? All the paranoia about violations on Constitutional rights is just that - paranoia.

    stay safe.
    Not just "some other law," but rather, the Law of the United States. Meaning, the citizen is either going to be tried by the civilian, or military court. It didn't appear to me that where the U.S. citizen is captured is referenced. I mean, if a U.S. citizen is captured, say, in Iraq, would the same apply as if they were captured in Colorado? It seems that if they were captured in Iraq, then they would see a military court; Colorado, a civilian court.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    If polling data can ever be believed.

    Obama care; the $800+ billion 2nd 'stimulus'; the Senate has passed bill(s) that the majority, a clear majority, of their constituents did not want passed.
    I am encouraging all individuals who are concerned about this potential Law to read-up on it. If you are an individual who believes, concluded, or whatever, that the potential Law will deprive U.S. citizens of anything, well, there are a number of variables that must be established to know whether or not it would be the case. From what I understand is President Obama has told the Senate that if they do not remove that portion of the potential Law, that he will veto it.

    "Obama-care" was a short step that should have been taken further, much further.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    ...
    "Obama-care" was a short step that should have been taken further, much further.
    Just do away with all freedom?
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Not just "some other law," but rather, the Law of the United States. Meaning, the citizen is either going to be tried by the civilian, or military court. It didn't appear to me that where the U.S. citizen is captured is referenced. I mean, if a U.S. citizen is captured, say, in Iraq, would the same apply as if they were captured in Colorado? It seems that if they were captured in Iraq, then they would see a military court; Colorado, a civilian court.
    Forgive me for not stating the patently obvious, as contained in the bill itself - yes, of course they would be dealt with by "the Law of the United States" whatever the heck that is. There is, and was, no real possibity of any rational inference that a US citizen would be dealt with by the law(s) of some other country or some international tribunal. But some folks seem to want to have the obvious stated. I will try to remember that but will probably not be very sucessful as I tend to operate as if others are able to perform rudimentary thinking without such prompts being needed. I recommend getting and studying this book http://www.nolo.com/products/legal-research-LRES.html . Sometimes just browsing through places like http://public.findlaw.com/moretopics/ can help you get a grip on how to understand and interpret law.

    This bill does not make any reference to "enemy combatants". Therefore, a US citizen would have to be handled and treated the same way regardless of where they were detained (as opposed to "captured"). In fact, as the bill specifically says that US citzens are not to be detained under the provisions of this act it would be a logical reading to say that the location of where they committed te violation of other provisions of the act are not materal.

    stay safe.
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    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    SNIP...it would certainly seem that we are heading down a road towards a tyrannical government,...
    We've been there a long time! History tells us that we only transferred the tyrannical elitist power of Great Britain over to the tyrannical elitist power of America. It's a far better tyrannical elitist power we enjoy our freedom under, but still the same elitist with different faces, and minus the wigs who control.

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    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    I question this type of fear-mongering. Individuals actually believe that it is President Obama's personal quest to arrest all of us, throw us all into prison, and begin gassing us by the millions.
    Well, if not his personally, certainly in a general way many of his counsellors and supporters have espoused these agendas in their writings and public statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    I would be surprised if the Senate were presented with such a bill, that they would actually have the backing of their constituents to pass it.
    Depends on which party is in control ... as for whether their constituents back something, may I remind you of Obamacare and Nancy Pelosi's infamous statement, "You have to pass it to find out what's in it"?
    cheers - okboomer
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    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Not just "some other law," but rather, the Law of the United States. Meaning, the citizen is either going to be tried by the civilian, or military court. It didn't appear to me that where the U.S. citizen is captured is referenced. I mean, if a U.S. citizen is captured, say, in Iraq, would the same apply as if they were captured in Colorado? It seems that if they were captured in Iraq, then they would see a military court; Colorado, a civilian court.
    Nope, they are brought here and tried in civilian court John Walker Lindh
    cheers - okboomer
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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    ...No citizen should be stripped of either without a trial.
    This doesn't apply to American citizens.
    Proud Veteran ~ U.S. Army / Army Reserve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zipper View Post
    like there may possibly be considered a dark van sitting straight outside my house.. Buy World Of Warcraft Gold
    These spam bots are getting a lot more intelligent it seems. This one actually commented on one of the posts! Even if it did so with the grammar and accuracy of a child that speaks English as a second language.

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    It never ceases to amaze me how some jump on the bandwagon without actually reading the text of the "offending" bill.

    There is no there there.

    I suspect that this bill is intended to fill a legal hole created by the authorization for the use of force as opposed to a formal declaration of war. We need to return to formal declarations, but that is another discussion.


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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    1031(b)(1) - Did you aid the 9-11 terrorists? No? Then this legislation if passed into law does not apply to you.

    1031(b)(2) - Are you a person who has committed a belligerent act (against the US for al-Qaeda/Taliban or associated forces) or directly supported (materially) al-Qaed/Taliban? No? Then this legislation if passed into law does not apply to you.

    If you qualify as a 'covered' person AND are a US citizen, then 1032 comes into play regarding your 'detention'.

    1032(b)(1) UNITED STATES CITIZENS- The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to citizens of the United States.

    So, non issue for We The People.
    Outstanding post, my friend.
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