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Thread: OC Question

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    OC Question

    Hello, I usually CC, but starting this summer I plan on OCing, especially when Im doing things like hiking or mountain biking. I am having trouble understanding one thing though, I want to use the trails in Boulder County, and their website says carrying a gun is not allowed on Boulder County open space except as mandated by Title 18, Article 12 of Colorado Revised Statutes. Article 12 only seems to talk about when it is okay to carry a concealed weapon. So does that mean on Boulder County open space that you can only carry a gun concealed or face their $300 fine? I cant really CC on a mountain bike. If anyone could help me figure this out it would be much appreciated.

    Here are the links to the open space website where it mentions the no guns, and the link to title 18 article 12.
    http://www.bouldercounty.org/play/re...esandregs.aspx
    http://www.is.mines.edu/hr/Administr...edStatutes.pdf

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    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    The language "mandated by " Title 18, Section 12 of CRS's appears to distinguish between LAWFUL possession as defined in same CRS's such as OC, and permitted CC - and CRIMINAL behavior such as poaching, vandalism, and other destructive mischief aimed at wildlife or other persons.

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    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Well, I can't figure out why they would link you to that except to confuse and discourage, then again this is Boulder, that may be the point.

    Regardless, they can't ban open carry unless they clearly post it there at the trailhead, just like any other public park.

    I assume that when you say that you have been CC in the past you have been doing so with a permit (if not please don't tell me). If you have a permit and are open carrying there, even if you are stopped by whatever enforcement is found there, the permit should get you out of whatever it is that they think you are in.

    Did I make any sense there?

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    Ya you made sense James. I guess Ill just scout out the trails and their signs. I guess the question really is, can a county ban open carry in open space? I wouldnt think they could, just as I dont believe a city could ban guns in a public park. I do have a permit by the way, I just dont want to have to find a way to conceal, but then again, I dont want a Boulderite liberal to call on me and have to fight my way through the $300 fine they threaten to stick you with. Thanks for the responses.

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    Did some more research and this is what Ive concluded.
    CRS 29-11.7-103 says that local jurisdictions cannot regulate firearms, only the state can. However, CRS 29-11.7-104 gives local governments the power to ban open carrying of a firearm as long as they have signs posted in the area in which open carrying is not allowed.
    So, it all depends on whether there are signs in the open space and on the trail that say you cannot open carry. In that case, you can only carry concealed.

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    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deserteagle8338 View Post
    Did some more research and this is what Ive concluded.
    CRS 29-11.7-103 says that local jurisdictions cannot regulate firearms, only the state can. However, CRS 29-11.7-104 gives local governments the power to ban open carrying of a firearm as long as they have signs posted in the area in which open carrying is not allowed.
    So, it all depends on whether there are signs in the open space and on the trail that say you cannot open carry. In that case, you can only carry concealed.
    That's it precisely. You found the government's loophole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    That's it precisely. You found the government's loophole.
    Also, note Boulder muni code on Open Space says an affirmative defense is something like "engaged in self-defense in accordance with state statutes". IANAL, but IMHO, if you are OCing for self-defense, particularly in bear/mountain lion country, you are acting within the law. If the place is well signed, you'll probably be out of luck for OC.

    Other discussion here:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-OC-in-Boulder
    Last edited by mahkagari; 12-02-2011 at 05:13 PM.

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    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    What exactly constitutes the referenced "open space" ? Is this not PUBLIC LAND under the control of Boulder County which is a subdivision of the State of Colorado ? Concealed carry is not the constitutionally protected right to bear arms cited in Article II, Section 13, and NO PERMIT is required for the exercise of that right.

    The lead paragraph on that cited Boulder County web-site states that rules/regulations governing "open spaces" are intended to PROTECT WILDLIFE, and members of the public. Also mentioned is that such rules/regulations will be posted at the kiosk located at any respective entrances, and that rules/regs may vary from location to location.

