CHP, Self-Defense apparently failed Richmonder

Sheriff said:

I'm going out on a limb here, and many of you may not agree.

I wonder if Tyler's CHP permit actually caused him and the other guy to lose their lives? Tyler pulled his gun and the punk fired first. Moving on, the punk had nothing to lose because he had already shot one person, he shot the second person at the end of the second robbery.

We're having a lot of robberies by gun in Charlottesville. So far nobody has been shot because they aren't armed and don't fight back.

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It really depends on the situation I think, at least for me. If somebody runs into the bank and I'm there carrying concealed, my first thought will be to be a good witness. I'm not just going to open fire and risk a two sided gun battle or hitting somebody else in the bank because chances are they aren't going to want to hurt anybody, but if they do something to make me think that they where going to start attacking/shooting I would feel no choice but to defend myself. I can't say exactly what would make me feel that I needed to defend myself in a situation like that, and hopefully I won't ever have to find out.

Also, according to the news report Tyler did not draw his gun, it was taken from his holster during a struggle so it could have been that they where struggling and that is when the murderer realized he had a gun and took it while attempting to rob him. Not knowing exactly what happened makes it impossible to know all we can do is wonder.

Though there's not a lot to go on, my sense, FWIW, is that the BG got inside the victim's perimeter without setting off an alarm.

To me, that's the problem of being assaulted by, basically, children. IDK if this 16 y.o. looked his age, but most people, particularly parents of (normal) teens don't go into condition yellow when a 15-16 y.o. comes up to them.

$.02

Badger Johnson said:

Though there's not a lot to go on, my sense, FWIW, is that the BG got inside the victim's perimeter without setting off an alarm.

To me, that's the problem of being assaulted by, basically, children. IDK if this 16 y.o. looked his age, but most people, particularly parents of (normal) teens don't go into condition yellow when a 15-16 y.o. comes up to them.

$.02

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At night in a parking lot - wanna bet? Of course there are other indicators, but as I have a sense of this most people I know would been beyond mid-orange and saying "stop right there" while backing off if possible or in a bladed stance.

My sphere of influence and zone indicators are decided smaller in some situations.

Condition yellow is a normal level in many circumstances is it not?

It comes down to what many have already said... LSA.

Loss of Situational Awareness.
The article stated that he got his CHP and started carrying within the last year.
I'll go out on a limb here and take a wild guess here...

Probably didn't have much training, if any...
Probably didn't do much "dry fire" training like drawing from a holster (or pocket)...
Probably didn't have a clue who Massad Ayoob is or ever hear the term "Condition Yellow"...

Very sad situation all around.
This should serve as a "wake-up call" to those folks that carry (OC or CC)
and don't practice SOMETHING on a daily basis...

"...And that's all I have to say about that..."

Situational Awareness.

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Yes,

peter nap said:

In a perfect world I'd agree, but considering the number of people who are found to be completely innocent years later, might be good to waste a little of that tax money rather than spend it on Dick Saslaw's new stationary.

Public Defenders, Corrupt Cops and brainless Commonwealth Attorneys can be a little overwhelming. Throw in a Soccer Mom or two on the Jury and a Judge ready to retire...might have to drink the Hemlock.

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+1

The Innocence Project is up to 280 exonerations now.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/

Another 16 yo arrested

A second 16-year-old male now faces charges in the killing of a customer inside a South Richmond gas station who was shot after his own handgun was taken from him during a struggle, authorities said.

Tyee Marquel Hamiel was arraigned Wednesday in Richmond Juvenile and Domestic Relations District Court on eight charges, including murder and robbery. The charges stem from Friday night’s shooting of Blaine Tyler, 48, inside the BP gas station at 1 Westover Hills Blvd. Hamiel was arrested Tuesday afternoon.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/...rged-in-2-south-richmond-killings-ar-1502468/

too close to home for my comfort.

mk4 said:

pretty sure it's lethal injection here, but i don't know if any any minor, tried and convicted as an adult, has had that sentence imposed. it might even be prohibited. i dunno...

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Choice of lethal injection or Old Sparky, needle if you refuse to choose. Re: Minors, Lee Boyd Malvo is doing multiple life-without-parole sentences.

3fgburner said:

Choice of lethal injection or Old Sparky, needle if you refuse to choose. Re: Minors, Lee Boyd Malvo is doing multiple life-without-parole sentences.

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According to Wikipedia, SCOTUS decided in Roper v. Simmons that crimes committed while under the age of 18 cannot be punished by death.

Roper v. Simmons, 543 U.S. 551 (2005) was a decision in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that it is unconstitutional to impose capital punishment for crimes committed while under the age of 18. The 5-4 decision overruled the Court's prior ruling upholding such sentences on offenders above or at the age of 16, in Stanford v. Kentucky, 492 U.S. 361 (1989), overturning statutes in 25 states that had the penalty set lower.

