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professor gun · Dec 1, 2011

BROKENSPROKET said:
I aggree with you, but Hubert Hoffman says that AB69 is barely worth the paper its printed on.

I agree with Brokensproket and others that this is a big improvement over prior self defense law in WI.

johnny amish · Dec 1, 2011

bnhcomputing said:
Without stand your ground, it's barely worth the paper it's printed on. This isn't a BIG step at all, it's a very tiny one.

I could not agree more. With that being said it 235 years to get in this country where we are at today, it will probably take that and then some to get back to a nation that cherish liberties and freedom.

detroit_fan · Dec 1, 2011

scm54449 said:
Unfortunately, you have posted in the Wisconsin forum. For better or worse, Michigan law is not the "law of the land" in Wisconsin.

I was replying to davegran asking if Michigan residents had civil immunity. When I said "we" I was referring to MI residents, sorry if I was not clear.

Nutczak · Dec 2, 2011

There was no duty to retreat before this new law.............

So, they changed what now?

Captain Nemo · Dec 2, 2011

Nutczac: I agree. There never has been a statute that requires that a person retreat from danger. The closest any come is the statement in the defense of self or others statute that implies that the minimum force required to defuse the situation should be used. That statement is of course subjective. The only thing that specific "stand your ground" language in AB69 would have brought to the table is not needing to prove we or a third party was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. There would be a presumption of innocense.

SovereignAxe · Dec 2, 2011

As someone that has a stand your ground law, I would like to congratualate you Wisconsonites. This should be law in all 50 states. No one should ever be required to run and hide from an attacker.

E6chevron · Dec 3, 2011

davegran said:
Not only "in your home", but in your "Dwelling".My driveway happens to be 900 feet long.... So if my wife walks out to the mailbox and somebody attacks her, she can pull out her concealed weapon and defend herself with immunity. That is close to "Stand Your Ground".

As has already been pointed out, the crucial factor in receiving "stand your ground" treatment or even "your home is your castle" privilege is the requirement in the statute created by AB69 for the bad guy to either be in the process of or having completed: "unlawfully and forcibly entering"

I do not think that a person (bad guy) who walked across a property line, or walked or drove up a driveway would meet this requirement.

davegran · Dec 3, 2011

E6chevron said:
As has already been pointed out, the crucial factor in receiving "stand your ground" treatment or even "your home is your castle" privilege is the requirement in the statute created by AB69 for the bad guy to either be in the process of or having completed: "unlawfully and forcibly entering"

I do not think that a person (bad guy) who walked across a property line, or walked or drove up a driveway would meet this requirement.

Then why was "driveway" included in the definition of "Dwelling?

895.07 (1)(h) “Dwelling” means any premises or portion of a premises
that is used as a home or a place of residence and that part of the
lot or site on which the dwelling is situated that is devoted to resi-
dential use. “Dwelling” includes other existing structures on the
immediate residential premises such as driveways, sidewalks,
swimming pools, terraces, patios, fences, porches, garages, and
basements.

Herr Heckler Koch · Dec 3, 2011

davegran said:
Then why was "driveway" included in the definition of "Dwelling?

Because somebody's too ignorant to use curtilage as other states do.

davegran · Dec 3, 2011

Herr Heckler Koch said:
Because somebody's too ignorant to use curtilage as other states do.

No... "curtilage" would have been much more restrictive.

cur·ti·lage (kûr

tl-

j)n. Law The enclosed area immediately surrounding a house or dwelling.

Herr Heckler Koch · Dec 3, 2011

davegran said:
No... "curtilage" would have been much more restrictive.

You are a victim of the dictionary fallacy.

As a legal term of art, it is the tended area in which one lives. A fence is not an essential element but illustrative of one's curtilage. A synonym might be 'grounds', as the groomed area within the walls of a manor house that excepts the agricultural lands. A barn stands on the curtilage but not a cornfield.

davegran · Dec 3, 2011

Herr Heckler Koch said:
You are a victim of the dictionary fallacy.

As a legal term of art, it is the tended area in which one lives. A fence is not an essential element but illustrative of one's curtilage. A synonym might be 'grounds', as the groomed area within the walls of a manor house that excepts the agricultural lands. A barn stands on the curtilage but not a cornfield.

I supplied the legal definition I found. That's what the "n Law" means. Do you have a different citation?

