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Thread: Why knock Beretta?

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    Regular Member hrufrdr1's Avatar
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    Why knock Beretta?

    I don't understand all the anti-Beretta sentiments out there! I carried the M9 in the service, I have the 92sf, and I recently upped my caliber to the PX 4 Storm .45. Is it the price? I've never had any problems at all with Beretta's products, so why all the bashing?

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Do you have an example of this "bashing"? I would say that Beretta gets the same amount or less than other gun manufacturers like Taurus. Some people just don't like them, if you're last name isn't Beretta, I wouldn't worry about it. I have a Beretta and I like it.
    Last edited by thebigsd; 11-28-2011 at 04:42 PM.
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    Never much liked my M9, when permitted I usually opted for an 1911, myself..
    The pistol was fine, I have no love at all for the round though.
    The grip frame on M9's never fit my hand well, and the reach for that trigger-and the trigger pull, for that matter, never sat well with me.
    As a result I could hardly hit squat with that thing.

    My only real gripe, beyond that, with the pistol itself, was the exposed trigger bar. Way too many times I've seen those get bent slightly-barely enough to be noticable, but-when fired, the pistol would'nt reset the trigger. It had to be manually pushed back forward with the trigger finger to re-set it for the next shot.
    Apart from being too easily damaged when bumping around and the like, it's also too exposed to dirt/mud/sand etc.

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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    I don't think I'd ever go so far as to bash Beretta, but to me most of their weapons just aren't that exciting. I can't see a reason to pick them over many other manufacturers.

    The 92: the grip is huge, the weight is strangely all in the grip, the decocker is pointless (who needs a decocker on a hammer fired pistol!?), and you'd think with a 5" barrel that it would be a tack driver, but I've heard both ways on that issue. It's probably been 10+ years since I've tried the 92, and that is what I took away from it. If you want a 5" 9mm, I'd say go with an XDm. If polymer isn't your thing I'd say go with a Browning Hi-Power, or BDM if you have to have DA/SA.

    Shotguns: what can their shotguns do that shotguns from Mossberg and Remington can't for half the price?

    The 90two: this looks like a worthwhile upgrade from the 92. I haven't held one yet, but the ergonomics look much improved, and hopefully so has the accuracy. At $700+, this all comes with a pretty significant price though.

    The Px4: I actually really liked this gun when I finally got to see one in a shop. The grip still seems unneccesarily large, and the rotating action is a little strange for a pistol, but I actually considered it before buying my Walther. I also like that it's available in a variety of calibers, including .45. However, I couldn't find one before I bought my Walther, and I'd already fallen in love with the P99's grip anyway.

    IMO Beretta doesn't make inferior weapons, I just can't bring myself to get excited about buying any of them-especially for the price. The Px4 is the lone exception. If I wanted a compact .45 with good capacity, I would glady choose it over a Glock.
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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum!

    I don't bash pistols of any kind...nor revolvers, either.

    I'm the kind of guy who never met a handgun that I didn't like.
    Proud Veteran ~ U.S. Army / Army Reserve

    Mississippi State Guard ~ Honorably Retired


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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    the decocker is pointless (who needs a decocker on a hammer fired pistol!?)
    It's to lessen the chances of military and police folk who aren't enthusiasts (and likewise those not smart enough to obey the four rules...of whom there are many) from readily becoming a danger to either themselves or their unit, while still allowing them something that's going to go 'bang' when they really mean to use it.

    These sort of people are the reason the M1911 has a grip-safety and a manual safety, and also made most military units later adopt the ostensibly less safe and less ready practice of carrying chamber empty, hammer down--and completely empty in garrison... Because even though the sidearm is designed to carry cocked and locked, you'll always have some dufus who can and will screw up, and they'll probably shoot someone more useful than themselves. The heavier and longer double action trigger was thought to deter these sort of problems.

    These sort of people are the same reason you'll never see an XD, or a Glock or M&P of any kind of pistol without an external safety as an issued sidearm in the US military.

    Anyway, I think a lot of the hate on the M9 comes from a) 9mm NATO loads, which do kind of suck in wounding capacity relative to military issue .45 ammo, and b) old and worn out service pistols, and c) it's often popular to hate on something new.

    I think they're fine, unless you're a dainty womanly type who can't wrap their princess fingers around a grip--I don't have big meat hooks and I wondered what the complaint was. I found the grip comfortable. I just can't wrap my head around why they've just recently added a dovetailed front sight to the new 92A1. It's been around thirty-five years and they just now figured out that it might be nice to slide some night sights in there?

