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Why knock Beretta?

since9

Campaign Veteran
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Jan 14, 2010
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Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
I work in a navy armory and I can’t even imagine having to rack it if I really had to draw down of someone.

Neither can I. I can't imagine having to remember to flick the safety off, either, which is why I carry it in condition 2 (round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down, safety off), same as I did while flying in combat. At that, the firearm still has four "safeties:"
1. My brain. I'm not going to draw it out of its holder unless I need to use it.
2. Firing pin block. It can't be fired until the trigger has been pulled a significant length of its travel.
3. 6-lb trigger pull.
4. It's fully holstered, thereby guarding the trigger from catching on something.

It’s just because we have a full gamut of people in the military from those who are very conftorble with weapons and know what a 'sear' is, to those who think 'guns are icky', so they have to accommodate all those people into the same program.[/QUOTE]

I chuckle every time I remember this one kid during 9mm refresher training who complained about having to periodically re-qualify. He said, "I don't like guns." We sat in stunned silence for a couple of seconds before the instructor said, "Son, you're in the wrong profession!"
 

StoicMaverick

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Nov 5, 2011
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Norfolk, Virginia
we still call that condition 1 which applies anytime there is a round in the chamber. I don't mind it but I also grew up on a 1911 so it feels very natural to me to flick the safety off as I punch out. all preference I suppose.
 

1245A Defender

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Jul 7, 2009
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north mason county, Washington, USA
Well,,,

You Are BOTH Wrong!!!!

keep in mind that the 4 conditions of carry really only apply to single action hammer guns...

If you carry a Double action gun, and the safety is OFF, it dont matter if it is cocked or not..
That gun is effectively in Condition ZERO!!!
Pull it out of the holster, Aim it, Pull the trigger!!!

Glocks are always properly carried cond. 0. you really have no choice, unless you carry cond. 3. there is No cond. 1 or 2...
Xds with no safety are properly carried cond. 0. same as glock,
unless you have a safety, then you have a choice of cond. 0, 1, or 3, but no cond. 2
 

Felid`Maximus

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Reno, Nevada, USA
When I've talked with security forces working the armory the issues that they expressed with the standard issue 9mm is that the barrels wear out fast, they don't have the money to replace the barrels that are simply worn out, and they said that the slide was notorious for cracking along the sides due to the open top part.

Keep in mind that the military shoots those guns a lot. Last I heard, the slides are supposed to average around 70,000 rounds before replacement is needed. At twenty cents a round that's about $14,000 worth of ammo, or about 28 times the cost of the gun. (The slides can also be replaced for cheaper than the entire cost of the gun.)
 
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Aknazer

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Mar 6, 2011
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California
Keep in mind that the military shoots those guns a lot. Last I heard, the slides are supposed to average around 70,000 rounds before replacement is needed. At twenty cents a round that's about $14,000 worth of ammo, or about 28 times the cost of the gun. (The slides can also be replaced for cheaper than the entire cost of the gun.)

I don't think they are lasting that long. At 70k rounds that would be 778 qualifications per slide at 90 rounds per qual. With the way the SF was talking it was far more common than that. Not that there aren't slides that last that long, but it sounded like most didn't.
 

Dreamer

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Anyway, I think a lot of the hate on the M9 comes from a) 9mm NATO loads, which do kind of suck in wounding capacity relative to military issue .45 ammo, and b) old and worn out service pistols, and c) it's often popular to hate on something new.

Actually, the 9mm Nato (ball ammo) round has excellent "wounding" ability--it rarely kills--that is why is was adopted almost universally in favor of more damaging rounds like the .45acp. Wounded soldiers present MUCH more impact on logistics, operations, and material of the military than dead ones do. Modern warfare is NOT predicated on killing the other side--it's designed to incapacitate their ability to wage war by bogging them down with massive non-lethal casualties which suck time, troops, material, and funding away from the prosecution of battle...
 

09jisaac

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Louisa, Kentucky
Actually, the 9mm Nato (ball ammo) round has excellent "wounding" ability--it rarely kills--that is why is was adopted almost universally in favor of more damaging rounds like the .45acp. Wounded soldiers present MUCH more impact on logistics, operations, and material of the military than dead ones do. Modern warfare is NOT predicated on killing the other side--it's designed to incapacitate their ability to wage war by bogging them down with massive non-lethal casualties which suck time, troops, material, and funding away from the prosecution of battle...

Exactly.

The military wants to wound them but the soldiers want to kill them. I do think most don't like it because it replaced the 1911 in 45. Most shooters would recognize that the 1911 is a proven gun, with the .45 as a proven round.
 

Felid`Maximus

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I don't think they are lasting that long. At 70k rounds that would be 778 qualifications per slide at 90 rounds per qual. With the way the SF was talking it was far more common than that. Not that there aren't slides that last that long, but it sounded like most didn't.

