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Thread: doj working to meet 45 day requirement

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    Regular Member oliverclotheshoff's Avatar
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    doj working to meet 45 day requirement

    http://www.wrn.com/2011/12/doj-has-a...ncealed-carry/

    story says between 30 and 35 employees working on the permits
    Last edited by oliverclotheshoff; 12-02-2011 at 11:54 AM.
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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    They won't meet the deadline for all applications, but they do have a case to petition the court for an extension.

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    Regular Member xenophon's Avatar
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    That many people, and only cranking out like 500 to 600 a day.

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    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Wisconsin is not a Right-To-Work state

    Quote Originally Posted by xenophon View Post
    That many people, and only cranking out like 500 to 600 a day.
    So, what'ya think, union goons dragging their feet, maliciously compliant, or overburdened civil servants cruelly denied overtime needed to finish on time?

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xenophon View Post
    That many people, and only cranking out like 500 to 600 a day.

    Half of that 35 are not part of that department, but help out when they can.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Heck, I'd drive over to Madistan 3 days a week to process applications if they'd
    a) pay me
    b) let me do a 10 or 12 hour day so the drive is worth it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Heck, I'd drive over to Madistan 3 days a week to process applications if they'd
    a) pay me
    b) let me do a 10 or 12 hour day so the drive is worth it.

    pssssst.... <whisper> I'll give you $100 if you can find mine and get it done ASAP. I mailed on the 1st, so look at the bottom of the pile. <whisper/>
    Last edited by safcrkr; 12-02-2011 at 09:23 PM.

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    500-600 a day only if you assume they are working 7 days a week.

    Quote Originally Posted by xenophon View Post
    That many people, and only cranking out like 500 to 600 a day.
    If you assume that they are only working weekdays and not holidays, it comes out to 940 a day. I figured that they did not start to recieve the mass of permits until the third of November, so that is 17 work days including the 28th. We had permits numbered in the 16,000 issued on the 28th of November. If they are working 8 hour days and have an average of thirty people working those 8 hours, it comes to just a hair less than 4 permits per hour.

    They have about 18000 permits to go for the first couple of days. At 4 permits per person per hour, that is 4,500 manhours of work. Say 30 people, that is 150 hours per person. The DOJ had 20 days (29 November to 17 December, including weekends to meet the deadline. Each person would have to be putting in 8 hour days, 7 days a week to meet it.

    It is possible that they have been putting in overtime and weekends on this already. Does anyone know?
    Last edited by ccwinstructor; 12-04-2011 at 10:36 AM. Reason: Corrected math to allow for first days mail delay.

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    Regular Member markush's Avatar
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    600 a day average (that's what i get) or 940 (your figure) for every work day still works out to an average of 600 a day since the 1st of Nov. There's different ways of getting to the same final number...be it one person doing 600 a day or 60 people doing 10 a day it's all the same to me. In the end all I care about is how long it takes them to get to the 30,000 permits issued area. That's where I figure mine will be.
    Last edited by markush; 12-04-2011 at 10:55 AM.

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    I think there is ZERO chance a office worker working for the state putting in overtime.

  12. #12
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Fourty-five days expires on Monday, 19 December for some

    I have my USPS delivery certification receipt in hand. Tomorrow I will pay the fee for a copy of my personal check for the CWL application fee.

    Will there be a administrative rule in place for 2011 Act 35 Section 100. Nonstatutory provisions Subsection (2) Notwithstanding section 175.60 (9) (b) of the statutes, as created by this act, beginning on the effective date of this subsection and ending on the first day of the 5th month beginning after the effective date of this subsection, the department of justice shall, as soon as practicable and without delay, but no longer than 45 days, after receiving a complete application under section 175.60 (7) of the statutes, as created by this act, for a license to carry a concealed weapon, do one of the following: (a) Issue the license and promptly send the licensee his or her license document by 1st class mail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccwinstructor View Post
    It is possible that they have been putting in overtime and weekends on this already. Does anyone know?


    They've worked every single day since No. 1st, except Thanksgiving day. Every saturday, every sunday. As to overtime on those days, that hasn't been mentioned, but the DOJ spokesperson said there's been no "days off" except 11/24. They did work Veterans Day, because people have posted about licenses with issue dates of 11/11/11, just as there's been postings for issue dates for every sat & sun.

    Even though I've been one of DOJ's biggest critics, I have to give credit where credit is due. They are trying, and I've never criticized the workers using the system they were given, nor see any reason to in the future. My beef all along has been with the organization (or lack of) with the system in place to see that they're processed in order received... which would benefit DOJ too, in meeting the deadlines. It's difficult to meet a deadline if you don't deal with the "oldest" first.
    Last edited by safcrkr; 12-04-2011 at 12:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiscollector View Post
    "Fourty-five days expires on Monday, 19 December for some"

    Not really..............

    45 days would be around Dec 16th depending on how you look at it.