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    So I can carry an open-bolt M-60 with a trigger mechanism that falls off (causing the gun to run away - but not that that ever happened in the 3 years I carried it as my primary weapon), but I need a decocker on my sidearm.

    I hated my M9. I was the first person it was issued to, so not like it was worn out. It has no natural pointing ability at ALL in my hand.
    Last edited by Elkad; 11-28-2011 at 06:10 PM.

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    People hate the M9 because it replaced the beloved 1911 in military service made by John Moses Browning. Any pistol that replaced it you can bet your dollar on would have just as much malignment. It is amazing how much some of those people go out of their way to make the gun sound like the worst gun ever when many of the things they complain about are required features for the gun to have entered the military competition, and many of the issues they claim it has are blown out of porportion or in some cases outright fabrication.


    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    I don't think I'd ever go so far as to bash Beretta, but to me most of their weapons just aren't that exciting. I can't see a reason to pick them over many other manufacturers.

    The 92: the grip is huge, the weight is strangely all in the grip, the decocker is pointless (who needs a decocker on a hammer fired pistol!?), and you'd think with a 5" barrel that it would be a tack driver, but I've heard both ways on that issue. It's probably been 10+ years since I've tried the 92, and that is what I took away from it. If you want a 5" 9mm, I'd say go with an XDm. If polymer isn't your thing I'd say go with a Browning Hi-Power, or BDM if you have to have DA/SA.
    There is the 92G, 92D, and other variants to suit your decocker preferences. G is decock only with no safety, D is double action only, no lever. A D slide on an F results in DA/SA without a lever, forcing you to manually decock, if that is your thing. The decocker is not a unique feature among hammer fired pistols. (The military required a double action gun with a manual safety, a decocking lever, and a hammer. I'm not a fan of safety levers myself, but the configuration is more a matter of preference than an inherit design flaw, especially when there are options available. I do like hammers a lot though.)

    The accuracy of the 92 is on par with other service semi-autos, about 10 MOA or so. That corresponds to about 2.5 inch groups at 25 yards. Many shooters of other guns have trouble with the trigger and don't spend the time to learn it properly. As with other pistols, the 92 can be accurized as well. The Army Marskman Unit M9's have made a few records. Getting an aftermarket Barsto hand fitted and/or something like the nut made by WAL on the Berettaforum and the gun is more accurate than the average 9mm. You are adding to the price here, but if you think the 92 is innacurate for a semi-auto you are probably comparing it to more expensive guns or never took the time to master the trigger. I'd bet most of the people who complain about the accuracy of the 92 shoot a gun that is as innacurate and in many cases less accurate from a mechanical rest, unless they are used to using an S&W revolver or a much more expensive gun like a Wilson 1911 with an accuracy gaurantee.

    If the 90-two seems more accurate, it is most likely from the different grip or slightly extended sight radius.

    There are also variants of the 92 that allow for cocked-and-locked with a frame safety, single action only etc.

    Plastic framed guns, oftentimes, tend to be sensitive to limp-wristing. Guns like the XD are also not double action, at least not in the way a revolver is double action. (Dry fire practice with a double action gun like the 92 is a piece of cake, just keep pulling the trigger... double tap capability also exists. On an XD, you would need to rack the slide eject, and reinsert the snap cap each time.) The Browning Hi-Power is a nice gun too, but I don't see any major advantage it has over the 92, unless you prefer a steel frame to an aluminum one, or want a frame safety and don't want to find one of the 92 variants with the frame safety. The 92 can accept Mec-Gar magazines that hold 18 rounds flush fit, or 20 rounds just barely sticking out. Balance is subjective, but I find the balance of 92 to be fine, and the 92 is one of the smoothest actions I've felt on a semi-auto pistol. The direct competition to the Beretta 92 is most nearly Sig's line of handguns, which are more expensive.

    It's just my subjective opinion, but I'd personally take any 92 variant over a Glock or an XD any day.

    As for Beretta's price, you can get a basic 92FS for about $500, or used you can often get police trade in 92D, 92G, 92F/FS models for like $300 through CDNN and similar sources and many of those come with night sights. On average it may be slightly more expensive than a Glock, but the price difference is not that great, and the quality of the gun is pretty nice. A comparable Sig often costs about $200 more.