    If Coloradoans have to have a CHP in order to exercise their right to LAWFULLY bear arms, things are no better here than in Texas where you MUST have a CHL to carry a handgun in Texas State Park areas.
    Last edited by rushcreek2; 12-02-2011 at 06:15 PM.

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    Well this is the thing. Colorado is not really an open carry state. The state does not prohibit it, but they did not make a law saying open carry is okay. In fact, Colorado law allows local jurisdictions (Boulder County) the right to deny open carry. For concealed carry however, the state of Colorado specifically says it is allowed with a permit and NO local jurisdiction can do anything about it.
    Therefore a city or county can say no open carry because: 1. It is their right 2. There is no state law saying open carry is allowed and cannot be regulated by cities/counties.
    If Boulder County open space places signs that say no open carry, then it is illegal to open carry there based on the municipal code. The fact that it is public land doesnt matter because the state does not regulate or mandate open carry. Kind of disappointing to learn this. It makes it very hard to open carry in Metro Denver because many cities do not allow open carry and it is our responsibility to notice their no gun signs or face a penalty from that city. At least they cant touch concealed carriers.

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    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deserteagle8338 View Post
    At least they cant touch concealed carriers.
    Love that $150 tax to exercise a right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rushcreek2 View Post
    What exactly constitutes the referenced "open space" ?
    It's a specific category. Like "park", "lake", "reservoir", "forest", "rec area", "wilderness", etc. A city park will have a different category with its own codes versus open space. It will also be managed by different divisions. I.e. a city park is different than a county open space, though prima facie, it may look the same.

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    Last edited by Shooter McGee; 12-05-2011 at 08:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deserteagle8338 View Post
    Well this is the thing. Colorado is not really an open carry state. The state does not prohibit it, but they did not make a law saying open carry is okay. In fact, Colorado law allows local jurisdictions (Boulder County) the right to deny open carry. For concealed carry however, the state of Colorado specifically says it is allowed with a permit and NO local jurisdiction can do anything about it.
    Therefore a city or county can say no open carry because: 1. It is their right 2. There is no state law saying open carry is allowed and cannot be regulated by cities/counties.
    If Boulder County open space places signs that say no open carry, then it is illegal to open carry there based on the municipal code. The fact that it is public land doesnt matter because the state does not regulate or mandate open carry. Kind of disappointing to learn this. It makes it very hard to open carry in Metro Denver because many cities do not allow open carry and it is our responsibility to notice their no gun signs or face a penalty from that city. At least they cant touch concealed carriers.
    Shooter Mcgee pretty much covered it.
    Quick question though.
    Why would there be a law stating OC is legal? Laws are not made to legalize they are made to make things illegal.
    Colorado Gun Owners - COGO
    http://www.ColoradoGunOwners.com

    A discussion forum for Colorado Gun Owners.

    Colorado Firearm law.
    http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/colorado/
    Lexis Nexis: Colorado law pertaining to firearms.
    Title 18, Article 12

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    Last edited by Shooter McGee; 12-05-2011 at 08:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau View Post
    Why would there be a law stating OC is legal? Laws are not made to legalize they are made to make things illegal.
    Historically speaking, this is true in a freedom-oriented society such as ours. Our goal isn't to restrict freedom, but only to quell activities which are seriously contrary to the public, either individually or as a whole. Thus, murder, mayhem, rape, pillage, and plunder are generally frowned upon, and 95% of our laws fall into these categories.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Historically speaking, this is true in a freedom-oriented society such as ours. Our goal isn't to restrict freedom, but only to quell activities which are seriously contrary to the public, either individually or as a whole. Thus, murder, mayhem, rape, pillage, and plunder are generally frowned upon, and 95% of our laws fall into these categories.
    Pillage and plunder are my two fav pastimes.
    Colorado Gun Owners - COGO
    http://www.ColoradoGunOwners.com

    A discussion forum for Colorado Gun Owners.

