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Thread: Spokane Ice Palace

  1. #1
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    Spokane Ice Palace

    Hey everyone!

    Last winter I posted about being harassed for OC at the Spokane Ice Arena at Riverfront Park by an off-duty LEO. There was talk about going back with facts in hand, but the season ended before I had a chance to. Well guess what ladies and gents, this week is the week! Thursday night (Dec 1) is $1 admission (rentals extra) so the family and I are going down to spend an hour and a half, and you can bet your sweet bippy I'm not going to take any flak for legally carrying. (In a respectful, kind manner of course). I'll have copies of the appropriate laws in-hand, and my wife and younger brother (he's 19 and can't wait to legally OC) will have instructions on what to do in case of an interaction with security. (Thank goodness for cell phone cameras that take video!) Of course all you other Spokanites are welcome to join us!

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Have a good fun night with the family. Let us know how it goes (as I am sure was the plan anyways).
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

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    I carry a spare tire, in case I have a flat. I carry life insurance, in case I die. I carry a gun, in case I need it.

  3. #3
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Hopefully with the upcomming change of "leadership" in Spokane, and the Thompson conviction, you will have a better reception.

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    Regular Member SnarlyWino's Avatar
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    country.hacker

    You know I would love to join you, but the wife has already made plans for me that evening. I would love to participate with a little more notice the next time though. Can't wait to hear how it goes.

    Have Fun!

    Ryan
    Keep Calm and Carry On,

    Snarly

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    I am out of the state or I would join you.

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    Thanks for the encouraging words everyone, I realize it was really late notice. Will let you know how it goes, and maybe we can plan more in advance next time. :-)

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    Hey Country.hacker.

    I was the one who asked if you were on opencarry. I haven't been on here recently (and was more of a reader than poster when I was) I voiced my opinion to the two security guards/officers? as I left. They informed me that it was illegal to carry a gun anywhere you had to pay a fee. My daughter asked me why I was talking back to the officers. Hard thing to explain to a 7 year old sometimes.

    Thanks for coming out! Hope your interaction went well.
    Last edited by tobyjones; 12-02-2011 at 01:03 AM.

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    Hey Tobyjones, thanks for the words of encouragement! I apologize if I didn't seem too friendly or talkative when you talked to me tonight, I find I get a pretty good adrenaline rush when accosted by security guards and the like, and am not too talkative for a bit afterwards. Hopefully we'll both make it to a BBQ/gettogether some time and can actually get acquainted. :-)

    So yeah, it actually went pretty well tonight. I had been skating with my family for about half an hour or so when the two security guards that work the Riverfront Park area called me over. The one who did all the talking was actually a LOT more polite and professional than the jerk who talked to me last year, informed me that while they weren't/couldn't do anything about me carrying today, first thing tomorrow they're going to call the city lawyer and confirm their theory that "as soon as you pay for an event (like ice skating) you waive your right to carry", even though it's a city-owned park. He asked me (emphasis on the asked) to disarm, and I politely and respectfully declined, then went back to skating with my daughter. Pretty much as soon as I skated away from the security guards Tobyjones approached and asked if I was from this site, so I chatted with him for a little bit. The two security guards stood in the bleachers for the entire time I was skating, I guess they had to justify their salaries. :-)

    Anyway, should be interesting to hear what the city lawyer says. Any of you guys have any input on this theory? I haven't done any searching yet, but will do so as soon as I finish this post.

    Hope you all have a good night!

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    IMHO the only thing you did wrong was carry a single stack 1911. I couldn't tell if that was an extra mag or a leatherman on your belt. I carry (usually concealed) about 80% of the time but I didn't have my Ruger SR9 on me tonight. (I was afraid I would fall on it) I tried sending an email to Jeff Baily who is listed on the Riverfront park website as the head of security but it bounced back as undeliverable. Anyways. Thank you for doing your part to advance the cause of liberty and freedom.