According to http://www.tactical-life.com/online/combat-handguns/beretta-m9a1-9mm/

The M9 has been criticized for lack of reliability, but the facts speak otherwise. In response to early criticisms, the Army conducted testing at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Maryland, with results that should silence all those who doubt the M9’s reliability. M9 frames lasted an average of 35,000 rounds. Locking blocks went for an average of 22,000 rounds, while slide life averaged for 75,000 rounds. This is essentially a lifetime of shooting. As to malfunctions, documented tests of M9 pistols revealed that, using military specification ammunition, the M9 averaged only a single stoppage in 17,500 rounds.
 
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09jisaac

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Louisa, Kentucky
OK guys. I get the hint. I will do it. As long as you all supply me the rounds I will buy a beretta and torture test it.
 

j4l

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fl
Actually, the 9mm Nato (ball ammo) round has excellent "wounding" ability--it rarely kills--that is why is was adopted almost universally in favor of more damaging rounds like the .45acp. Wounded soldiers present MUCH more impact on logistics, operations, and material of the military than dead ones do. Modern warfare is NOT predicated on killing the other side--it's designed to incapacitate their ability to wage war by bogging them down with massive non-lethal casualties which suck time, troops, material, and funding away from the prosecution of battle...

Actually that was the theory behind the 5.56mm more than handgun rounds of any cal. (plus the lighter-weight load/more rounds carried per troop, etc.) A flawed theory vs. modern foes. Might work if the enemies we most often face gave as much of a care about their cannon-fodder as we do about ours, but otherwise Is just another example of us projecting how WE view the world, vs. the savages we most-often encounter on the fields.
 

Yard Sale

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Years ago, a shooting enthusiast co-worker took his boss and his boss' boss (both non-shooters) shooting. His 92F slide broke cleanly in half and continued into the face of his boss, who required rescontructive facial surgery.

I guess those myths about military personnel being killed by broken M9 slides to the foreheads might not be so mythical after all.
 
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CotySinz

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Dec 9, 2011
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I don't quite understand the Beretta hate myself. I think a lot has to do with the fact that it replaced the 1911. That people who enlist straight out of high school that have never fired a hand gun are required to use a worn out(usually) gun that is rather bulky and people have trouble adapting to the grip. I personally own the M9A1 and I love it, it is an excellent gun if maintained well the Beretta seems to dry out pretty quick even when shooting higher quality ammo so cleaning and lubricating is a MUST. Your equipment is only as good as it is maintained. I have a flashlight mounted on the gun and it has like no recoil which is nice and people who say 9mm doesn't have stopping power - stand on the other side of the barrel and argue that logic. I wouldn't want shot with a .22 let lone a 9mm.
 

Felid`Maximus

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Years ago, a shooting enthusiast co-worker took his boss and his boss' boss (both non-shooters) shooting. His 92F slide broke cleanly in half and continued into the face of his boss, who required rescontructive facial surgery.

I guess those myths about military personnel being killed by broken M9 slides to the foreheads might not be so mythical after all.

Was that your coworker or a coworker of an internet shooting enthusiast?

Beretta fixed the issue of dangerous slide separation that could occur in the 92F by using an enlarged hammer pin, (thus changing the designation to 92FS), preventing the slide from flying off in the event of catastrophic failure. This was done to address the military concern, and it is also incorporated into the current version of the M9. I don't believe military personnel have been killed by a slide, but a few have been injured. Only a few slides broke off in such a catastrophic fashion, also. Last I heard Beretta would update a 92F for free if you contacted them.

To get a better understanding, consider this article: http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/true_story_m9.htm
 
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Yard Sale

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Was that your coworker or a coworker of an internet shooting enthusiast?
I thought I was clear. Let be more clear. I frequently had lunch with this person. After the accident, he would remove his false teeth/dental bridge/whatever you call it while having lunch.

It's still an internet myth to you but I knew a victim of a Beretta 92F and I saw the damage.
 

UtahRSO

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Jul 28, 2007
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Location
Lehi, Utah, USA
My son is a Federal officer (guard) on a military base, and he has to carry an M9. At first he thought it would be OK, and he passed his qualification with it as the top shooter in his group. But it didn't take long for him to change his mind. He's not worried about it going bang when it should, but he says it doesn't fit his hand, it's too heavy, and the DA trigger pull is the pits. He'd lots rather carry an XD, a Glock, or even a Ruger P95 if he had to carry a DA with a long trigger pull. Those are the ones he's familiar with in 9mm. Of course there are others he might like, he's just never tried them. But he thinks the M9 is a mistake.
 

Felid`Maximus

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I thought I was clear. Let be more clear. I frequently had lunch with this person. After the accident, he would remove his false teeth/dental bridge/whatever you call it while having lunch.

It's still an internet myth to you but I knew a victim of a Beretta 92F and I saw the damage.