    Colorado Firearm law.
    http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/colorado/
    Lexis Nexis: Colorado law pertaining to firearms.
    Title 18, Article 12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter McGee View Post
    not true at all. not even close really. read this. read the whole thing.

    -In 2003, the State Legislature and then Governor Owens deemed that the power to address gun violence in Colorado through laws SHALL NOT be in the domain of the affected communities, rather it should rest only in the hands of the state. By this legislation (SB03-25), ALL local firearm ordinances have been declared unenforceable.

    –C.R.S 29-11.7-101. Legislative Declaration: (1) The general assembly hereby finds that: (a) Section 3 of article II of the State Constitution, the article referred to as the state bill of rights, declares that all persons have certain inalienable rights, which include the right to defend their lives and liberties; (b) Section 13 of article II of the State Constitution protects the fundamental right of a person to keep and bear arms and implements section 3 of article II of the state constitution; (c) The general assembly recognizes a duty to protect and defend the fundamental civil rights set forth in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this subsection (1); (d) There exists a widespread inconsistency among jurisdictions within the state with regard to firearms regulations; (e) This inconsistency among local government laws regulating lawful firearm possession and ownership has extraterritorial impact on state citizens and the general public by subjecting them to criminal and civil penalties in some jurisdictions for conduct wholly lawful in other jurisdictions; (f) Inconsistency among local governments of laws regulating the possession and ownership of firearms results in persons being treated differently under the law solely on the basis of where they reside, and a person's residence in a particular county or city or city and county is not a rational classification when it is the basis for denial of equal treatment under the law; (g) This inconsistency places citizens in the position of not knowing when they may be violating the local laws and therefore being unable to avoid violating the law and becoming subject to criminal and other penalties. (2) Based on the findings specified in subsection (1) of this section, the general assembly concludes that: (a) The regulation of firearms is a matter of statewide concern;(b) It is necessary to provide statewide laws concerning the possession and ownership of a firearm to ensure that law-abiding persons are not unfairly placed in the position of unknowingly committing crimes involving firearms.
    –C.R.S 29-11.7-101(2): refers to the regulation of firearms as a matter of statewide concern and declares a need for statewide uniformity of regulation in the area of firearms. That statute also declares that inconsistency among local jurisdictions has an extraterritorial impact on state citizens and the general public.Id.

    the only way boulder or anywhere else for that matter(besides denver city and county, 2004 meyers decision) could ban OC in city limits is to post it as so at EVERY public entrance to the city. every road, highway, trail, creek, ect....it simply cannot be done. hell, just the other day i walked thru a cross walk at 30th and arapahoe in boulder with my .45 at 9 o'clock and walked past a law dawg stopped at the light at my 9 o'clock and nothing. i saw him look right at my piece as it was only about 10 feet from his face. nothing. you know why? cause there is nothing he could've done. just because state law doesn't say you CAN OC doesn't mean it is prohibited. i could argue that there is no state law saying i CAN'T OC so therefore i shall.

    careful with the misinformation.
    This original topic was about the legality of Boulder County banning open carry on its trails. And according to this law, if they put a no gun sign at the trail head for example and I walk past it, I would be breaking the law.



    29-11.7-104. Regulation - carrying - posting.
    A local government may enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area within the local government's jurisdiction. If a local government enacts an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area, the local government shall post signs at the public entrances to the building or specific area informing persons that the open carrying of firearms is prohibited in the building or specific area.
    That doesnt sound like misinformation to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter McGee View Post
    i could argue that there is no state law saying i CAN'T OC so therefore i shall.
    Actually, there is a state law saying you CANT OC where a city doesnt want you to. Its posted above. So you should be careful with the misinformation.