Flipper · Dec 3, 2011

what is the meaning of forcibly entering? bad guy coming in an unlocked door...yes or no

Herr Heckler Koch · Dec 3, 2011

The dictionary fallacy is the fallacy that there is an exclusive precise meaning

http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/curtilage/

uslegal.com said:
Curtilage Law & Legal Definition

Curtilage is the immediate, enclosed area surrounding a house or dwelling. The U.S. Supreme Court noted in United States v. Dunn, 480 U.S. 294 (1987), that curtilage is the area immediately surrounding a residence that "harbors the `intimate activity associated with the sanctity of a man's home and the privacies of life.'' Curtilage, like a house, is protected under the fourth amendment from "unreasonable searches and seizures.''

Determining the boundaries of curtilage is imprecise and subject to controversy. Four of the factors used to dtermine whether to classify the area as curtilage include:

1) The distance from the home to the place claimed to be curtilage (the closer the home is, the more likely to be curtilage);

2) Whether the area claimed to be curtilage is included within an enclosure surrounding the home;

3) The nature of use to which the area is put (if it is the site of domestic activities, it is more likely to be a part of the curtilage); and

4) The steps taken by the resident to protect the area from observation by people passing by (shielding from public view will favor finding the portion is curtilage).

Notice that in factors, enclosure is not essential.

There is a Wikipedia article "Curtilage" also. Lay folk should always consult a good primer of a new and unfamiliar topic. I do.

There is the usage of Wisconsin Statutes Subsection 943.13 as negation predicate to the subject open-land.

davegran · Dec 3, 2011

Herr Heckler Koch said:
http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/curtilage/

Originally Posted by uslegal.com Curtilage Law & Legal Definition

Curtilage is the immediate, enclosed area surrounding a house or dwelling. The U.S. Supreme Court noted in United States v. Dunn, 480 U.S. 294 (1987), that curtilage is the area immediately surrounding a residence that "harbors the `intimate activity associated with the sanctity of a man's home and the privacies of life.'' Curtilage, like a house, is protected under the fourth amendment from "unreasonable searches and seizures.''

Determining the boundaries of curtilage is imprecise and subject to controversy. Four of the factors used to dtermine whether to classify the area as curtilage include:

1) The distance from the home to the place claimed to be curtilage (the closer the home is, the more likely to be curtilage);

2) Whether the area claimed to be curtilage is included within an enclosure surrounding the home;

3) The nature of use to which the area is put (if it is the site of domestic activities, it is more likely to be a part of the curtilage); and

4) The steps taken by the resident to protect the area from observation by people passing by (shielding from public view will favor finding the portion is curtilage).

Click to expand...

Notice that in factors, enclosure is not essential.

There is a Wikipedia article "Curtilage" also. Lay folk should always consult a good primer of a new and unfamiliar topic. I do.

There is the usage of Wisconsin Statutes Subsection 943.13 as negation predicate to the subject open-land.

So by spelling out the definition of Dwelling as they did

895.07 (1)(h) “Dwelling” means any premises or portion of a premises
that is used as a home or a place of residence and that part of the
lot or site on which the dwelling is situated that is devoted to resi-
dential use. “Dwelling” includes other existing structures on the
immediate residential premises such as driveways, sidewalks,
swimming pools, terraces, patios, fences, porches, garages, and
basements.

they eliminated the imprecision and controversy of using a Middle English, from Old French word, "curtilage". I applaud them for not confounding us and complicating the law with unnecessary lawyer-speak....

Herr Heckler Koch · Dec 4, 2011

I applaud you for moving beyond the fallacy of reading a dictionary as a word textbook or instruction manual.

It is disappointing that Wisconsin must compulsively climb the same learning curve that other states have already surmounted.

E6chevron · Dec 4, 2011

davegran said:
Then why was "driveway" included in the definition of "Dwelling?

The definition of "Dwelling" comes from section 895.07 titled "Claims against contractors and suppliers." This section was created in April of 2005.

That definition of "Dwelling" was not intended to be a good foundation for a Castle Doctrine section 895.62 or "no duty to retreat" statute subsection: 939.48(1m). These two new pieces of statute come from 11AB69.

MilProGuy · Dec 4, 2011

Gomir said:
Governor Walker to sign the Castle Doctrine Bill on Wednesday, Dec. 7th!!!!!

Congrats, Gomir!

A step in the right direction is always a time to celebrate. :monkey

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