    I can't speak for the PX4, and am not a Beretta loyalist trying to defend them at all costs, but I am a big proponent of the 92 and have heard much misinformation about the gun over the years. You wouldn't believe the lies I've heard from my local gun store owners about the gun. (One time, several years ago, the owner of one local gun shop insisted that Beretta stopped making them because they were so bad!)

    The Beretta Tomcat on the other hand, I cannot recommend that gun unless you get the titanium framed version. That gun is not durable and the aluminum frame is likely to crack after a few hundred rounds.
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 11-28-2011 at 07:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrufrdr1 View Post
    I don't understand all the anti-Beretta sentiments out there! I carried the M9 in the service, I have the 92sf, and I recently upped my caliber to the PX 4 Storm .45. Is it the price? I've never had any problems at all with Beretta's products, so why all the bashing?

    I donít know about previous guns that Beretta manufactured but with Px4 storm they did a great job. I have one, type F, and I love every single thing about that gun.

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    Italian gun manufactures did what Ruger did to the US... they sold their country out:
    According to Mr. Recanatini, a Beretta USA represenative that frequents the Beretta forum, Beretta was not one of the companies that voted in favor of the restrictions:

    http://berettaforum.net/vb/showpost....8&postcount=17

    What the truth of this matter is I cannot say, but that is what Beretta says.
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 11-28-2011 at 07:50 PM.

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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elkad View Post
    So I can carry an open-bolt M-60 with a trigger mechanism that falls off (causing the gun to run away - but not that that ever happened in the 3 years I carried it as my primary weapon), but I need a decocker on my sidearm.

    I hated my M9. I was the first person it was issued to, so not like it was worn out. It has no natural pointing ability at ALL in my hand.
    Yes, I think I remember this as well. The grip is just all kinds of weird on that gun.

    Joe: I don't have small hands at all. I actually have pretty big, spidery hands and the grip fits fine. I just don't understand how H&K can make a double stack .45 that feels smaller and more comfortable than Beretta's double stack 9mm. I swear it must be a gaping cavern between the grip walls and the magazine.

    Maximus: that is a lot of good info on the 92 series that I was completely ignorant of. Thanks for all of that. As for the decocker, it's not so much that I want to manually decock the gun, it's that the safety is a decocker, so if you want to carry it cocked and locked...you can't! It's either condition zero/cocked and unlocked, which is a little disconcerting for EDC, or hammer down, safety off. But why would I want to be burdened by a double action pull when I have a manual safety?

    But the decocker is far from my biggest gripe about the 92. My biggest gripe is definitely ergonomics. The strange balance, the unneccesarily huge grip, and the natural point of aim.

    One thing that I do like about the 92 that a lot of people look at as a con is the exposed barrel. I've heard people say that it leaves it open to fouling by sand and dirt. Well, sand and dirt are going to find their way into the action anyway if you use them in that environment. The only way you're going to keep it out is to somehow seal off the gun from every opening. IMO, having it all open allows the user to shake it out and facilitates faster cooling of the barrel.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

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    EDC = Walther PPQ 9mm

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    Although many frown on modifying safety mechanisms, I also hear it is relatively easy to modify a 92FS to be carried cocked and locked:


    http://berettaforum.net/vb/showthrea...=cocked+locked
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 11-28-2011 at 08:04 PM.

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    Activist Member carsontech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felid`Maximus View Post
    According to Mr. Recanatini, a Beretta USA represenative that frequents the Beretta forum, Beretta was not one of the companies that voted in favor of the restrictions:

    http://berettaforum.net/vb/showpost....8&postcount=17

    What the truth of this matter is I cannot say, but that is what Beretta says.
    I should have included that in my initial post, but I couldn't find any cites from the "rep", that Beretta did not vote in favor of the restrictions. He never responded to my messages and never gave me any documentation of what Beretta did.

    I hope he is just busy and not ignoring me, and I hope he is correct, because I hate sell outs, and I think the M9 is sexy.

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    the only complaint i have is that on the 92 my thumb on my gun hand wont reach the slide release. even with that i shot it very accurately, which happened to be the first time i ever fired a handgun, half dollar size group on the heart at typical fight distance [7 yards], nra basic pistol course. also i carry a 21a as a bug, very reliable and accurate little thing, [good for teaching others on as well]

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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    I like my Beretta's. Course they are 96's!

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    When I've talked with security forces working the armory the issues that they expressed with the standard issue 9mm is that the barrels wear out fast, they don't have the money to replace the barrels that are simply worn out, and they said that the slide was notorious for cracking along the sides due to the open top part. They also weren't fans of the plastic guide rod, but (at least for the AF) they switched to them due to people being less than smart and causing injuries/roof damage with the metal ones while disasembling the gun in training.