    You walking through a crosswalk in Boulder is an excellent example of this stated law. There was not a no gun sign posted at the crosswalk, therefore you were not breaking the law. Although the state law does stop local governments from enforcing gun laws, the state government gave them the power to ban open carry within its jurisdiction with posted signs.
    Last edited by Deserteagle8338; 12-05-2011 at 06:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau View Post
    Why would there be a law stating OC is legal? Laws are not made to legalize they are made to make things illegal.
    State law here says CC is legal with a permit and the state law will override any city law that tries to regulate CC.
    There is no law saying OC is legal and is pre-exempted by state law, so a city can stop you from OCing with a no gun sign (CRS29-11.7-104)because there is no law for the state to pre-exempt.
    However, because CC is in the law and is pre-exmpted by state law, if a city places a no gun sign in their park, it cannot apply to CCers.
    That is the importance of putting things like this in law.

    In simple terms, laws are made to legalize too. Legalizing CC at the state level makes it not possible for cities to regulate CC.
    Last edited by Deserteagle8338; 12-05-2011 at 06:59 PM.

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    Last edited by Shooter McGee; 12-05-2011 at 08:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter McGee View Post
    ALL LOCAL GUN ORDINANCES MEAN NOTHING AND CANNOT BE ENFORCED. the only areas where prohibited must have proper signage posted at EVERY public entrance. i think you are the only one here who agrees with yourself.
    You just proved my point and contradicted yourself. You try saying that state law doesnt allow any city to ban open carry, but here you are agreeing with me that cities can ban open carry, but you wont admit you are agreeing with me.

    Lets say you go to the city rec center and there is a no gun sign. You, since you think city laws mean nothing, will continue carrying inside and will be ticketed. I will not carry past there because state law says cities can ban open carry with signs. What do you not understand?
    Last edited by Deserteagle8338; 12-05-2011 at 07:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter McGee View Post
    if you can't even get that right how can anyone listen to anything else you write?
    Guess I can say the same since you fail to use proper grammar and writing skills. Not to mention the fact that nobody can "listen" to words on a screen. They have to be read, not listened to.
    Last edited by Deserteagle8338; 12-05-2011 at 07:22 PM.

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    Last edited by Shooter McGee; 12-05-2011 at 08:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter McGee View Post
    deserteagle writes-"This original topic was about the legality of Boulder County banning open carry on its trails. And according to this law, if they put a no gun sign at the trail head for example and I walk past it, I would be breaking the law."

    duh!! i very clearly stated that in my previous post.

    deserteagle writes-"Actually, there is a state law saying you CANT OC where a city doesnt want you to. Its posted above. So you should be careful with the misinformation."

    please cite this statute

    desert eagle writes-"You walking through a crosswalk in Boulder is an excellent example of this stated law. There was not a no gun sign posted at the crosswalk, therefore you were not breaking the law. Although the state law does stop local governments from enforcing gun laws, the state government gave them the power to ban open carry within its jurisdiction with posted signs."

    again, duh! they can ban certain areas and buildings. that is all. areas and buildings.

    deserteagle writes-"However, because CC is in the law and is pre-exmpted by state law, if a city places a no gun sign in their park, it cannot apply to CCers."

    ALL GUN LAWS ARE PREEMPTED BY STATE LAW, not just CC.
    Let me get this straight. You say no city can make and enforce gun laws. But you also say that cities can make and enforce gun laws because they can ban open carry where they want to. You are contradicting yourself.

    Once again,

    29-11.7-104. Regulation - carrying - posting.
    A local government may enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area within the local government's jurisdiction. If a local government enacts an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area, the local government shall post signs at the public entrances to the building or specific area informing persons that the open carrying of firearms is prohibited in the building or specific area.
    That doesnt sound like misinformation to me.

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    Last edited by Shooter McGee; 12-05-2011 at 08:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter McGee View Post
    deserteagle, go back and re-read what you wrote in the first post i replied to with a quote. it was so chock full of lies and misinformation. pre-expempted!? hahahahaha. done.
    So you are going to keep attacking me rather than admitting your contradiction that you use to argue with me? Your quote that you are so proud of accomplished nothing. If all local gun laws cannot be enforced because of state law, see what happens when you walk past a city's no-gun sign while you are open carrying. Cities CAN ban open carry! They cannot ban CC.

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