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Thread: Just what is this 'right to bear arms?'

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    Just what is this 'right to bear arms?'

    Just what is this ‘right to bear arms’ and what does it cover?


    Washington State’s own Tri-City Herald today published an editorial that speaks about the Second Amendment and how many liberals cling to the notion that it is the illegitimate son in the Bill of Rights...


    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...-does-it-cover

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    The whole "question" comes right down to this:

    But the stakes are much higher, since making the right determination about who should - and should not - carry a gun is a potential matter of life and death to a degree unmatched by rules about who gets to slide behind the wheel of a vehicle.
    Dave asks the right questions about which death is more worthy of concern - someone killed by a gunshot or someone killed by a car crash? That the behavior that caused the death by either means was illegal or not does not matter. One death is no more or more less important because of the instrument responsible for the death.

    But the fact that there are far fewer deaths caused by guns than by cars does not seem to matter. Nor does the fact that there are probably as many guns as there are cars in the country. What matters is that GUNZ ARE EVVVILLLLL!!!!!11eleventy!

    So the answer is to restrict the right and relax the rules regarding the privilege? There are times when I truely wonder if there are folks out there whose smarts leaked out of their heads.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    "...illegitimate son in the Bill of Rights..." hmmm?
    Let's try a little thought experiment---

    Make a list about things most important to you, or a list about 'stuff I gotta Get Done', or even a list of the things you need at the grocery store.

    What item did you put down first, and second? What items did you throw together at the bottom of the list?
    Now.... what things on those lists were most important to you, the things at the top of the list, or the things at the bottom?

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    "...illegitimate son in the Bill of Rights..." hmmm?
    Let's try a little thought experiment---

    Make a list about things most important to you, or a list about 'stuff I gotta Get Done', or even a list of the things you need at the grocery store.

    What item did you put down first, and second? What items did you throw together at the bottom of the list?
    Now.... what things on those lists were most important to you, the things at the top of the list, or the things at the bottom?
    Go look up the history of the Bill of Rights. There were more than 10 amendments proposed - what we have and call the Bill of Rights are merely the suggestions that survived. The order they are in has nothing to do with the "importance" of one amendment over those that come before or afterwards.

    Suggesting otherwise would be to tell those who oppose our form of government that we are willing to sacrifice one right over another and that all they need to do is start with the "least important" right and work their way up from there. [After I typed that sentence I remembered that in fact that's what has already happened, and that we did it to ourselves. That's why we need to stop thinking that way.]

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    In today's society, I'm willing to go there if we stop going up the list at number 10. 15, 14, and 13 may be retained. But, 17 is a definite must go.
    Why is electing senators a bad thing?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    oc for me post(s)?

    did they post using invisible ink?

    wabbit

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Workman View Post
    Washington State’s own Tri-City Herald today published an editorial that speaks about the Second Amendment and how many liberals cling to the notion that it is the illegitimate son in the Bill of Rights...
    Did speak about how many liberals are the illegitimate children of the republic for which or nation's flag stands? U.S. Constitution, Artile 4, Section 4: "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government..."
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Go look up the history of the Bill of Rights. There were more than 10 amendments proposed - what we have and call the Bill of Rights are merely the suggestions that survived. The order they are in has nothing to do with the "importance" of one amendment over those that come before or afterwards.

    Suggesting otherwise would be to tell those who oppose our form of government that we are willing to sacrifice one right over another and that all they need to do is start with the "least important" right and work their way up from there. [After I typed that sentence I remembered that in fact that's what has already happened, and that we did it to ourselves. That's why we need to stop thinking that way.]

    stay safe.
    This. Especially when my question to the answer is "I list things in order of remembrance and not order of importance. Bacon may be close to the bottom of my grocery list, but it's by far the most important item."

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Why is electing senators a bad thing?
    It eliminates one of the distinctions between the House and the Senate. The House was intended to represent the People. The Senate was designed to represent the States, which were sovereign entities at the time of the founding. They have lost a lot of that sovereignty, in part due to the change in the way we choose senators.