    Personally I don't really have an issue with it, but I only shoot 90 rounds through the baretta every one to two years. So I figured I would pass along the issues I've heard about with the gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by west View Post
    I donít know about previous guns that Beretta manufactured but with Px4 storm they did a great job. I have one, type F, and I love every single thing about that gun.
    Glad you said this. I did some test shots on one at the range recently and have been trying to decide if I want to invest in one. I really don't know much about Barettas.

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    Oh, as for how the service carries I know that the air force teaches us to carry the 9mm with it decocked, one in the tube, and off safety. I remember the instructor saying that we were the only service to carry our handgun like this, with the navy carrying it on safety and both the marines and army carrying it on safe and w/o one in the tube. We were taught to carry our rifle chamber empty and on safe though.

    Note that this could be wrong about the other services and is simply what we were told during training.

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    That is true about navy carry. We holster with one in the pipe and safety on (and therefore decocked). Its just a CYA thing for the uppers so if there is a negligent discharge it means that they had to un-holster, remove the safety, and pull the trigger with enough force for a double action fire and the ya-hoo cant say 'it just went off' like they usually do. I think its a good balance between safety and quickness of response. I work in a navy armory and I canít even imagine having to rack it if I really had to draw down of someone. Itís just because we have a full gamut of people in the military from those who are very conftorble with weapons and know what a 'sear' is, to those who think 'guns are icky', so they have to accommodate all those people into the same program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StoicMaverick View Post
    I work in a navy armory and I canít even imagine having to rack it if I really had to draw down of someone.
    Neither can I. I can't imagine having to remember to flick the safety off, either, which is why I carry it in condition 2 (round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down, safety off), same as I did while flying in combat. At that, the firearm still has four "safeties:"
    1. My brain. I'm not going to draw it out of its holder unless I need to use it.
    2. Firing pin block. It can't be fired until the trigger has been pulled a significant length of its travel.
    3. 6-lb trigger pull.
    4. It's fully holstered, thereby guarding the trigger from catching on something.

    Itís just because we have a full gamut of people in the military from those who are very conftorble with weapons and know what a 'sear' is, to those who think 'guns are icky', so they have to accommodate all those people into the same program.[/QUOTE]

    I chuckle every time I remember this one kid during 9mm refresher training who complained about having to periodically re-qualify. He said, "I don't like guns." We sat in stunned silence for a couple of seconds before the instructor said, "Son, you're in the wrong profession!"
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    we still call that condition 1 which applies anytime there is a round in the chamber. I don't mind it but I also grew up on a 1911 so it feels very natural to me to flick the safety off as I punch out. all preference I suppose.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    You Are BOTH Wrong!!!!

    keep in mind that the 4 conditions of carry really only apply to single action hammer guns...

    If you carry a Double action gun, and the safety is OFF, it dont matter if it is cocked or not..
    That gun is effectively in Condition ZERO!!!
    Pull it out of the holster, Aim it, Pull the trigger!!!

    Glocks are always properly carried cond. 0. you really have no choice, unless you carry cond. 3. there is No cond. 1 or 2...
    Xds with no safety are properly carried cond. 0. same as glock,
    unless you have a safety, then you have a choice of cond. 0, 1, or 3, but no cond. 2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    When I've talked with security forces working the armory the issues that they expressed with the standard issue 9mm is that the barrels wear out fast, they don't have the money to replace the barrels that are simply worn out, and they said that the slide was notorious for cracking along the sides due to the open top part.
    Keep in mind that the military shoots those guns a lot. Last I heard, the slides are supposed to average around 70,000 rounds before replacement is needed. At twenty cents a round that's about $14,000 worth of ammo, or about 28 times the cost of the gun. (The slides can also be replaced for cheaper than the entire cost of the gun.)
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 12-03-2011 at 03:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Felid`Maximus View Post
    Keep in mind that the military shoots those guns a lot. Last I heard, the slides are supposed to average around 70,000 rounds before replacement is needed. At twenty cents a round that's about $14,000 worth of ammo, or about 28 times the cost of the gun. (The slides can also be replaced for cheaper than the entire cost of the gun.)
    I don't think they are lasting that long. At 70k rounds that would be 778 qualifications per slide at 90 rounds per qual. With the way the SF was talking it was far more common than that. Not that there aren't slides that last that long, but it sounded like most didn't.

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