You did repeat a myth in your post, that the slides are killing people. Three injured military personnel way back at the start of the M9 trials with a model that has since been fixed to address that very issue is not equivalent to an endemic problem of people being killed. Even if your own personal friend, using the same outdated model that isn't made any more, had to get reconstructive surgery afterwards, that doesn't imply anything about current guns which have had a design change, and doesn't even imply much about the myth that they are killing soldiers. If it didn't kill your friend, it probably didn't kill the soldiers, either. But there is no need to speculate, the incidents are actually recorded and one can actually find out the truth if they desire to.

I questioned whether it was your coworker or someone elses because you referred to his boss as if his boss was not someone you knew. You thought you were clear, but it was not clear to me. A lot of the times, when we hear that something happened to a friend of a friend of a friend, things aren't always as they have been told. It's a fairly rare occurrence for a 92 slide to break when shot by a civilian at all, because most civilians don't put enough rounds through their guns to see catastrophic failures.

As for catastrophic failures... Berettas are not the only guns that catastrophically fail. We've all read about Glocks and other polymer framed guns KB'ing. People have been injured by other guns catastrophically failing too. And many of these guns have a worse track record. But they didn't replace the 1911, so people don't see the need to point it out in every single conversation about the manufacturer.

Now, I'm not a blind defender of Beretta, but I believe that we ought to look at this from an objective perspective and stick to the facts. Yes it has flaws and so does the company and its history, but when you look at things in perspective the 92 doesn't really have such a bad track record. Even if one insists that every 92 is a bad gun, it should be argued to be a bad gun on the basis of fact. Hyperbole ought to be rejected.

Let's presume there is a major problem with all currently produced 92 variants... If everyone, out of fear of being criticized for pointing out the truth, refrained from correcting false and exaggerated statements, then people might dismiss whatever true problem exists because it is hidden in a pile of hyperbole.
 
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Cavalryman

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Jun 6, 2010
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296
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Anchorage, Alaska
If the Beretta M9 fits your hand, you will do just fine with it. Many people like the way it feels. I don't dislike it but I don't particularly like it either because its ergonomics are just so-so for me. I certainly could defend myself with it and wouldn't really feel screwed, but for me the CZs have much better ergonomics and pack the same firepower in a smaller package. I certainly don't bash the Beretta because mine is totally reliable and will put lead in the right place, but it's not what I reach for when I think I might really need it.
 

decklin

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Sep 2, 2011
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Pacific, WA
Ok, so I see alot of speculation for the military side. Here is what I can tell you about Beretta (M9) from an Infantry viewpoint.
The slides usually last between 20,000-30,000 rounds before they crack. The reason the military had a problem during the early days of OIF was because of frequent jamming. The Government neglected to buy Beretta magazines because they wanted to save money. So they went with the lowest bidder. They ended up with these extremely cheap magazines with a crackle finish that did not feed properly. What you got was double feeds, mis-feeds, and stovepipes. To remedy the situation the soldiers families started buying and shipping Beretta magazines to their soldiers. The problem with this was the assault weapons ban was still in effect and the families could only buy 10 rd mags.
This problem was originally misidentified as being caused by the sand. Even though you're supposed to keep your weapon clean. This was of course not true as the Israelis have been using the Beretta for more than 40 years as well as many other desert dwelling cultures using the Beretta and Beratta knock-offs.
As it is a military weapon it gets alot of use which means wear and tear. Once during an M9 qual I ended up with an M9 that was so worn out it would fire three rounds with every squeeze of the trigger.
The Army, by the way, carries in red. Round chambered, safety on.
There was also an above comment about the 5.56mm NATO but I had a hard time understanding it fully. You were right that we use the 5.56mm because we can carry more of it. We must carry a base load of 210 rounds and I frequently had an extra mag or two. Can you imagine trying to carry all those magazines to keep that base load in a combat application with 7.62mm? We already wear about 65lbs as it is.
Some people say we switched to the 5.56mm because it is more humane. Trust me though, there is nothing humane about the 5.56. Upon penetration the round likes to take a turn and break bones and shred organs and frequently fragments. This is clearly evident with exit wounds. Though a round does not usually punch through, that's really just in the movies, when it does it is frequently in a different area.
 

REALteach4u

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Nov 25, 2010
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Spfld, Mo.
I don't understand all the anti-Beretta sentiments out there! I carried the M9 in the service, I have the 92sf, and I recently upped my caliber to the PX 4 Storm .45. Is it the price? I've never had any problems at all with Beretta's products, so why all the bashing?

Stinking pumpkin on a post sights...grrr...stupid cam set up....grrr....overweighted brick...grrr....being pressured by the Italian government to buy them or lose our bases in Italy....grrr....

The US military magazines put me off badly. We had brand new mags (still in the plastic) on my sand-box outing and most of our magazines began failing during week 2. I managed to acquire some of the Italian mags and we didn't have a single problem.

Once I had my hands on a civilian 92 with 3-dot night sights I found it to be quite a reliable platform. A friend had a cam failure on his only to have the armorer tell him that is the weak point of the 92.

Have a former student that purchased a Storm. I can't wait to get a chance to shoot it!
 
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