    I took my 4 year old skating last week and carried her most of the time. My arms were sore for the next two days.
    Last edited by tobyjones; 12-02-2011 at 02:53 AM.

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran ak56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by country.hacker View Post
    at "as soon as you pay for an event (like ice skating) you waive your right to carry"
    No such law in Washington State.
    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.


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    Regular Member DCKilla's Avatar
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    Out of curiosity, I looked up the website for the Ice Palace. I was a little confused if it was public or private. Low and behold, it was as public as any other park in the state. Don't you love preemption?
    http://spokaneparks.org/

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    As is written in other posts on this site, Spokane is ignoring state preemption concerning parks. Yes the skating rink is city run, therefore not private. There is also a unresolved problem with the police training bulletin that needs to be straitened out.
    I will start another thread to get people together to go before the city council. This will happen after the new mayor and council members are seated. There is still a recount going on between Rush and Allen. Hopefully we will get these issues taken care of early next year.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Lammo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by country.hacker View Post
    Hey Tobyjones, thanks for the words of encouragement! I apologize if I didn't seem too friendly or talkative when you talked to me tonight, I find I get a pretty good adrenaline rush when accosted by security guards and the like, and am not too talkative for a bit afterwards. Hopefully we'll both make it to a BBQ/gettogether some time and can actually get acquainted. :-)

    So yeah, it actually went pretty well tonight. I had been skating with my family for about half an hour or so when the two security guards that work the Riverfront Park area called me over. The one who did all the talking was actually a LOT more polite and professional than the jerk who talked to me last year, informed me that while they weren't/couldn't do anything about me carrying today, first thing tomorrow they're going to call the city lawyer and confirm their theory that "as soon as you pay for an event (like ice skating) you waive your right to carry", even though it's a city-owned park. He asked me (emphasis on the asked) to disarm, and I politely and respectfully declined, then went back to skating with my daughter. Pretty much as soon as I skated away from the security guards Tobyjones approached and asked if I was from this site, so I chatted with him for a little bit. The two security guards stood in the bleachers for the entire time I was skating, I guess they had to justify their salaries. :-)

    Anyway, should be interesting to hear what the city lawyer says. Any of you guys have any input on this theory? I haven't done any searching yet, but will do so as soon as I finish this post.

    Hope you all have a good night!
    FWIW, I can see how they might try to argue that they can restrict the possession of firearms out on the ice (or on the Carousel or on any of the other rides) but it couldn't be simply due to having paid a fee. There would have to be notice given at the ticket booth. Not saying I agree with the argument (or that I would personally make it); just playing Devil's Advocate and trying to anticipate what they might say (darn that law school that taught me to look at an issue from all sides! :-) ).
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    I just got off the phone with Jeff Bailey the head of security for Riverfront park. First I would like to say that he was very pleasant and polite. He admitted that the officers needed some education on RCW 9.14.300 and that you do not give up your right to carry a firearm just because you pay an entrance fee to the ice palace. He did try and make the argument that carrying while ice skating "warrants alarm for the safety of other persons" (RCW 9.41.270) because you might fall and have an accidental discharge. He admitted that it was a shaky argument and he was aware of Seattles appeal regarding guns in parks to the 9th circuit court.

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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    I know violating the state preemption is a misdemeanor, but does it rise to a breach of the peace if the person (police officer or otherwise) who doesn't know the law threatens violence?

    Then there's federal law; Washington runs on British common law principles, and I can't find anything anywhere saying you can't make a citizen's arrest for a federal crime. But if a lone officer puts his hand on his gun (or draws it) while violating civil, statutory or constitutional rights, that is definitely a threat of deadly force making his act a felony-level offense (police immunity probably doesn't apply to violations of a law only a public official, such as a cop, can commit). The same applies if two public officials, acting together, make simple verbal demands that violate rights. 18USC241 and 18USC242, in other words.