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TFred

Wife speaks

Grapeshot said:

A second 16-year-old male now faces charges in the killing of a customer inside a South Richmond gas station who was shot after his own handgun was taken from him during a struggle, authorities said.

Tyee Marquel Hamiel was arraigned Wednesday in Richmond Juvenile and Domestic Relations District Court on eight charges, including murder and robbery. The charges stem from Friday night’s shooting of Blaine Tyler, 48, inside the BP gas station at 1 Westover Hills Blvd. Hamiel was arrested Tuesday afternoon.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/...rged-in-2-south-richmond-killings-ar-1502468/

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Newest account here Published: December 01, 2011:

Authorities said the two suspects followed Tyler into the BP station and that Tyler's gun was taken from his holster during a struggle, even though Tyler had not drawn his weapon on the assailants.

"Tyler's handgun was taken from his person, and within 30 seconds he was shot with a handgun," Johnson said. "At this point, we cannot confirm that he was shot with his gun." He added, "We believe only one shot was fired, and that was the fatal shot."

Johnson said it was unclear whether Smith or Hamiel had been armed when they entered the store, but they are accused of robbing Tyler of his weapon.

Tyler had a concealed-carry permit, and his wife, Sophia Tyler, said he took a gun almost everywhere he went, usually in a holster that he concealed with his clothes. She said he got a gun this year for protection because of an incident years ago that she said had made him feel defenseless. She did not wish to describe the years-old incident.

"I wasn't 100 percent comfortable with it," said Sophia Tyler, referring to her husband's practice of carrying a gun. "But he felt that he needed it."

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Well, the account is sobering: the victim was followed, then disarmed. Then, knowing full well the victim was unarmed, shot and murdered him anyway. This belies the claim anti-gun activists often make in suggesting no one but cops need be armed: just give the criminals what they want and they will just go away.

Well try telling that to Tyler's wife, Sophia.

Peaceful(?) Westover Hills

riverrat10k said:

too close to home for my comfort.

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BP Station

Repeater said:

BP Station

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That's what I was just thinking, I read through this article without even realizing where this was, I just drove by here today.

situational awareness, gals & guys.
radar up, hot and sweeping 360.

Repeater said:

BP Station

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The old McDonalds on Forest Hill, along with the infamous Baskin Robbins, also lie within my sphere. Multiple armed robberies. *sigh*

mk4 said:

situational awareness, gals & guys.
radar up, hot and sweeping 360.

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Pretty sure that horse has already been beaten...
;-)

riverrat10k said:

The old McDonalds on Forest Hill, along with the infamous Baskin Robbins, also lie within my sphere. Multiple armed robberies. *sigh*

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Riverrat that BP is on Westover Hills Blvd and might as well be Belt Blvd. The reporter was wrong on the Street name. http://maps.google.com/maps?q=fores...code_result&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CB0Q8gEwAA

wait,what,huh,oh no stop the presses!!!

Someone wake up Skidmark and Citizen...
Is this a Real, First time ever, Gun Grab???

1245A Defender said:

Someone wake up Skidmark and Citizen...
Is this a Real, First time ever, Gun Grab???

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Don't think Citizen had a piece of that action - 'twas Skid and I.

While the original challenges were regarding OC gun grabs and being preemptively taken out, for the sake of discussion we'll talk about this one as if it met the criteria.

There is one major thing that you seem to be forgetting though. That being that the exercise/challenge was designed to show how exceptionally rare this type of thing is. If you care to search for the threads where these are mentioned, you'll find that it was stated (at least in mine - can't speak for Skid) that it would likely happen one day, but when a numerical relationship was made between the event and the numbers of times it did not, the resultant figure would look a lot like this: .000001% or less. That's 1 out of 10 million.....or less!

Military and LEOs and security officers were excluded, had to be in Modern times, in the USA and there was no reward posted.

Still a valid position because we can now perhaps have an example of an exception even though it was not an OCer.

If he was targeted because he was known to carry, then it does a little bit to dispel the myth of CC superiority for when/if someone plans to rob you, knows that you carry, and plans to kill you, it makes no difference how you carry - you are going to be behind the curve when the SHTF.

Also from what I heard/read (yet to be confirmed) is that the victim's gun fell out of his holster when he was fighting with the BG - presume no effective retention. The BG picked it up and shot him - if that proves true, then it definitely is NOT a gun snatch. We'll eventually get a better picture. Stay tuned.

well,,,

So,, not only do I forget or confuse who I debated with in an earlier thread about gun grabs, BUT
I completely missed the entire point of what a grab really is.
I did read this entire thread before I made my redicules assertion, and for that I am sorry.
The story doesnt even lead us to believe that he was targeted to steal the gun or just robbed of whatever he had.