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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    It eliminates one of the distinctions between the House and the Senate. The House was intended to represent the People. The Senate was designed to represent the States, which were sovereign entities at the time of the founding. They have lost a lot of that sovereignty, in part due to the change in the way we choose senators.


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    Ahhhh, now I understand that part. So why the switch to elect senators?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Ahhhh, now I understand that part. So why the switch to elect senators?
    It was more "democratic."

    We never were a democracy, and (IMO) each of these little moves toward to democracy amount to a little cut, thousands of which will result in the death of our Republic. We are rapidly becoming a nation of men and not of laws.

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    Regular Member Contrarian's Avatar
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    Question vote tally

    "The vote tally shows 229 Republicans voted for the measure and seven against. On the other side of the aisle, 147 Democrats opposed the bill and 43 voted for it."


    So - there are 43 more Dems that get it and seven Cons who don't? Looks like education might be a good thing.

    Now to fix those remaining 147.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    It was more "democratic."

    We never were a democracy, and (IMO) each of these little moves toward to democracy amount to a little cut, thousands of which will result in the death of our Republic. We are rapidly becoming a nation of men and not of laws.
    So senators were appointed by governors, elected by the state houses, how were they put into office before?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    State legislatures selected them.


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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    State legislatures selected them.


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    If you notice all the higher forms of government was kept out of the hands of the average citizen. Senate was elected by the states, as was the president through the electoral collage. And the justices of the supreme court was appointed by the president and approved by the senate. The only thing that the average citizen had control of was state governments and the house.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    If you notice all the higher forms of government was kept out of the hands of the average citizen. Senate was elected by the states, as was the president through the electoral collage. And the justices of the supreme court was appointed by the president and approved by the senate. The only thing that the average citizen had control of was state governments and the house.
    That was the intentional (and, as history has shown, correct) design. The States were the sovereign nations, with the federal government being a creation of them, with the sole purpose of taking over only the functions best performed centrally. The People's House was a concession to the sentiment that the people should control the creation of the States.


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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    State legislatures selected them.


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    Ah, that's right. It has been long time since my US History classes.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    So senators were appointed by governors, elected by the state houses, how were they put into office before?
    Have you read our Constitution? It's in there...
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Have you read our Constitution? It's in there...
    It has been 15 years since I took a US History class. Give me a small break here.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    It has been 15 years since I took a US History class. Give me a small break here.
    You should keep yourself familiar with the constitution, though I am not really one to speak.

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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Ahhhh, now I understand that part. So why the switch to elect senators?
    The history I recall is that due to internal problems and squabbling, some States had periods where their legislatures did not send anyone to Washington. The State then became "under represented' in the Senate. This was deemed "unfair" to that State (note: don't you deserve not to be represented if you can't agree on whom to send?).

    We can now see the real reason for this amendment. It was to remove accountability of the Senator to the State legislatures and shift it to the "will of the people". Contrary to the original intent of the Constitution.

    I lean cautiously toward repeal of this amendment, returning the power to elect/appoint Senators to the States.
    Last edited by riverrat10k; 12-09-2011 at 10:04 AM. Reason: fixed grammer, maybe!

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverrat10k View Post
    The history I recall is that due to internal problems and squabbling, some States had periods where their legislatures did not send anyone to Washington. The State then became "under represented' in the Senate. This was deemed "unfair" to that State (note: don't you deserve not to be represented if you can't agree on whom to send?).

    We can now see the real reason for this amendment. It was to remove accountability of the Senator to the State legislatures and shift it to the "will of the people". Contrary to the original intent of the Constitution.

    I lean cautiously toward repeal of this amendment, returning the power to elect/appoint Senators to the States.
    Now that I've been reminded of history, I too think it would be better to repeal it. I think we have enough people in this country where at least 2 of them could represent us [from each state].
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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