    All of the apps hand delivered on the 1st have been completed and issued. So that leaves apps that were received on the 2nd and later.

    So as of close of business on the 16th, the DOJ has the great possibility to go late on an app.

    The clock window would start when the app was received by DOJ and end when DOJ gives it to the post office. The post office to you time would not count.

    In my opinion apps received on Nov 1st thru Nov 4th will make the 45 day.

    Apps received on Nov 5th and later could most likely miss the 45 days.

    My wife's app was received on Nov 3rd and she still has not received it.
    I would say it's safe to assume it was in DOJ's hands no later than 2 delivery days (no sundays, holidays) after it was picked up at the mailbox where it was mailed. In many cases, it was probaly there the next day, but that's not a certainty.... depends on how far you are from Madison. So if you mailed on the 1st, your deadline is "likely" the 16th or 17th of Dec. Add 46 or 47 days to the day you mailed (if mailed before last daily pick-up at your P.O.), and that'd be your deadline for issuance or denial (doesn't mean it will be 'returned' to you in 47 days... add a few more for return mailing).

    edit to add: Because the law does have the deadlines in it, which specifies "X" number of days "from day received", DOJ is required by the law to accurately keep track of all "days received".
    Last edited by safcrkr; 12-04-2011 at 02:18 PM.

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    Regular Member markush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiscollector View Post
    If you have a receipt, you are gold and nothing DOJ says will over ride it.
    Except when they say, Sorry we didn't make the 45 day deadline we'll get to your app as soon as we can...nanner nanner naaanner

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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    For those of us who don't have 45 fingers and toes to count on, here is how the 45 day period works out:
    Date 45
    Recvd Days
    1-Nov 16-Dec
    2-Nov 17-Dec
    3-Nov 18-Dec
    4-Nov 19-Dec
    5-Nov 20-Dec
    6-Nov 21-Dec
    7-Nov 22-Dec
    8-Nov 23-Dec
    9-Nov 24-Dec
    10-Nov 25-Dec
    11-Nov 26-Dec
    12-Nov 27-Dec
    13-Nov 28-Dec
    14-Nov 29-Dec
    15-Nov 30-Dec
    16-Nov 31-Dec
    17-Nov 1-Jan
    18-Nov 2-Jan
    19-Nov 3-Jan
    20-Nov 4-Jan
    21-Nov 5-Jan
    22-Nov 6-Jan
    23-Nov 7-Jan
    24-Nov 8-Jan
    25-Nov 9-Jan
    26-Nov 10-Jan
    27-Nov 11-Jan
    28-Nov 12-Jan
    29-Nov 13-Jan
    30-Nov 14-Jan
    1-Dec 15-Jan
    Dave
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    They are working hard, We should give the workers some credit.

    Quote Originally Posted by safcrkr View Post
    They've worked every single day since No. 1st, except Thanksgiving day. Every saturday, every sunday. As to overtime on those days, that hasn't been mentioned, but the DOJ spokesperson said there's been no "days off" except 11/24. They did work Veterans Day, because people have posted about licenses with issue dates of 11/11/11, just as there's been postings for issue dates for every sat & sun.

    Even though I've been one of DOJ's biggest critics, I have to give credit where credit is due. They are trying, and I've never criticized the workers using the system they were given, nor see any reason to in the future. My beef all along has been with the organization (or lack of) with the system in place to see that they're processed in order received... which would benefit DOJ too, in meeting the deadlines. It's difficult to meet a deadline if you don't deal with the "oldest" first.
    I say we give them some credit. It looks like they will get about 75-80 percent of the big influx done within the 45 day limit. I doubt that they will be past a week late on any application.

    It is better to have good relations with the people who are doing the work, than not.

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    From Safcrkr, you are correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by markush View Post
    600 a day average (that's what i get) or 940 (your figure) for every work day still works out to an average of 600 a day since the 1st of Nov. There's different ways of getting to the same final number...be it one person doing 600 a day or 60 people doing 10 a day it's all the same to me. In the end all I care about is how long it takes them to get to the 30,000 permits issued area. That's where I figure mine will be.
    I figure they will get 30,000 processed before Christmas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiscollector View Post
    Persons not using a form of delivery confirm or a means of positive receipt dont have much of a leg to stand on when counting their days.

    If you dont have a receipt, DOJ could and can claim that the 45 days starts when your check was deposited in their bank.

    Yes we all know thats bull.....BUT without a receipt, it would be hard to prove otherwise.

    Unless of course your app is stamped by DOJ at some point. Even then your app could be stamped days later than it was actually received.

    If you have a receipt, you are gold and nothing DOJ says will over ride it.