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    That's really cool news tobyjones, I emailed Jeff today because I'd like to have proof in writing about their policy. Incidentally, Jeff is the guy that was so rude to me last year, kind of funny that he's now head of security. :-P

    Difdi, not sure where you're coming from, at no time during either encounter was I ever threatened with violence. I don't believe these security guards were even armed, unless they were concealing. If you were merely going off on a tangent, I apologize. :-) Just wanted to set the record straight regarding these two officers, misguided and mis-informed maybe, but polite and professional.

  17. #17
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    CH: It may be the guy (Jeff/) that gave you a hard time last year was corrected (by your confrontation with him) in his understanding...After all, he did know about the Seattle Parks court case result. (In which case, congrats are in order for bringing one more into line with the law.)

    Anyway, with the new powers that will be in next year, maybe we can finally get Spokane's city ordinance in compliance with state law. The clowns that are in charge now probably wouldn't even listen to the court, if you did take them to court.

    If it wasn't 150 miles for us, my wife and I both like to skate...sorry we couldn't be with you, it would be fun. Both to skate and correct the in"security" folks perception.
    Last edited by hermannr; 12-03-2011 at 08:02 PM.

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    Received an email from Jeff, the head of security for the whole park. He asked if we could meet in person to discuss "the actions of parks staff and the interpretation of the law", or at least talk on the phone...wish I lived close to town, I probably won't be able to meet with him in person any time in the next week. I'll let you guys know how the phone call goes.

  19. #19
    Regular Member SnarlyWino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by country.hacker View Post
    Received an email from Jeff, the head of security for the whole park. He asked if we could meet in person to discuss "the actions of parks staff and the interpretation of the law", or at least talk on the phone...wish I lived close to town, I probably won't be able to meet with him in person any time in the next week. I'll let you guys know how the phone call goes.
    If you have the opportunity to meet in person, I would love to join you as I walk through that park on nearly a daily basis.
    Keep Calm and Carry On,

    Snarly

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  20. #20
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by country.hacker View Post
    Received an email from Jeff, the head of security for the whole park. He asked if we could meet in person to discuss "the actions of parks staff and the interpretation of the law", or at least talk on the phone...wish I lived close to town, I probably won't be able to meet with him in person any time in the next week. I'll let you guys know how the phone call goes.
    When you do talk to him, ask him one question for me please. How many felons does he know of/has heard of, that openly carry a firearm?

    The obvious answer we would like to hear you report is that an OC is no danger to anyone as long as it stays in it's holster, and should be treated just like someone that wants to wear a hat, or not....
    Last edited by hermannr; 12-05-2011 at 07:39 PM.

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    Thanks Snarly, I'll definitely let you know if I can work something out. I'm coming into town Wednesday for a meeting, might be able to chisel out an hour then.

    Hermannr, judging from the interactions I've had with them before, I think they're less concerned about me maliciously shooting someone, and more concerned about an accidental discharge. Both times they've said something about "If I fell and my gun went off..." That's probably going to be the reason they tell me, however I happen to know that people have complained about me carrying to them, and they probably feel the need to do "something" to justify their existance.

  22. #22
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by country.hacker View Post
    Thanks Snarly, I'll definitely let you know if I can work something out. I'm coming into town Wednesday for a meeting, might be able to chisel out an hour then.

    Hermannr, judging from the interactions I've had with them before, I think they're less concerned about me maliciously shooting someone, and more concerned about an accidental discharge. Both times they've said something about "If I fell and my gun went off..." That's probably going to be the reason they tell me, however I happen to know that people have complained about me carrying to them, and they probably feel the need to do "something" to justify their existance.
    Tell him the easy way, (also is the correct way): Just tell someone that asked about someone carrying: "It is perfectly legal for a law abiding citizen to be armed for his own SD". Works, and it is really simple.

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    Even if he is concerned about an accidental discharge, I'd let him know the law does not state an exception for that. Also if he wanted to go get any Glock, XD, or any commonly carried pistol and wanted to bang it on the ice all day long, I'd pay for it if he got his "accidental discharge".

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