    If your USPS receipt is 3 days prior to a DOJ stamp, then DOJ cant use their stamp date as the 45 start date.
    If your envelope contained 5 sheets of paper or more, you were likely over the single 44 cent stamp postage. A copy of training, 3 pages of application, and an affirmation sheet if necessary makes 5. Because I had 6 (those 5 sheets and also sent copy of DL), my postage was 64 cents. I paid at the P.O. counter (didn't use stamps) and asked for a receipt, with 9 digit zip-code of destination mailed to. P.O. box is last 4 digits of 9 digit zip, which gives me proof of mailing a $.64 envelope to 53707-7130 (DOJs P.O. box), at 9:03 AM, 11/1/11. I have copy of check, stamped at DOJ's bank (U.S. Bank) on 11/14, same date as so many others who mailed on 1st or 2nd day. I cannot prove when they received it, but I got a pretty good case that DOJ had mine no later than the 3rd.

    Besides all that CYA stuff... because of the deadline, DOJ is required by law to keep track of all "dates received" of all applications. They cannot even attempt to meet any deadline if they do not have all that info. They must have on file the date an app was received, if they cashed your check (which proves that they do indeed have it). I DO NOT think they'll "lie" about anybody's deadline claim. That would be illegal, and we are talking about the "Department of Justice". (NOT sarcasm)
    Last edited by safcrkr; 12-04-2011 at 01:52 PM.

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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    It would be interesting to know how long it takes our banks and credit unions to clear a check from DOJ and thus increase perceived processing time. I will call my CU on Monday to find out. Although in the beginning, they weren't waiting for the checks to clear, according to my experience.

    Forms submitted: 11-1
    License issued: 11-5
    Check cashed: 11-8
    License received: 11-9
    License Number: 1100's
    Dave
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    .. if it's any help...

    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    It would be interesting to know how long it takes our banks and credit unions to clear a check from DOJ and thus increase perceived processing time. I will call my CU on Monday to find out. Although in the beginning, they weren't waiting for the checks to clear, according to my experience.

    Forms submitted: 11-1
    License issued: 11-5
    Check cashed: 11-8
    License received: 11-9
    License Number: 1100's
    My wife has worked at a bank for 20+ years. She knows how this works way better than I do. She looked at my check (a copy of both front & rear is available in our on-line banking account at her bank) and she "deciphered" the stamps on the back. There's two... the one DOJ puts on there endorsing the check, and the stamp from the bank (where deposited) when they receive it and enter it into their system. This is the one that tells you exactly when it was deposited. For example sake... the dated "stamp of deposit" on my check is from U.S. Bank, and was on 11/14/11, and it "cleared" my bank (funds were withdrawn from my account electronically) the next day, but didn't get posted to our account until after close of business, on 11/15/11 (she checked before leaving work at 4:30, wasn't cleared yet. I checked again later that day, after dinner from home computer, and it was). She said that one business day is typical, but not all banks are as fast... some might take one more business day in posting to your account and withdrawing the funds. (fund withdrawal is the "clearing" process).

    edit to add: if you use the same bank as the one where deposited, it usually "clears" the same day if it's deposited early enough in the day. So anyone using U.S. Bank likely has the same day for deposit and the clearing process.
    Last edited by safcrkr; 12-04-2011 at 03:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    It would be interesting to know how long it takes our banks and credit unions to clear a check from DOJ and thus increase perceived processing time. I will call my CU on Monday to find out. Although in the beginning, they weren't waiting for the checks to clear, according to my experience.

    Forms submitted: 11-1
    License issued: 11-5
    Check cashed: 11-8
    License received: 11-9
    License Number: 1100's
    Dave, in looking at your numbers, your license was issued on a Saturday. Is the 8th (following Tuesday) the date your check "cleared" your bank (posted to your account), or was it deposited that day? If it was cleared on the 8th, it was likely deposited by DOJ on monday the 7th... which would be the earliest possible deposit day after your Saturday issuing. If the 8th was "clearing" day, it could've even been deposited on Friday, the 4th. (no transactions go through the system on weekends).
    Last edited by safcrkr; 12-04-2011 at 03:35 PM.

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    Just because they say they are working 7 days a week does not mean that the whole crew is working 7 days a week. Maybe just the cleaning crew is in on the weekends. Also maybe they split the crew and you work 4 on and 3 off and so on.

  24. #24
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by safcrkr View Post
    Dave, in looking at your numbers, your license was issued on a Saturday. Is the 8th (following Tuesday) the date your check "cleared" your bank (posted to your account), or was it deposited that day? If it was cleared on the 8th, it was likely deposited by DOJ on monday the 7th... which would be the earliest possible deposit day after your Saturday issuing. If the 8th was "clearing" day, it could've even been deposited on Friday, the 4th. (no transactions go through the system on weekends).
    My point was that my numbers seemed to indicate that they issued my license (11-5) before the check cleared (11-8). They don't appear to be following that practice any more.
    Dave
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    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    My point was that my numbers seemed to indicate that they issued my license (11-5) before the check cleared (11-8). They don't appear to be following that practice any more.
    I believe they do not tie the processing of the license to the clearing of the check. It's just that they had so few applications at 1st that the licenses were printed before the checks cleared. Nowadays, they deposit the checks before the background check and the background check is taking the time.

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